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I know of about five people locally that shrugged and forked over the cash for it. So yeah... I expect prices of this magnitude to continue because people are buying it.

I think people are not cynical enough about how cynical GW is. They've been charging a massive premium for Specialist games (aside from bloodbowl) since they returned. I think GW has realized that they have a hardcore audience what will pay the price for AT, AI, or Necromunda, while they spin Bloodbowl and Underworld as lower cost games.

 Polonius wrote:
I think people are not cynical enough about how cynical GW is. They've been charging a massive premium for Specialist games (aside from bloodbowl) since they returned. I think GW has realized that they have a hardcore audience what will pay the price for AT, AI, or Necromunda, while they spin Bloodbowl and Underworld as lower cost games.

Its hard to run a company on hunting 'whales' though. Its not really sustainable if you ask me.

 argonak wrote:
Its hard to run a company on hunting 'whales' though. Its not really sustainable if you ask me.

Honestly, I'm not sure GW could survive without whales. It seems like their entire business plan is built on it. If people could just go without buying GW products for just one month in protest of high prices, it would probably bankrupt them because they'd never be able to sell that old product AND the thousands of dollars worth of new product coming out. Up until recently, they've precariously balanced the amount of GW products on the market, and if the balance shifts too far either way, GW is screwed.

I agree that it isn't sustainable. It's very profitable in the short term, but just look at what happened to the comic book market. GW is too niche to survive a market crash of their own creation.

 argonak wrote:
Its hard to run a company on hunting 'whales' though. Its not really sustainable if you ask me.

Whales are usually where most of the revenue comes from in the free-to-play games space where the term comes from. They actually sustain the game by being dedicated and that often helps keep up the player experience for lower-spenders too. I think this is reflected in 40k as well. A good game scene promotes more players in an area and IMO the whale-types help keep that going.

(That's not to say that arrangement is a great thing in wider terms, though)

It’s disappointing when the games are propped up by a few whales instead of enjoyed by many. GW stores used to be filled with folks of varying ages and backgrounds, now it’s just a few blokes rapidly approaching middle age who have been playing since they were kids and are the few who are willing to drop hundreds of dollars on a few sprues worth of plastic.

I started as a kid buying kits every few weeks with pocket money and chore money, I don’t see how a similar kid these days would get involved unless they have reasonably wealthy parents who are happy to pay for a hobby that lets them sit in a room for hours on end with the aforementioned blokes approaching middle age, lol.

and now it turns out the new scenery is not even compatible with the Underhive tiles... This is a gak show.

What is this I don't even.

Make the decision with your wallet and find other games to play then instead of supporting GW. Thats really all you can do.

 auticus wrote:
Make the decision with your wallet and find other games to play then instead of supporting GW. Thats really all you can do.

Enough people are clearly buying up that it’s not negatively affecting GW otherwise they would have stopped by now. Doesn’t stop me being disappointed at the state of affairs.

One of the great things about GW was the ubiquity, finding another game you also have to find players. The sad thing with GW specialist games is even though they have the biggest audience they aren’t establishing themselves like they did in days gone by. But GW sadly still makes enough money from the whales to keep them on the same path.

It’s just sad.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The sad thing with GW specialist games is even though they have the biggest audience they aren’t establishing themselves like they did in days gone by. But GW sadly still makes enough money from the whales to keep them on the same path.

I think Necromunda is the best game that GW puts out. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty awesome. And it could gain the mainstream success it deserves if GW actually gave it some real attention. It took a year to get all the gangs, and the previous two quarterly releases were Ambots and Kal Jericho - not exactly what the game needed most. The new Dark Uprising box is like the perfect Necromunda starter set, and I thought, "finally, GW is going to turn Necromunda into a real boy"... and then I saw the price tag. It's like GW doesn't want Necromunda to be popular.

