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BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

IMHO... this should be the case naked, where CSM's should be superior is purchasable upgrades, both in terms of standard wargear and chaos gifts.

sure your average bolt gun marine for the loyalists will have elite tactics and training that gives him the edge, but my CSM has some old heresy era war gear that makes him shootier, and a gift of nurgle that makes him tougher etc. - would be Ideal IMHO.

So basically the 3.5 CSM codex?

 Grimtuff wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

IMHO... this should be the case naked, where CSM's should be superior is purchasable upgrades, both in terms of standard wargear and chaos gifts.

sure your average bolt gun marine for the loyalists will have elite tactics and training that gives him the edge, but my CSM has some old heresy era war gear that makes him shootier, and a gift of nurgle that makes him tougher etc. - would be Ideal IMHO.

So basically the 3.5 CSM codex?

Pretty much yeah. Both that book and the new Marines releases are fantastic! Clearly made by fans and bursting with lore accurate rules and multiple powerful options.

The reason they are both horrible missteps is the complete lack of similar efforts for the armies that coexist(ed) with them

 Grimtuff wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

IMHO... this should be the case naked, where CSM's should be superior is purchasable upgrades, both in terms of standard wargear and chaos gifts.

sure your average bolt gun marine for the loyalists will have elite tactics and training that gives him the edge, but my CSM has some old heresy era war gear that makes him shootier, and a gift of nurgle that makes him tougher etc. - would be Ideal IMHO.

So basically the 3.5 CSM codex?

To be fair, at this point yeah

I just think we need instead of doctrines various tables and upgrades to craft our squads with their own upgrades (and maybe drawbacks for powerful ones? Ala dreadblades Damnations) and also for the love of all that is unholy FIX CSM ARMY TRAITS!!! Word bearers- Hey get ATSKNF... enjoy!... A lot of anger would be removed by updating the traits to something actually good.

Tbf most anger would be removed with functioning Legion traits and one or the other unit change.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
A lot of anger would be removed by updating the traits to something actually good.

I can only speak for myself, but I would be like "well it's something we should have had for years, I'm certainly not changing my opinion of GW", then move on immediately into complaining about core statlines and lack of Legion-specific psychic tables. Now if you excuse me, I have very important angry FB posts to write, I'm of course as deeply offended by the CA19 points cuts to the price of the basic CSM dudes as you all doubtlessly are.

We are living our best Chaos life

IMHO, Heretic Astartes should have extremely versatile loadout, and veteran-tier stats, sort of like Deathwatch.

Chosen could be a simple upgrade that gives the squad some kind of bonus special rule or something. Same with Havocs (although, I do like the new kit and acknowledge the base size is different).

Otherwise, CSM should be able to put down a squad of guys completely dedicated to Melee with power mauls and chainswords, or with nothing but Autocannons, etc. and fill the "Troops" slot.

IMHO, it fits their fluff better that the (few) CSM squads that would be in a Warband would be versatile and deadly veterans. Bump their toughness up to 5 all around, too.

nothing but autocanons seems a bit much, does ANY army have the ability to deploy TROOPS equipped with all heavy weapons?

BrianDavion wrote:
nothing but autocanons seems a bit much, does ANY army have the ability to deploy TROOPS equipped with all heavy weapons?

Iron Hands and Imperial Fists

BrianDavion wrote:
nothing but autocanons seems a bit much, does ANY army have the ability to deploy TROOPS equipped with all heavy weapons?

You can give 4/5 deathwatch veterans pretty much anything.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
nothing but autocanons seems a bit much, does ANY army have the ability to deploy TROOPS equipped with all heavy weapons?

You can give 4/5 deathwatch veterans pretty much anything.

And you still get Combi-Weapons on top of that.

You'd just end up with T4 1 wound marines that are over costed and would be avoided anyway

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
nothing but autocanons seems a bit much, does ANY army have the ability to deploy TROOPS equipped with all heavy weapons?

You can give 4/5 deathwatch veterans pretty much anything.

And you still get Combi-Weapons on top of that.

And for the same points as chosen.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
You'd just end up with T4 1 wound marines that are over costed and would be avoided anyway

This would be okay if they got defensive buff traits like some loyalists do. Or if you could get defensive Mark/Warp buffs.

Nurgle: +1 Toughness!

Tzeentch: +1 Invul save!

