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Made in us
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

This is a weird little hybrid: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/10/forge-world-pre-order-rock-it-with-rockets/

Maybe the Squats were all the Space Marines we made along the way.  
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




Are they using Horus heresy to experiment with rules for 40k? And I swear I was talking about something like that XD

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




i had the same thought.

Why blast markers and scatter dices are they gone in the first time?

Time consuming and source of quarrel between players.
They were a good solution with a lot of fun in a smaller format .

i am nostalgic but in don't want them back . games are long enought with many miniatures to move and strategms to planify and anticipate.

look at flamethrowers.
The rule is totaly stupid and simple. xd6 auto hit weapon with short range.
but it works. why? because autohit and short range perfectly simulate a weapon using torrent of fire/acid.
ws? no use. To hit malus? pointless.
efficiency in overwatch, thus affecting units charging throught fhleshmelting wall of fire? maximum
it works wonder.

just for god's sake don't use it to shoot flyers off the sky. this is dumb and need to be adressed.


so, is there a solution to build a rule that fits the system while being simpler with a better simulation of explosions, shockwave, ordnance and all the blasting things?

goals:

_don't consume too muche time
_simulate the progressive efficiency versus larger units.
_ fit in the core rules

first let's make a difference between a tank hunting canon/ krak missile/ focused burst of energy of any kind and ordnance.

even if they are explosion weapons they uses direct fire and no arc of fire.
they are fine as they are.
xdy shots using ws to hit.

"bombardment a/b" minimum range --- maximum range

weapons with this rule do not make to hit roll. instead select an enemy unit in range (note the absence of "visible") for each model in the enemy unit roll a dice, instead roll five dices for each model with vehicle or monster keyword and 10 dices for a model with titanic keyword . substract 1 to the result of each dice if you moved in your preceding movment phase and 1 if your target have the hard to hit rule.
For each result of a you score a hit to a maximum of b total hits.
proceed as normal.
be aware that bombardment weapons usualy have a minimum range of fire.

exemple.
weapon range type S AP D
mortar 6"-48" bombardment 5/6 4 0 1
ap shell 12-72 bombardment 5/3 8 -3 d6
demolition 6" bombardment 5/3 8 -3 d3 this weapon do not suffer malus for firing after a movment.
charge
medusa shell 12"-48" bombardment 4/10 6 -2 2 this weapon ignores covers


damage goes up with unit's size.
immune to lign of sight and to hit maluses but can't be used to hunt flying jetfighters .

two birds one stone

tired of alpha legion cultists, plaguebearers , magic boxes and so on? simply point a direction, throw high volume of higly explosive things in the air and praise the emperor of mankind or wathever you think is needed for them to land where you want to.





   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some good thoughts there, agony.

Part of answering the question, "how should blast weapons work," is answering the questions, "what makes blast weapons unique," and, "why should they work differently from other weapons.

One take is that blast weapons should exist as a long-ranged auto-hit weapon that disregards to-hit modifiers because you just have to land the shell vaguely in the general area of the thing you're trying to hit. In that case, many of the variations on, "Generate automatic hits based on the number of models in the unit," probably represents that. However, I personally dislike this role for blast weapons because....

A.) It automatically cancels some of the major defensive tools of many armies without requiring any major tradeoff on the part of the attacker. It's one thing if you cancel out Veil of Tears'd Harlequins using Lightning Fast Reactions by getting a flamer right in their faces. It's another thing to let a guard gunline's mortars and bassilisks ignore those to-hit penalties from a safe distance.

B.) It doesn't really fit the mechanics of past editions where missing with a blast was generally very possible unless you were targeting a very large and spread out squad. I'm not in favor of sticking to old rules for the sake of it, but making blasts auto-hit gives blast weapons a power up that they haven't had in any past edition (that I'm aware of). This would be a major change to the power of the weapons that would call for a major change to the cost of the weapons and would change the roles of many weapons. Suddenly mortars become relatively good at sniping planes, for instance.

I like the idea of blast weapons serving the niche of, "weapons that are better against hordes than against elites." It's a niche that kind of doesn't exist with 40k weapons presently as anything that is good at killing a horde is generally also better at killing elites.

By simply giving blast/template weapons X shots per Y models in the enemy unit (Y can be a large number like 10 to simplify counting), you...
A. fill the "better against hordes" role.

B. you don't require that every clunky arcing explodey shell in the 41st millenium suddenly be good at hitting fast moving stealthy stuff.

C. You give blasts a unique feel without requiring they work dramatically differently form other weapons in the game. You could get rid of the random number of shots, for instance, and simply roll to hit, wound, etc. as normal.But those frag missiles getting extra shots against the termagaunt blob will still feel unique.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I prefer a combination of factors.

Ie, blast weapons are likely to hit the target with something, even if not completely accurate. also, they are generally only a single shot that causes it.

