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2019/09/18 00:15:32
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone who thinks that Goto is the worst that BL ever published never read anything by Ian Watson.
I don't know him, what did he write and why was it so bad?
My personnal worst author is Andy Hoar. He mostly wrote codexes and was rather good at writting technical description of things and events, but is horrible at narrative. He wrote the book Huunt for Voldorius in which Raven Guard and White Scars unite to kill a daemon prince. The text is filled with useless dialogues, characters are flatter then cardboards and action scenes are written with all the tension and excitement of a guy retelling the scenes of Die Hard 2 six years after he saw the movie the last time. He also wrote a few short stories about the Iron Warriors and they are even worse. When it comes to naming characters, he's even worst then George Lucas, or whoever named people in World of Warcraft or the morron who came up with Ferrus Manus Primarch of the Iron Hand, Corvus Corax Primarch of the Raven Guard and Alpharius of the Alpha Legion.
Fastest way to be introduced is to go watch the "If the Emperor Had A Podcast" episode where they dive in-depth to his book "Inquisitor".
2019/09/18 00:34:21
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Goodness, the people who wrote that are awfully angry and edgy aren't they.
One of the three primary sources of background info for some people. I despair for this hobby sometimes...
I like 1D4chan. At least the rage there is tongue-in-cheek. The rage here on Dakka on the other hand...
As for good writers and bad, the bad is mostly easily avoidable if you just pick what the community as a whole seems to agree is excellent. Aside from Into the Maelstrom, which I read as a kid, and don't really recall, my first foray into Warhammer literature was the first three Heresy books, because of a combination of coming highly recommended in general, and coming as part of a Humble Bundle. I thoroughly enjoyed them, which inspired me to try some actual 40k stuff. Asking for recommendations mostly pointed me back towards Abnett. I'm now half way through the second Gaunt's Ghosts book, and I have to say, it's only OK. He name drops a lot of original traitor legions as all fighting in this one pocket of space, and while the rate at which Guardsmen can kill them is perhaps reflective of current meta, it kind of gaks all over their lore. It seems even Abnett needed a few years to lift his craft from the mediocrity of Gaunt's Ghosts to the excellence of Horus Rising.
2019/09/18 04:07:29
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Crimson wrote: Ian Watson has also won a pile of literary awards and wrote the story for Spielberg's film A.I. so I'm not really sure how terrible he could be.
\
right a lot of the "bad" elements of his novels are proably more 40k not being as fleshed out when he was writing so him having to take creative liberties more.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/09/18 04:21:29
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Crimson wrote: Ian Watson has also won a pile of literary awards and wrote the story for Spielberg's film A.I. so I'm not really sure how terrible he could be.
\
right a lot of the "bad" elements of his novels are proably more 40k not being as fleshed out when he was writing so him having to take creative liberties more.
Then explain Mother Gullet, the Calexus Genestealer (whom Drago wants to bang in her Genestealer disguise), all the sexual content and the Chaos Squats.
2019/09/18 04:25:59
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Crimson wrote: Ian Watson has also won a pile of literary awards and wrote the story for Spielberg's film A.I. so I'm not really sure how terrible he could be.
\
right a lot of the "bad" elements of his novels are proably more 40k not being as fleshed out when he was writing so him having to take creative liberties more.
Then explain Mother Gullet, the Calexus Genestealer (whom Drago wants to bang in her Genestealer disguise), all the sexual content and the Chaos Squats.
None of that sounds particularly like good writing, but his first series of novels was set, what 4 to 5 years into the setting ? That's pretty much set in 2nd which to my understanding had just as much oddness compared to the soft reboot that was third in both rules and general background.
2019/09/18 04:34:39
Subject: Re:C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
None of that sounds particularly like good writing, but his first series of novels was set, what 4 to 5 years into the setting ? That's pretty much set in 2nd which to my understanding had just as much oddness compared to the soft reboot that was third in both rules and general background.
I can forgive Imperial Fist for the wonkiness due to age there is a lot of other stuff that makes you question some things about his inspirations.