Adeptus Titanicus is in a similar boat, but for different reasons. It could be something really special. It's not just the price that is keeping it from mainstream acceptance, but that's a big part of it.

 argonak wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think people are not cynical enough about how cynical GW is. They've been charging a massive premium for Specialist games (aside from bloodbowl) since they returned. I think GW has realized that they have a hardcore audience what will pay the price for AT, AI, or Necromunda, while they spin Bloodbowl and Underworld as lower cost games.

Its hard to run a company on hunting 'whales' though. Its not really sustainable if you ask me.

Except they obviously aren't. They have licensed video games that range from freemium on up, you have Underworlds, Kill team, or Warcry for low cost entry, AOS and 40k as flagships, and Specialist games as the premium, niche stuff.

Heaven Hill Distiller's don't keep the lights on selling $150 bottles of 18 year bourbon, but they're not going to turn down that market either. Specialists games are a niche even within GW gaming, and GW knows it'll never sell as many gangs as it will Primaris. If people are willing to pay the premium, that's what GW will charge.

 Sqorgar wrote:
It's like GW doesn't want Necromunda to be popular.

I don't think that's exactly the case, but I do think GW doesn't want Necromunda to be replacing 40k as people's game of choice. So they can jack the price to the heavens and let the whales soak it up - these are the folks with rooms full of unopened boxes - to pad their profit margin but they don't lose the regular players who spend 400-700+ per army to playing just Necromunda. After all, you could own every Necromunda force for the cost of one single 40k tournament army.

That or GW is using Specialist Games purely as a means of goosing quarterly profits. They won't lose 40k/AoS players over the cost of Necromunda.

Necromunda (and Mordheim) both had the fatal flaw of requiring a large amount of dedicated terrain. It was also best played in a long running campaign/league setting. Those are two things that make a game very unlikely to become popular.

Necro gangs are 42 bucks a piece, which have to be cheaper than the metals where back in the day. GW gets players on the books and terrain.

For me, GW is starting to twerk on the thin Conga line between enthusiasm and exhaustion.

The new terrain is fantastic. If I didn't already have 16 FW zone mortalis tiles I'd be buying a ton of it.

 Sqorgar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The sad thing with GW specialist games is even though they have the biggest audience they aren’t establishing themselves like they did in days gone by. But GW sadly still makes enough money from the whales to keep them on the same path.

I think Necromunda is the best game that GW puts out. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty awesome. And it could gain the mainstream success it deserves if GW actually gave it some real attention. It took a year to get all the gangs, and the previous two quarterly releases were Ambots and Kal Jericho - not exactly what the game needed most. The new Dark Uprising box is like the perfect Necromunda starter set, and I thought, "finally, GW is going to turn Necromunda into a real boy"... and then I saw the price tag. It's like GW doesn't want Necromunda to be popular.

Adeptus Titanicus is in a similar boat, but for different reasons. It could be something really special. It's not just the price that is keeping it from mainstream acceptance, but that's a big part of it.

The 2 player box for AT and how they released the titans shot the game in its feet, not the price for the actual titans.
remember, you only need 3-5 titans.
In terms of releases, not mutch they can do when AT is 30k and everything 30k is about that little internal conflict.


In terms of the Nec re release, the price is the only factor here, and that price is bumped by the terrain sprues.
Yes, you need terrain but that is what you buy from other brands.
Alot of card bord or mdf terrain out there that looks better then GWs plastic stuff, at a fraction of GW price.

As for lack of, or slow product release speed, that is the bane of specialist games anno 2019. GW simply dont have space for anything but 40k/aos in their release lineup.

You might only need 3 to 5 titans but they're individually expensive which puts people off.

I still don't even know the rules for AT because no one I know has bought it to play an intro game.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The 2 player box for AT and how they released the titans shot the game in its feet, not the price for the actual titans.
remember, you only need 3-5 titans.

Each. A full AT game will have about a $1,000 worth of stuff on the table. Even split between two players, I think that's more than a typical 40k battle. It's also absurd that the weapon sprues cost an additional $25-$40 and aren't sold anywhere but GW's online store, not to mention selling the boards and weapon cards separately from the models. They don't nickel and dime you, they quarter and dollar bill you.

In terms of the Nec re release, the price is the only factor here, and that price is bumped by the terrain sprues.