Therefore something like this:

Roll one die to hit as normal. A hit scores X number of hits (see the weapon) up to the number of models in the target.

if a miss is rolled, check the die to see how much you 'missed' by to determine if you hit with anything:

If you missed by 1 (needed a 4 and rolled a 3), you hit with half the hits. If you missed by 2 you score a quarter of the hits. By 3 or more is a total miss. 1s always count as a total miss regardless of what was required.

ie frag missle is Blast (4). If you need a 5+ to hit, you score 4 hits on 5 or 6, you score 2 hits on a 4, 1 hit on a 3 and nothing on a 1-2.

This keeps the 'scatter' effect 'inside' the hit die roll.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 06:34:51


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I have been jotting up some house rules to go with a pet project of mine, the TX78 Hammerhead (new updated Hammerhead, fresh out of Research and Development).

One of the main changes is the 'rail cannon', which is supposed to represent the next generation of turret mounted linear accelerators. The 'Submunition' shot has been replaced with 'Smart Shot', which to represent a large blast now gets 2D6 shots, as opposed to D6, the second change is the shot now detonates 'above' enemies, rendering cover useless, therefore ignoring the benefits of cover and causing some sort of hit to Morale.

I think removing blast templates was a mistake, but the best method of mitigating it is to increase the shots from D6 to 2D6.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gary_1986 wrote:

think removing blast templates was a mistake, but the best method of mitigating it is to increase the shots from D6 to 2D6.


Sincere question: what makes you say that? Why do you feel it was a mistake to remove blast templates given the various failings that have been attributed to them in this thread? Why is giving all weapons that used to be "blasts" 2d6 shots the best way of handling them? Why not cutting down on dice rolling by making it 7 shots (the average of 2d6) or using one of the other options presented in this thread?
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




It was the ideal method of representing a blast weapon. The template showed, in a visual sense, there, that is where the blast is. The issue came from people quarrelling about things, but that shouldn't be an issue. When we had games (me and friends) the rule was, if I can hit it, then a blast template can go there, no complaints. Also, blast templates forced gamers to NOT clump up their troops, as because it was a finite sized template it was beneficial to spread out or suffer the consequences. Now, it's D6 regardless of spacing, which just seems a bit random. You could arrange a six man squad, maximum spacing, in a line and hit all six of them with a weapon that would have, in the past been a small blast and hit perhaps two of them.
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

The best solution would be to bring back templates.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Some interesting points and suggestions have been brought up.

I wouldn’t bring back templates and blast markers or scatter for the reasons already mentioned.
I still keep coming back to my initial suggestion though, but I know it’s not perfect, this is what I’m thinking now:

For template weapons I’d have a max number of hits eg template (5) where it hits that many times, but capped by the target unit size, so against a single model unit it’s 1 hit, against a 3 model unit it’s 3 hits and against a 5 or more model unit it hits 5 times. I’d still keep it as auto hit, but if the target has the Flyer battlefield role then it loses the auto hit and rolls BS as normal.

For blast weapons, I was considering making it auto hit the same as template weapons to better represent the ability to still cause damage when less accurate, but I think somebody made the point earlier that it might be too powerful at long range and I’m inclined to agree. So I was thinking blast (5) would work the same as templates when compared to the size of the target unit, but instead of number of hits it would be number of shots. BS would be rolled for each shot. The downside here is that the blast weapons is functionally the same as a high ROF weapon like an assault cannon. To fix this, I’d give a blast weapon a single to hit roll, if the BS roll is passed it scores the number of hits in brackets (up to number of models in the target unit) but if the hit roll is failed, the number in brackets is replaced by the unmodified to hit roll, and a 1 always misses.

So if a blast weapon with blast (5) targeting a 10 model unit scores a hit, you would make 5 wound rolls, if you are BS 5+ and you rolled a 4, you make 4 wound rolls etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 12:32:59


 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




i am not a fan of blast and indirect firing weapons being affected by reroll bublles or to hit modifier (either positive or negative).
I see there a good option for balance.

Most of the options that have been proposed have good systems to ramp up damage with unit's size.
Being imune to hit and reroll (except specific rules for them) could be a feature.

with cautions of course. i don't like shooting planes with artillery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 14:13:54


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Agony, I agree for the most part. Though, I still think the best solution is bring back templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
agony.deluxe wrote:
i am not a fan of blast and indirect firing weapons being affected by reroll bublles or to hit modifier (either positive or negative).
I see there a good option for balance.

Most of the options that have been proposed have good systems to ramp up damage with unit's size.
Being imune to hit and reroll (except specific rules for them) could be a feature.

with cautions of course. i don't like shooting planes with artillery.


I would stipulate such weapon as indirect artillery should be ruled in a sense that prevents them from targeting aircraft, surface to surface fire only.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/15 17:37:25


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

For indirect weapons, since (to my knowledge) every one is a random number of shots, I've proposed that they roll two dice and take the LOWER ONE when firing without LoS. (For Basilisks, since they natively roll 2 and take the higher, they'd just roll 1 and take that for number of shots when not in LoS.)

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 JNAProductions wrote:
For indirect weapons, since (to my knowledge) every one is a random number of shots, I've proposed that they roll two dice and take the LOWER ONE when firing without LoS. (For Basilisks, since they natively roll 2 and take the higher, they'd just roll 1 and take that for number of shots when not in LoS.)


Not roll three and take the middle one? (Joke)

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
 
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