It's also surprisingly hard to find excerpts of his writing:
From Harlequin by Ian Watson, one of the Old School novels.
Grimm seemed determined to tease that robust knight. 'Huh, I've hung around with Astartes before - but I never had a chance to find out what's under the groin-hauberk. Never shared vibroshowers with our potent warriors. If you don't mind me asking, are you . . . ahem . . . modified, in what one might call the genial part?'
Lex was almost too preoccupied with the intimate massage by alien hands to take offence. [Meh'lindi was massaging an injured Jaq while in Eldar form. She's a shapeshifting Callidus assassin and Lex found her odd.]
'One hears talk of gene-seeds,' hinted Grimm.
'That's a sacred matter,' growled Lex. 'Those are in our progenoid glands.' He slapped his chest and neck. 'Here, and here.'
'You do have a lot of extra organs. I was wondering if any regular organs got deleted to make space.'
'Kill a Marine and find out!' snapped Lex. How dare this stunted thing interrupt his concentration on the massage. 'Our progenoid glands create germ cells corresponding to our special organs. Thus new implants can be cultured. Does that satisfy you, abhuman pest?'
'Actually, I was wondering how much you oughta be told about what's what - with Jaq's approval. Or whether you might be a bit unstable, pardon the expression, with all your superhuman hormones and no regular outlet, as it were.'
[Cut: a brief description of Meh'lindi's ministrations and Jaq's injuries.]
'Hear me,' Lex said to Grimm. 'We Fists supremely subliminate our animal urges by means of art. By the art of war.'
2019/09/18 05:19:58
Subject: Re:C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
I haven't read any of those novels but yea given that GW in general tends to minimize any kind of overt sexual talk and most novels don't get to soapy in a that kind of way, that was a really weird thing to read.
That actually read like a bad porn script or a parody of 40k were an inquisitor took a marine to go get a massage and it did not go well.
2019/09/18 07:11:42
Subject: Re:C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I haven't read any of those novels but yea given that GW in general tends to minimize any kind of overt sexual talk and most novels don't get to soapy in a that kind of way, that was a really weird thing to read.
That actually read like a bad porn script or a parody of 40k were an inquisitor took a marine to go get a massage and it did not go well.
Well considering he has a smut novel to his name (published in '72) it's not really a surprise.
2019/09/18 08:58:50
Subject: Re:C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
I kind of like Watson's novels for what they are. They're a product of the 1e / early 2e universe, and for me, they really captured the absurd horror and black humour of that period.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
2019/09/18 09:26:57
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
It's all subjective. I enjoyed inquisitor and Space Marine (the latter despite not-skating marine Scouts and backside brands). On the other hand I found Betrayer to be such distilled drivel it's put me off the HH saga completely. (A lucky escape from that behemoth I think).
2019/09/18 10:21:43
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Goodness, the people who wrote that are awfully angry and edgy aren't they.
One of the three primary sources of background info for some people. I despair for this hobby sometimes...
Whilest i do not reccomend ID4 Chan, Goto's article on it, is , how to put it, excactly the right place in combination with the right people to be angry about him.
And you can bet on the wierdos at ID4Chan that they succesfully will list any transgression of him.
(Sidenote, go to the lexicanum if you want a better lore source)
I know. I tend to gravitate towards Lexicanum.
Too many people nowadays solely get their background knowledge from 1d4chan, memes and The Emperor text to speech (a series that frankly should have never made it past the pilot) series and it is seriously damaging to this hobby.
I disagree - that site is truely Epic.
My sole piece of evidence is this. Story time with Bjorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Ian Watson books were standard Sci Fi fare for that time - you may not have read lots of books of that era but there was a lot of 'sexual' writing, possibly due to the target demographics interests. It was however found that pulp books with it did better than pulp books without it.
in terms of story Watsons books were better than most standard bolter porn BL adventures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 10:25:58
2019/09/18 10:27:07
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/09/18 13:38:50
Subject: Re:C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Elemental wrote: I kind of like Watson's novels for what they are. They're a product of the 1e / early 2e universe, and for me, they really captured the absurd horror and black humour of that period.