Part of the problem is that Necromunda is not a $300 starter box game. It's a supplementary game. People's second or even third choice for a game. Maybe not even that. It has a heck of a learning curve and new players tend to get choice paralysis during the initial step, building the models. Putting too much in a starter box is detrimental to new players being able to, you know, start the game. It is a game the desperately needs a gradual growth from simple to complex, from cheap to expensive. But Necromunda has it backwards! The starter set is expensive and complicated, but the rest of the game is less so!

 Polonius wrote:
Necromunda (and Mordheim) both had the fatal flaw of requiring a large amount of dedicated terrain. It was also best played in a long running campaign/league setting. Those are two things that make a game very unlikely to become popular.

Necro gangs are 42 bucks a piece, which have to be cheaper than the metals where back in the day. GW gets players on the books and terrain.

That's the rub though, they only get you on terrain if you are dead set on GW terrain. We play at my FLGS with some terrain from GW but the bulk majority from 3rd party companies. My gang/patrol (I play Enforcers) is GW but my neoprene mat is not, my buildings are not. Necromunda needs mass terrain so because of the price I turned to other companies for that. I'm looking forward to getting the subjugators from this new set but I'll wait till they are sold on their own.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Each. A full AT game will have about a $1,000 worth of stuff on the table. Even split between two players, I think that's more than a typical 40k battle

Not really, a typical 2k 40k game, without terrain will have the same amount or more on the table. Definitely much more including terrain (except both players would use core box models only)

I had a theory that GW is getting a bit gutsy with the prices because of the terrain. I think they're pretty much aware that most people aren't going to go do Necromunda PUG at their local FLGS and will want to invest in terrain for their own private group.

I mean, that's what I did. Never cared for terrain until Necromunda. And that was because I'm not keen on playing Necromunda with total strangers, considering how easy it is to be "that guy" with the rules as they are. It's a gentleman's game, and I won't consider you a gentleman unless I trust you enough to come over to my house and poop with the door open.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The 2 player box for AT and how they released the titans shot the game in its feet, not the price for the actual titans.
remember, you only need 3-5 titans.

Each. A full AT game will have about a $1,000 worth of stuff on the table. Even split between two players, I think that's more than a typical 40k battle. It's also absurd that the weapon sprues cost an additional $25-$40 and aren't sold anywhere but GW's online store, not to mention selling the boards and weapon cards separately from the models. They don't nickel and dime you, they quarter and dollar bill you.

Where do you get 1000$ from unless you include terrain?

A complete axiom mainple with only the weps that comes in the box runs at retail 300$. Warlord and reaver comes in two different versions at the same price iwith the difference beeing the weps included, warhounds has all weps included.
A unit of knights(3) is 35-40$ and is an optional add on.
So that is 330$ for a balanced and beginner freindly AT force at 1380p minus weapons(with weps it is at 1500-1700p range all depending on what you equip) that as far as i GUESS, is in the same region as a 2000p force in 40k. (can you tell me how mutch a 2000p force would cost in 40k?, cuz i dont play 40k.)


The rules box is 60$ and contains all the extras you need.
If you still need more terminals then the 2x of each you get in the rules box, you can now download and print them for free over at the GW community site.
But then again, you dont include the price of rules or terrain when you talk army prices.

But prices on AT GW terrain and seperated wep sprues is high, that i fully agree on.


Now, 390$ for everything 1 player needs minus terrain vs 290$ for 2 gangs, rules and a heap of terrain is easy to see that Nec is cheaper, but Nec is just a different version of 40k kill team.
And why would i spend so mutch on Nec when i guess i could get kill team mutch cheaper?(i guess cuz i dont know anything about kill team either)

From that point of view, AT cant realy be compared to Nec even tough AT is a skirmish game.
It fits better to compare it agasint 40k and in that regards, i dont feel i have spendt more on my AT titants then what i guess i would have used on a 40k army.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
The 2 player box for AT and how they released the titans shot the game in its feet, not the price for the actual titans.
remember, you only need 3-5 titans.