Slaneesh: 5+ FNP!

Khorne: *dies*

Honestly I think it is good. Loyalist are broken AF and are ruining a game that FINALLY was starting to be balanced. I hope all loyalist go up 15/20% in points and they fix some fething slowed IF doctrines that shouldn't exist at all.
I own Deamons, Orks, Nids and BA, we really didn't neeede another broken codex / supplements in the meta.
I feel for you but don't get jealous too fast.
They MUST be nerfed.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nurgle: +1 Toughness!

Tzeentch: +1 Invul save!

Slaneesh: 5+ FNP!

Khorne: *dies*

Khorne, Reroll charges. (yes screw the icon)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
Honestly I think it is good. Loyalist are broken AF and are ruining a game that FINALLY was starting to be balanced. I hope all loyalist go up 15/20% in points and they fix some fething slowed IF doctrines that shouldn't exist at all.
I own Deamons, Orks, Nids and BA, we really didn't neeede another broken codex / supplements in the meta.
I feel for you but don't get jealous too fast.
They MUST be nerfed.

optimistic, how long did it take again for the castellan?

No so long there is money to be made there will be no nerfs.
Then when everyone has bought the hotness that is after hotness then there will be a nerf.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nurgle: +1 Toughness!

Tzeentch: +1 Invul save!

Slaneesh: 5+ FNP!

Khorne: *dies*

Something along those lines, but there needs to be defense boosts available to every alignment if we're going to have 1W MeQs above 15pts be worth taking. There could be a common list available to everyone for X pts per model, 3.5 codex style, but then make them cheaper based on alignment or something. Like +1 T is normally 2 pts per model, but for Nurgle its 1pt.

I doubt we'd get something that granular, but we could get 2 part traits that contain defensive boosts like Loyalists did. Or it could be something like 1 part Legion traits, and then a second part God/Alignment trait off a list with ~4 traits per God (perhaps some overlap).

There's a lot of ways this could work if they wanted it to.

GW's mantra on chaos was always 'they get cult troops and daemons and daemon engines to make up for whatever'

the amount of units loyalists have not and general soup makes this redundant now.

The real reason for the salt is chaos does not have a niche. By widening all model ranges in 40k and standardizing (somewhat) the rules every army can have its shooty castle theme, its fast CC theme etc etc

the problem is in all areas of this normal marines will do it better than a chaos equivalent so why bother?

The only thing fluffy about a daemon weapon is the 2 hurts you... its profile is the same as <insert marine relic>
The only thing fluffy about a re-roll 1's to wound strat is the intro, <insert loyalist strat thats better>.
And often then things that are fluffy, that actually provide some flavour are often 'meh' on the tabletop for chaos and 'auto-include' for loyalists OR they are few and far between so suddenly every obilterator follows slaanesh and every unit spanks their VOTLW status every turn.

Funny thing is i see necrons a bit like chaos only a million times in a worse boat, they have like one army to even stand a chance with. Either they are lying dormant and not complaining like true necrons or mode sadder, have just stopped playing.

 Emicrania wrote:
Honestly I think it is good. Loyalist are broken AF and are ruining a game that FINALLY was starting to be balanced. I hope all loyalist go up 15/20% in points and they fix some fething slowed IF doctrines that shouldn't exist at all.
I own Deamons, Orks, Nids and BA, we really didn't neeede another broken codex / supplements in the meta.
I feel for you but don't get jealous too fast.
They MUST be nerfed.

Why do Ultramarines need to be nerfed? They've got a 52.5% win rate, in line with a bunch of other factions. Salamanders don't even manage to break 50%, do they deserve a nerf too? Even White Scars and Raven Guard are within half a percent of Chaos Daemons when ran undivided, does this mean we should nerf your Daemons because they ruin the meta?

By all means, slam the hammer down on Iron Hands, but stop being silly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Honestly I think it is good. Loyalist are broken AF and are ruining a game that FINALLY was starting to be balanced. I hope all loyalist go up 15/20% in points and they fix some fething slowed IF doctrines that shouldn't exist at all.
I own Deamons, Orks, Nids and BA, we really didn't neeede another broken codex / supplements in the meta.
I feel for you but don't get jealous too fast.
They MUST be nerfed.