I'm with ya, I actually rank the Inquisition War trilogy as some of the best 40k fluff out there, it's full of all sorts of wacky grimdark dystopian "Heavy Metal/Judge Dredd" stuff that really hits the core of what 40k started out as. I think 40k could use a return to a lot of that, I think modern 40k has gone a wee bit too far down the High Fantasy route comparatively.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2019/09/18 15:20:14
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Then explain Mother Gullet, the Calexus Genestealer (whom Drago wants to bang in her Genestealer disguise), all the sexual content and the Chaos Squats.
It was a Callidus assassin, not a Culexus (which would have in fact been very stupid considering genestealers psychic nature) that had a genestealer disguise, and it was an interesting concept revealing how Callidus could push their shapeshifting beyond strictly human forms.
Elemental wrote: I kind of like Watson's novels for what they are. They're a product of the 1e / early 2e universe, and for me, they really captured the absurd horror and black humour of that period.
I'm with ya, I actually rank the Inquisition War trilogy as some of the best 40k fluff out there, it's full of all sorts of wacky grimdark dystopian "Heavy Metal/Judge Dredd" stuff that really hits the core of what 40k started out as. I think 40k could use a return to a lot of that, I think modern 40k has gone a wee bit too far down the High Fantasy route comparatively.
Fully agree. It can seem a bit wacky to someone just reading it now compared to all the more current fluff, but the Inquisition War trilogy was interesting for it's time and pushed the boundaries of the 40k universe when it was originally released.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/18 15:27:15
2019/09/18 16:45:03
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
Goodness, the people who wrote that are awfully angry and edgy aren't they.
One of the three primary sources of background info for some people. I despair for this hobby sometimes...
Whilest i do not reccomend ID4 Chan, Goto's article on it, is , how to put it, excactly the right place in combination with the right people to be angry about him.
And you can bet on the wierdos at ID4Chan that they succesfully will list any transgression of him.
(Sidenote, go to the lexicanum if you want a better lore source)
I know. I tend to gravitate towards Lexicanum.
Too many people nowadays solely get their background knowledge from 1d4chan, memes and The Emperor text to speech (a series that frankly should have never made it past the pilot) series and it is seriously damaging to this hobby.
I disagree - that site is truely Epic.
My sole piece of evidence is this. Story time with Bjorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Ian Watson books were standard Sci Fi fare for that time - you may not have read lots of books of that era but there was a lot of 'sexual' writing, possibly due to the target demographics interests. It was however found that pulp books with it did better than pulp books without it.
in terms of story Watsons books were better than most standard bolter porn BL adventures.
Agreed! Dont forget the sly marbo article or the most epic of all, the quaint story of Kharn the Betrayer....one hell of a guy!
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer
2019/09/18 21:31:26
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone who thinks that Goto is the worst that BL ever published never read anything by Ian Watson.
My personal author beef is with Henry Zou. I read Emperor’s mercy and decided to shun the man forever. Barely remember the book today but I still shun the name.
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2019/09/19 14:41:06
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
30k White Scars. Move Through Cover and reroll 1s to wound if you end your move at least 6" from where you started has got to be at least Terminator parkour.
Goodness, the people who wrote that are awfully angry and edgy aren't they.
One of the three primary sources of background info for some people. I despair for this hobby sometimes...
Whilest i do not reccomend ID4 Chan, Goto's article on it, is , how to put it, excactly the right place in combination with the right people to be angry about him.
And you can bet on the wierdos at ID4Chan that they succesfully will list any transgression of him.
(Sidenote, go to the lexicanum if you want a better lore source)
I know. I tend to gravitate towards Lexicanum.
Too many people nowadays solely get their background knowledge from 1d4chan, memes and The Emperor text to speech (a series that frankly should have never made it past the pilot) series and it is seriously damaging to this hobby.
I disagree - that site is truely Epic.
