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Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

Precisely.

Chaos 2.0 wouldn't have been that bad if it hadn't been what we got but real change. Personally, while I'm salty about the (ongoing... -_-) disparity I'm still more upset about the lack of mobility on our characters. We lost all mounts, all bike characters and the new characters we get are STILL on foot. And to add insult to injury they add a footslogging sorc sculpt...gee thanks...really needed that. And for the cherry on top, the new psyker doesn't do cult spells. I'll stop there as it would end in me rambling on, but yea I'm less bothered by what we got compared to what we DIDN'T get.

 Roknar wrote:
Chaos 2.0 wouldn't have been that bad if it hadn't been what we got but real change. Personally, while I'm salty about the (ongoing... -_-) disparity I'm still more upset about the lack of mobility on our characters. We lost all mounts, all bike characters and the new characters we get are STILL on foot. And to add insult to injury they add a footslogging sorc sculpt...gee thanks...really needed that. And for the cherry on top, the new psyker doesn't do cult spells. I'll stop there as it would end in me rambling on, but yea I'm less bothered by what we got compared to what we DIDN'T get.

The charachter no mobility thing started with the introduction of the exalted champion:
E.G. no jetpack and bike there allready. And that was in an edition were transports were actually worht a damn,

It's been bothering me since the start, but 2.0 relit that particular fire. Especially with the awkward apostle rules, which would be way less janky if he could actually move.
And they made a new model to go along with it.

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

Probably should adapt my sig now with the following.

"Loyalist marines"

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.

We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

IMHO... this should be the case naked, where CSM's should be superior is purchasable upgrades, both in terms of standard wargear and chaos gifts.

sure your average bolt gun marine for the loyalists will have elite tactics and training that gives him the edge, but my CSM has some old heresy era war gear that makes him shootier, and a gift of nurgle that makes him tougher etc. - would be Ideal IMHO.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

FERRUMITE wrote:
Honestly, I feel most of us wouldn't be so mad if they hadn't released a Chaos 2.0 codex. If GW just released a Vigilus Ablaze, and now F&F, people wouldn't be as mad. But since they released CSM 2.0, AND THEN DIRECTLY AFTER released SM 2.0, people are RIGHTFULLY upset, because the disparity between the two is absurd given how 2.0 was a glorified reprint. And given that CSM already got their 2.0, most of us have realized this is what we get for the foreseeable future, because we already had our 'update'.

And the previewed points for csm in ca2019 proves it. Cheaper than a loyalist TAC marine. Why? Because we won't be getting rules to equal loyalists.


We are officially INFERIOR MARINES.

IMHO... this should be the case naked, where CSM's should be superior is purchasable upgrades, both in terms of standard wargear and chaos gifts.

sure your average bolt gun marine for the loyalists will have elite tactics and training that gives him the edge, but my CSM has some old heresy era war gear that makes him shootier, and a gift of nurgle that makes him tougher etc. - would be Ideal IMHO.

I agree with this. Make Chaos Marines scary spectres of the Astartes past. Empowered by cruel Gods. Terrifying but more disorganized.

The salt is justified. I'm hoping that we get a new book next year but won't hold my breath.

You guys do realize "Marines" are good now primarily because most of the old school model line is going to eventually be squatted?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You guys do realize "Marines" are good now primarily because most of the old school model line is going to eventually be squatted?

What does this have to do with anything? Loyalist Old Marines have pretty good rules now. CSM and Chaos Terminators are not Primaris and just got new kits that will be around for a decade at least.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
What does this have to do with anything?

A lot? GW writes rules to promote model sales and the SM supplements have a lot to do with supporting the Primaris line.

Old models like Tacs and Land Raiders getting better rules is incidental. So why would you ever think that basic CSM would get some inexplicable boost to stay on the same level?

Yoyoyo wrote:

GW writes rules to promote model sales

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

CSM and Chaos Terminators just got new kits.

Yoyoyo wrote:

So why would you ever think that basic CSM would get some inexplicable boost to stay on the same level?

Bruh...

CSM did get boosted -- PA2 and now CA.

But I doubt you'd see any kind of Primaris-equivalent treatment unless they're releasing something like an Emperor's Children codex.

Yoyoyo wrote:
CSM did get boosted -- PA2 and now CA.

But I doubt you'd see any kind of Primaris-equivalent treatment unless they're releasing something like an Emperor's Children codex.

We're not talking about Primaris equivalent treatment. Chaos needs updated traits and something equivalent to doctrines. They got some new elite units in CSM v2 and new strats in PA2, but they didn't get what they need. I get that you really want to shoehorn this into the narrative about old marines going away, but it doesn't fit.

