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tneva82 wrote: Nobody at the studio ever got inspiration to do anything about squats that wouldn't have felt lame. They ran into issue with whole biker theme resulting in dwarves being more of a joke army. This led to death of faction before codex came out
My Biker gang never felt lame.
GW just wanted to go apeshit on eldar & marines instead.
I would almost take anything other than being nid food.
No the reason was literally they didn't have anything they felt inspired. They didn't like the biker gang theme but couldn't come up with anything that sparked their inspiration.
People claimed it was sales but squats sold out more than several other lines that never got killed off.
It's a cop out excuse. They had no problem releasing 3 marine codices, which were slight variations on one another. That's about as uninspired as you can get - hey this totally different and new army is 99% identical to the last one we released but it's SOOOO creative and new.
They could have easily made squats a slight variation on Guard, or admech, or both, or marines or whatever.
tneva82 wrote: Nobody at the studio ever got inspiration to do anything about squats that wouldn't have felt lame. They ran into issue with whole biker theme resulting in dwarves being more of a joke army. This led to death of faction before codex came out
My Biker gang never felt lame.
GW just wanted to go apeshit on eldar & marines instead.
I would almost take anything other than being nid food.
No the reason was literally they didn't have anything they felt inspired. They didn't like the biker gang theme but couldn't come up with anything that sparked their inspiration.
People claimed it was sales but squats sold out more than several other lines that never got killed off.
Yeah back in the day they pretty much just did what they wanted this resulted in most of them just doing there own armies, it is really easy to guess who did what given personal preferences. Basicly they all refused to do squats and the viking theme got kicked over to space wolves.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
Yeah, the myth that GW had some sort of weird vendetta against squats persists. I think it's just a manifestation of the phenomenon where fans start to see shadows and plots against their army.
Everything GW has ever said has basically boiled down to them feeling painted into a corner with squats. They clearly wanted to do new races, as they introduced three new factions in 3rd edition alone. I think they just felt boxed in with every aspect of the army. the lore was fine, but nowhere near as detailed as the Marines, as fresh as the Eldar, or as relatable as IG. In terms of design... I mean, how do you portray an army that's built around slow, shooting units and not overlap with IG? And finally, that model range was getting very tired by the mid 90s. They would need a lot of work to resuscitate, and I think they just gave up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote: It's a cop out excuse. They had no problem releasing 3 marine codices, which were slight variations on one another. That's about as uninspired as you can get - hey this totally different and new army is 99% identical to the last one we released but it's SOOOO creative and new.
They could have easily made squats a slight variation on Guard, or admech, or both, or marines or whatever.
Not really. the reason GW could easily make BA and DA is because those two armies shared roughly 80% of their models with Ultramarines. BA added a few things, such as Death Company and the Baal, had a few characters, and had their own dreadnought, but otherwise used the basic SM stuff. DA were even easier, swapping out basic termies for Deathwing, and having their own speeder and dreadnought.
Squats would require a full model range to be essentially T4 guard. 2nd Edition is also when vehicles became common, although most squads were on foot. An easy design choice for Squats would be to make them the most mechanized army in the game, with a wide range of vehicles, from bikes to halftracks to tanks. But GW didn't have the resources to make those models back then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/10 13:46:54
2019/10/10 14:45:43
Subject: Re:Did Squats ever have a 2nd Edition Codex
Elbows wrote: There were several guys from GW at the time who admitted that they just didn't know where to go with Squats. At the time they were starting to leave the "Fantasy in Space" model and trying to go more grimdark. I'd suspect there was probably not a champion of the Squats at the studio. I don't believe I ever saw a single White Dwarf article or battle report featuring them. The decision may have been made pretty early in 2nd edition.
Here's something I did out of boredom this evening:
Spoiler:
Now if only there were some good Squat stand-in figures I'd maybe do up an army of them just for laughs (with a bespoke Codex).
You don't like mantic forgefathers?
Nope. I would consider buying them to hack and bust them up to try to make some, but I find 95% of Mantic's designs hideous or exceptionally boring/lazy/uninspired. That in turn, I find frustrating since they genuinely make "Squats" and Space Skaven...but they're mostly ugly as sin.
Polonius wrote: Yeah, the myth that GW had some sort of weird vendetta against squats persists. I think it's just a manifestation of the phenomenon where fans start to see shadows and plots against their army.
Everything GW has ever said has basically boiled down to them feeling painted into a corner with squats. They clearly wanted to do new races, as they introduced three new factions in 3rd edition alone. I think they just felt boxed in with every aspect of the army. the lore was fine, but nowhere near as detailed as the Marines, as fresh as the Eldar, or as relatable as IG. In terms of design... I mean, how do you portray an army that's built around slow, shooting units and not overlap with IG? And finally, that model range was getting very tired by the mid 90s. They would need a lot of work to resuscitate, and I think they just gave up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote: It's a cop out excuse. They had no problem releasing 3 marine codices, which were slight variations on one another. That's about as uninspired as you can get - hey this totally different and new army is 99% identical to the last one we released but it's SOOOO creative and new.
They could have easily made squats a slight variation on Guard, or admech, or both, or marines or whatever.
Not really. the reason GW could easily make BA and DA is because those two armies shared roughly 80% of their models with Ultramarines. BA added a few things, such as Death Company and the Baal, had a few characters, and had their own dreadnought, but otherwise used the basic SM stuff. DA were even easier, swapping out basic termies for Deathwing, and having their own speeder and dreadnought.