Each. A full AT game will have about a $1,000 worth of stuff on the table. Even split between two players, I think that's more than a typical 40k battle. It's also absurd that the weapon sprues cost an additional $25-$40 and aren't sold anywhere but GW's online store, not to mention selling the boards and weapon cards separately from the models. They don't nickel and dime you, they quarter and dollar bill you.

Where do you get 1000$ from unless you include terrain?

A complete axiom mainple with only the weps that comes in the box runs at retail 300$. Warlord and reaver comes in two different versions at the same price iwith the difference beeing the weps included, warhounds has all weps included.
A unit of knights(3) is 35-40$ and is an optional add on.
So that is 330$ for a balanced and beginner freindly AT force at 1380p minus weapons(with weps it is at 1500-1700p range all depending on what you equip) that as far as i GUESS, is in the same region as a 2000p force in 40k. (can you tell me how mutch a 2000p force would cost in 40k?, cuz i dont play 40k.)


The rules box is 60$ and contains all the extras you need.
If you still need more terminals then the 2x of each you get in the rules box, you can now download and print them for free over at the GW community site.
But then again, you dont include the price of rules or terrain when you talk army prices.

But prices on AT GW terrain and seperated wep sprues is high, that i fully agree on.


Now, 390$ for everything 1 player needs minus terrain vs 290$ for 2 gangs, rules and a heap of terrain is easy to see that Nec is cheaper, but Nec is just a different version of 40k kill team.
And why would i spend so mutch on Nec when i guess i could get kill team mutch cheaper?(i guess cuz i dont know anything about kill team either)

From that point of view, AT cant realy be compared to Nec even tough AT is a skirmish game.
It fits better to compare it agasint 40k and in that regards, i dont feel i have spendt more on my AT titants then what i guess i would have used on a 40k army.

For real, I was like "How are you spending $500 on an AT maniple unless you're using actual gold paint?" When the battle group was available you got a Warlord, Reaver, and 2 Warhounds for $145 on Amazon. Two of those and two weapon sprues is a hell of a lot less than $500. Four Warlords is 2000 points for $360.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

Where do you get 1000$ from unless you include terrain?

It was just a back of the napkin estimate based on getting a GME, two Reavers, and a Warhound (for each player). I now realize that it's a bit exaggerated because most games probably won't be played with two Warlord titans and Warhounds come two to a box.

(can you tell me how mutch a 2000p force would cost in 40k?, cuz i dont play 40k.)

I don't play 40k either, but I'd always heard around $300-$350. I'm sure it very much depends on which army, how old the sculpts are, and how many you need. AT is a younger game (no cheap old models) with fewer, very expensive models, so the variation in army prices happen in big jumps. For instance, trading a Reaver out for a Warlord is a $50 increase in cost.

But then again, you dont include the price of rules or terrain when you talk army prices.

I think that is starting to change, as terrain becomes more and more important to GW's product line. Already, they are making army-specific terrain, or making terrain a necessary part of the game (like Warcry's ravaged lands). It is shared between the players, or provided by the hosting environment, but if you represent both players and the hosting environment (like I do, when playing with my family), the terrain is a not insignificant expenditure that is often very necessary. At least with the GME, it is still at a discount from buying everything separately, to the point where you basically get the terrain for free.

Now, 390$ for everything 1 player needs minus terrain vs 290$ for 2 gangs, rules and a heap of terrain is easy to see that Nec is cheaper, but Nec is just a different version of 40k kill team. And why would i spend so mutch on Nec when i guess i could get kill team mutch cheaper?

Necromunda is a VERY different skirmish game from Kill Team. Basically, the only overlap is that they can share terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
For real, I was like "How are you spending $500 on an AT maniple unless you're using actual gold paint?" When the battle group was available you got a Warlord, Reaver, and 2 Warhounds for $145 on Amazon. Two of those and two weapon sprues is a hell of a lot less than $500. Four Warlords is 2000 points for $360.