My main salt is not even with the comparison with the Imperial Marines. Imperial Marines have always had a better book then CSM other than 3.5.

My main salt is that other factions are getting the mix and match traits and new psychic powers and we got none of that. And a sorcerer was the model that was released with PA!!!

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
We're not talking about Primaris equivalent treatment. Chaos needs updated traits and something equivalent to doctrines.

That is the Primaris treatment, dude.

Do you think GW would have released those supplements to support a new kit of Tacticals?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
We're not talking about Primaris equivalent treatment. Chaos needs updated traits and something equivalent to doctrines.

That is the Primaris treatment, dude.

Do you think GW would have released those supplements to support a new kit of Tacticals?

Traits and Doctrines are not exclusive to primaris to be fair.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
We're not talking about Primaris equivalent treatment. Chaos needs updated traits and something equivalent to doctrines.

That is the Primaris treatment, dude.

Do you think GW would have released those supplements to support a new kit of Tacticals?

Yes. Maybe not the full supplements, but certainly the upgrades to Chapter Traits and the new Doctrine system that are in the new SM codex. But why not the full supplements? It fits with your original claim that they put out rules to promote model sales. GW updated marine rules because marines are their most popular army, but weren't selling as well as they could have because their rules were poor, especially for their infantry (which was a lot of their new kits.) Even if old marines are going to be entirely replaced by Primaris at some point, that's no reason for them not to make money selling the existing kits. Loosing out on sales due to crap rules is a terrible idea.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
We're not talking about Primaris equivalent treatment. Chaos needs updated traits and something equivalent to doctrines.

That is the Primaris treatment, dude.

Do you think GW would have released those supplements to support a new kit of Tacticals?

Well then I guess sob are primaris now.

Seriously if gw wants to sell models other than loyalist sm they need to give good rules to other factions. No one wants to build an army just to lose to sm.

Sob got their mono faction bonus so gw needs to hurry up and release the rules for other factions. Else people will start to get fed up and stop playing.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well then I guess sob are primaris now.

Don't they have new tanks, new HQs, new troops, as well as a new boxed set that is exclusively SoB?

I would expect a lot of new rules support for that. And didn't they also get a new codex?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well then I guess sob are primaris now.

Don't they have new tanks, new HQs, new troops, as well as a new boxed set that is exclusively SoB?

I would expect a lot of new rules support for that. And didn't they also get a new codex?

So factions should only get new rules when they get a complete update?

You like that system? I give up. I forgot you think this is a "rpg" not a war game.

I want everyone to have good rules and good models. I don't people to have to wait literal years to see if they get any kind of release. And I certainly wouldn't be so selfish as to want others not to have it once I did receive it.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
You like that system? I give up. I forgot you think this is a "rpg" not a war game.

I mean, should I?

You have a bunch of gamey CCG elements like stratagems and RP flavor like Warlord Traits and Relics. You can make tanks explode with rifles. You have magic spells. You can't target characters. "Tactics" at the moment are castling entire armies around re-roll auras based on their statline.

This is really how people here think?

Well, okay then. Carry on.

I think 40k works pretty well when you are realistic about the limits of its rulesets.

You can embrace the RP side and play fluffy and thematic armies in unique missions that you balance-player side. Or you can just go fully competitive and chase the meta with whatever FOTM happens to be dominant.

I wouldn't judge anyone for either way of playing, hell you can do both. You aren't restricted to either. But clearly they are very different ways to approach playing, and given GW's method of scheduling releases, they are more or less incompatible.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
[size=18]
So factions should only get new rules when they get a complete update?

You like that system? I give up. I forgot you think this is a "rpg" not a war game.

Well you've kind of answered your own question. Factions are getting new rules without a complete update. You just happen to not like those rules.

The newer Chaos Space Marine codex never really bothered me honestly. I always considered it more a, 'the stock of the old one was getting low so might as well include the updated stuff with the new print run' kind of deal.

I just never considered it a codex 2.0 like the latest Space Marine one. Won't lie and say that wouldn't have been a good time for GW put a little more effort and make it more like the latest Space Marine dex if they knew they were going that direction though. I still use my old one and any data sheets came with the models that aren't in my codex. Well, that and Battlescribe and sometimes the Bringers of Despair stratagem if I run Abbadon. To be fair, I still haven't made use of anything from Shadowspear on the CSM side except the marines themselves.

CSM "2.0".. I've never considered this a "new" codex.. it's a reprint that consolidated Vigilus. I'm guessing this was possibly GW testing the waters to see how the community would react to this sort of model republishing books with new content that trickles from campaign books and white dwarf etc.