Why do Ultramarines need to be nerfed? They've got a 52.5% win rate, in line with a bunch of other factions. Salamanders don't even manage to break 50%, do they deserve a nerf too? Even White Scars and Raven Guard are within half a percent of Chaos Daemons when ran undivided, does this mean we should nerf your Daemons because they ruin the meta?

By all means, slam the hammer down on Iron Hands, but stop being silly.

Something something Super Doctrines should be removed completely something something we don't need that many Relics and Stratagems something something complete

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Honestly I think it is good. Loyalist are broken AF and are ruining a game that FINALLY was starting to be balanced. I hope all loyalist go up 15/20% in points and they fix some fething slowed IF doctrines that shouldn't exist at all.
I own Deamons, Orks, Nids and BA, we really didn't neeede another broken codex / supplements in the meta.
I feel for you but don't get jealous too fast.
They MUST be nerfed.

Why do Ultramarines need to be nerfed? They've got a 52.5% win rate, in line with a bunch of other factions. Salamanders don't even manage to break 50%, do they deserve a nerf too? Even White Scars and Raven Guard are within half a percent of Chaos Daemons when ran undivided, does this mean we should nerf your Daemons because they ruin the meta?

By all means, slam the hammer down on Iron Hands, but stop being silly.

because is one part of an army over performs the ENTIRE army has to be nerfed!
*eye roll*

I agree 100% iron hands needs to be nerfed, every other chapter has a 2 part chapter tactic, iron hands have 3, that's a pretty clear sign of a likely power imbalance. likewise the iron hands super doctrine, 2 distinct effects (ignore movement AND re-roll 1s?) , compared to everyone else getting 1.

If you accept that the other Marine chapters are powerful but ultimately perhaps balanced, you can only conclude iron hands are over powered.

Remember when we all hated the Eldar because of 2 units? And the tau because of 3 units? Good times... anyways welcome to the tau’dar table.

macluvin wrote:
Remember when we all hated the Eldar because of 2 units? And the tau because of 3 units? Good times... anyways welcome to the tau’dar table.

sure except no one was screaming "nerf dire avengers" when the problem was wraith knights and wave serpants

 NurglesR0T wrote:
CSM "2.0".. I've never considered this a "new" codex.. it's a reprint that consolidated Vigilus. I'm guessing this was possibly GW testing the waters to see how the community would react to this sort of model republishing books with new content that trickles from campaign books and white dwarf etc.

Did not go well. Abort! Abort!

It would have been better if they just gave old owners a PDF with points. Not that we can't get those elsewhere, but it would have improved good will.

BrianDavion wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Remember when we all hated the Eldar because of 2 units? And the tau because of 3 units? Good times... anyways welcome to the tau’dar table.

sure except no one was screaming "nerf dire avengers" when the problem was wraith knights and wave serpants

I seen plenty of "nerf Eldar" calls in 7th edition. Tons even.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nurgle: +1 Toughness!

Tzeentch: +1 Invul save!

Slaneesh: 5+ FNP!

Khorne: *dies*

I think instead of super docs we just get marks back doing something more useful for us. I'd probably prefer that anyway.

 xeen wrote:

My main salt is that other factions are getting the mix and match traits and new psychic powers and we got none of that. And a sorcerer was the model that was released with PA!!!

Speaking as someone who plays DE - a race that got mix & match traits and absolutely nothing else - all I can say is that I am looking at the heaps of new Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems etc. that CSMs got with unparalleled envy.

 vipoid wrote:

 xeen wrote:

My main salt is that other factions are getting the mix and match traits and new psychic powers and we got none of that. And a sorcerer was the model that was released with PA!!!

Speaking as someone who plays DE - a race that got mix & match traits and absolutely nothing else - all I can say is that I am looking at the heaps of new Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems etc. that CSMs got with unparalleled envy.

Just one issue.
Only al get a Bonus warlord trait.

However what was done in the first pa was allready preety low from gw.....

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nurgle: +1 Toughness!

Tzeentch: +1 Invul save!

Slaneesh: 5+ FNP!

Khorne: *dies*

I think instead of super docs we just get marks back doing something more useful for us. I'd probably prefer that anyway.

I'd prefer the same. As it it stands right now Marks are mostly useless.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
I'd prefer the same. As it it stands right now Marks are mostly useless.

There is a bit of a problem in that unmarked units would be at a disadvantage.