Squats would require a full model range to be essentially T4 guard. 2nd Edition is also when vehicles became common, although most squads were on foot. An easy design choice for Squats would be to make them the most mechanized army in the game, with a wide range of vehicles, from bikes to halftracks to tanks. But GW didn't have the resources to make those models back then.
That's a different argument. I was saying that being uninspired is a cop out because it is clear that inspiration is not what they were concerned about..
You can also just look at admech, and genestealer cults to see how they reinvent imperial gear continually.
They didn't have to be t4 guard any more than admech became techy guard.
This argument is contradictory - they WERE different and therefore not lacking in inspiration, or they weren't?
When GW released the guard codex in 2nd ed, they released a huge range of infantry models, which were all just representing the same unit entry in the book. It was the most indulgent event at the time.
And they already HAD models for every unit from rogue trader, so they didn't really even need to make new ones. Their vehicles were all imperial, so those were not need to be made.
GW just didn't want to make them. It had nothing to do with having inspiration or not having inspiration. If they wanted to, they could have.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/10 20:08:42
GW just didn't want to make them. It had nothing to do with having inspiration or not having inspiration. If they wanted to, they could have.
You are right in that they didn't want to make it but the reason for that WAS that no designer had "wow" feel from them. Leather coat biker dwarves? Didn't spark inspiration from them.
That was the reason. Simple as that. You don't want to do something that doesn't give you any inspiration whatsoever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 06:06:28
they also had Hearthguard and artillery pieces so not a one trick pony, but they were uninspired, but had no problem letting them shine in epic.
GW's excuses were as lame then as they are now. At least now we have 2 official Squats, just took them forever.
Plastic Sororitas are happening, who the funk knows? Plastic Thunderhawk & Plastic Rotundus are not out of the realm of possibility....and grots may fly out of my butt.
Regarding Squats never being in WD battle reports, they did feature a lot more in Epic which got quite some time in the limelights. Earlier this year they even threw in a blast from the past pamphlet (from magazine number ~150, I think) with the current one featuring the Battle of Golgotha where Commisar Yarrick got originally captured by Ghazkull. That had lots of Squats, zeppelins and trains and all, assisting the Guard regiment against the Ork horde (in vain, puny 'oomies).
The Epic Squat stuff was not really suitable for translation to 2nd edition 40K scale since most of it was basically superheavy or long range artillery.
Even in Epic, the Squats were lackluster because their units were IMO fairly weak or didn't synergize well with each other. The last Squat unit released for Epic I can recall was the Cyclops. That was the one that fired this beam straight ahead but which had the potential of knocking down multiple void shields. I think it was the only Squat unit that had any sort of "wow" factor.
Da-Rock wrote: I always thought that the current Genestealers setup with miners etc would have been a perfect fit for Squats.
I doubt they ever will bring them back, but it would be fun to see a new take on them.
I think it's a little too on the nose. Even for GSC, the mining angle gets weird given that there are presumably cults on industrial worlds, or ag worlds, or whatever.
I think to really do the Squats justice, you treat them as the "used future" straight sci-fi race. Every race in the game (except maybe Tau and Dark Eldar) are motivated by some sort of religious, ideological, or primal ambition. I would portray the Squats as mercantile, pragmatic, and focused on making money and staying alive. (Shout out to Kharadon Overlords here). Their aesthetic should be rugged, somewhat informal, and reflecting a culture that allows for actual individuality. Rules wise, GW can now make the full range of epic craziness, with tunnelers, fliers, tanks, etc. Squats will run to the durable side, with a good mix of shooting and melee, but with enough transport support to make up for low foot speed.
2019/10/11 20:43:48
Subject: Re:Did Squats ever have a 2nd Edition Codex
The Epic Squat stuff was not really suitable for translation to 2nd edition 40K scale since most of it was basically superheavy or long range artillery.
Even in Epic, the Squats were lackluster because their units were IMO fairly weak or didn't synergize well with each other. The last Squat unit released for Epic I can recall was the Cyclops. That was the one that fired this beam straight ahead but which had the potential of knocking down multiple void shields. I think it was the only Squat unit that had any sort of "wow" factor.
Whaaaaat? Squats were always super effective in Epic! Overlords, Gyrocopters, Bikers, Mole Mortars, Gyrocopters... they were cool and wrecked face!
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
The Epic Squat stuff was not really suitable for translation to 2nd edition 40K scale since most of it was basically superheavy or long range artillery.
Even in Epic, the Squats were lackluster because their units were IMO fairly weak or didn't synergize well with each other. The last Squat unit released for Epic I can recall was the Cyclops. That was the one that fired this beam straight ahead but which had the potential of knocking down multiple void shields. I think it was the only Squat unit that had any sort of "wow" factor.
Whaaaaat? Squats were always super effective in Epic! Overlords, Gyrocopters, Bikers, Mole Mortars, Gyrocopters... they were cool and wrecked face!
Squat Epic stuff was a hodgepodge of stuff. None of them were really outstanding compared to what other armies could field. At best they had stuff that was equivalent. Everyone had bikers for example, and Gyrocopters were basically skimmer tanks. Their big ticket items were also generally hideously vulnerable due to the way superheavy units worked in the original 2nd edition Epic rules. With all the dice being thrown around, they were easily destroyed by sheer volume of fire, despite their 2+ armor save or the odd void shield here and there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 21:47:16
2019/10/11 21:48:22
Subject: Re:Did Squats ever have a 2nd Edition Codex
How big would a 40k scale Landtrain be? I'm looking at my epic version and am trying to think if it would be baneblade wide or wider? Got my wheels turning for a fun(if not expensive) modeling project.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
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