My sole piece of evidence is this. Story time with Bjorn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Ian Watson books were standard Sci Fi fare for that time - you may not have read lots of books of that era but there was a lot of 'sexual' writing, possibly due to the target demographics interests. It was however found that pulp books with it did better than pulp books without it.
in terms of story Watsons books were better than most standard bolter porn BL adventures.
Agreed! Dont forget the sly marbo article or the most epic of all, the quaint story of Kharn the Betrayer....one hell of a guy!
Yeah Goto is the worst in a crowded field by a large margin, also Ian Watson's books were great at the time they released and while they feel weird now they captured the RT era pretty well.
1d4chan is an awesome read and the Bjorn series of stories are pretty epic with Bjorns happy ending being a favourite. In fact I am working on a blood raven Bjorn as a side project at the moment.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/09/19 15:07:15
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone who thinks that Goto is the worst that BL ever published never read anything by Ian Watson.
My personal author beef is with Henry Zou. I read Emperor’s mercy and decided to shun the man forever. Barely remember the book today but I still shun the name.
I read all three of his books and I don't know how I really feel about them. I don't hate them but they didn't set the world on fire if you get my meaning.
2019/09/19 15:11:28
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone who thinks that Goto is the worst that BL ever published never read anything by Ian Watson.
My personal author beef is with Henry Zou. I read Emperor’s mercy and decided to shun the man forever. Barely remember the book today but I still shun the name.
I read all three of his books and I don't know how I really feel about them. I don't hate them but they didn't set the world on fire if you get my meaning.
Also he was the one booted for plagiarism right?
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/09/19 19:04:03
Subject: C. S. Goto was not the worst BL writer ever.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone who thinks that Goto is the worst that BL ever published never read anything by Ian Watson.
My personal author beef is with Henry Zou. I read Emperor’s mercy and decided to shun the man forever. Barely remember the book today but I still shun the name.
I read all three of his books and I don't know how I really feel about them. I don't hate them but they didn't set the world on fire if you get my meaning.
Also he was the one booted for plagiarism right?
From 1d4chan:
Sadly Zou seems to have fallen from grace after it was accused that Flesh and Iron contained passages plagiarized from a contemporary American soldier's memoir, House To House.
There's a difference between drawing inspiration, and basically copying it near word for word, or taking an idea like this. This review does an excellent job:
"The shocking plagiarism is of course the worst part. Zou has lifted characters and passages wholesale from David Bellavia's excellent Iraq War memoir 'House To House'. The worst example of which can be found on p192 of Flesh And Iron, where we see Colonel Baeder throw a smoke grenade so a dying insurgent can not see his children prior to his death, Sergeant Bellavia does exactly the same thing on p.44 of 'House to House':
Flesh And Iron
"He had done it to deny the father a chance to see his children one last time. The men he lost in Lauzon and all the good soldiers killed under his command had not been given the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones...The last Baeder saw of the dying man...utterly despondent as he tried to find his children through the thickening smoke. Baeder had denied him the last chance to say goodbye. For some reason, Baeder felt a thrill of joy. It was something he had not wanted to become.They had made him this way."
House To House
"...but also to deny their father a chance to say good-bye. My brothers who died in the field got no such opportunity to say good-bye to those they loved, and I will afford none to this man... Their father, utterly despondent..as the white smoke filled the air around him... I robbed him of his final earthly joy. I delighted as I watched his life ebb away..What have I become?"
The central units in both books are also known as 'the Ramrods'. Sergeant Major Pulver from Flesh and Iron, seems copied from Sergeant Major Faulkenberg in House To House - Faulkenberg gives up a superior technology rifle for a lesser one to help another soldier (p.62 Bellavia) and Pulver does too (p.275 Zou), their physical descriptions are near identical (p.211 of Zou and p.163 Bellavia). Depictions of a wounded soldier are also near identical in both books, complete with references to their lives being changed and rolling onto their stomachs (p.306 Zou). Insurgents mimic the voices of the US Army (p.205 Bellavia) and the insurgents do the same to the Imperial Guard (p.222 Zou)."
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT 