To be fair, that battle group is a significant discount and not available anymore. Buying retail, it would cost you $235 for those four models. Two of those would cost you $470, pretty darn close to $500. Four warlords is also, retail, $440. And that's before getting the $60 rules package.

Basically, how close you get to $500 is largely dependent on how many Warlords you get.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
(can you tell me how mutch a 2000p force would cost in 40k?, cuz i dont play 40k.)

400-600$ depending on the faction and if there are discounted sets or core box models available (but including rules)

a 2k DeathGuard/Primaris army can be around 300$ with discount/ebay (4 times the half of the core box), a 2k horde army can go up to 800$

While I agree with you in principle it should be pointed at out that GW now considers itself a miniatures company first, game company second. Many of their competitors are releasing rules for free or at very minimal cost while GW charged us $50+ for rulebooks the size of dictionaries every few years that were nothing more than the same fluff with more extra rules to sell their newest models. Compound this with their rules being often bloated, inconsistent, in constant need of FAQs, and invalidated every few years by a new $50 rulebook. My favorite move they made was selling the mini rulebooks with box sets that were nothing more than scaled down versions of the BRB rules without even reformatting the text so it's easier to read and correcting any of the FAQs. They took the A4 rules, shrank it to size 6 font, and couldn't be bothered to edit the mistakes...

I actually really like how the AoS and 40k basic rules are now free, I have zero desire to work my bicep muscles having to tote a 700 page book full of pictures and stories to be able to play a board game. I thought games like Necromunda and Kill Team would benefit from sharing the same ruleset and being skirmish versions of the 40k rules. You'd then be selling the models as adjuncts to larger game systems that keep the same core mechanics while going into further detail with things like getting knocked down or specialist models within a squad.

Given that I bought a copy of the AT rules I had zero problem finding a digital version for my iPad. Fun fact: the binding of the AT rulebook that came with my GME box split within 6 days of me getting it, I know how to care for books and it wasn't my fault. I also find codices for armies I don't play so I can get an idea for how they play and what their stats look like because "know thy enemy" and I don't feel like wasting peoples' time reading over their army book before a game. I've given (and continue to give) GW many, many, many, many thousands of dollars for their models in the last 15 years but they way they've sold poorly made rulebooks, codices and army books in shorter cycles of built in obsolescence has made me jaded about collecting their books.

Circa $575 ish in New Zealand ahahah......

 Albertorius wrote:
and now it turns out the new scenery is not even compatible with the Underhive tiles... This is a gak show.

What is this I don't even.

I was thrilled at first to get a lot of new tiles for my 2D Necromunda games like they were provided in the Badzone Delta supplement. Alas, it won´t happen. I also read somewhere that the new chaos dudes don´t have rifles/shotguns but only pistols and hth weapons. Is this true? If it is, then it is another good reason to not buy the box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You might only need 3 to 5 titans but they're individually expensive which puts people off.

I still don't even know the rules for AT because no one I know has bought it to play an intro game.

Even the GW store in my home town didn´t get a box for intro games. Pretty pathetic.

 Fajita Fan wrote:


For real, I was like "How are you spending $500 on an AT maniple unless you're using actual gold paint?" When the battle group was available you got a Warlord, Reaver, and 2 Warhounds for $145 on Amazon. Two of those and two weapon sprues is a hell of a lot less than $500. Four Warlords is 2000 points for $360.

1: By the time the battlegroup box was released, i was only missing a warlord to complete my axiom, why would i buy a box containing 3 titans i allready owned?
2: Battlegroup box is no longer avalible, so you have to buy the titans induvidualy if you cant find a shop that sells the now OOP mentioned battlegroup.
Thats why i said a full axxiom is retail 300$ at the GW site.

Well the release of AT is very similar to this Necromunda box, gouge the early adopters then release the individual components later. If you’re just buying the Necromunda box for the terrain just wait as you’ll be able to get it (somewhat) cheaper later.

I don’t know why the AT battle group is now longer available, I had hoped a new battle group was on the way to help getting more players into the game but you gotta get those record profits somehow while complaining about recasts and 3D printing.