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Made in gb
Enigmatic Sorcerer of Chaos





One thing about the old templates is that more bunched up units were punished more, and in theory (didn't always work out) larger units would have to bunch up more. Now you just cause D6 shots or whatever and ends up lacklustre.

How about Blast changes to add +D6 shots the larger the unit is? Maybe +D6 every 5 models in the unit.

So you have maybe 'Frag Missile' S4, Heavy 1 Blast

You have a base 1 shot. However, the Blast adds +D6 shots every 5 models in the unit, as they are more bunched up or were moving through tight spaces making them vulnerable or unwieldy. So shooting a unit of size 10, it now does (for example) 1+2D6 shots.

Large blast could be similar but maybe adding 2D6 instead.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I see where you're coming from, and I miss the ability to score a lot of hits on a very large closely bunched unit. I don't like adding more randomisation though, and rolling more dice slows down the game.

I've always liked the idea that blast and template weapons had a fixed maximum number of hits eg. template(5) or blast (10) etc where the number of hits was equal to the number of models in the target unit, capped by the number in brackets. so a blast(10) weapon targeting a unit of 5 models scores 5 hits and the same weapon targeting a unit of 20 models would score 10 hits.
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





One problem I would have with this:
According to this logic a 5 man guardsmen group huddled together in a ~3.5 cm radius circle in basecontact would get 1D6 hits from the blast, a 10 man squad stretched out in a thin line barely in unit coherency (so 2 inch in between any two models) would get 2D6, even if they span more than 40 cm.

I know basing the damage on number of models is easier, but it seems to me it's a poor approximation for blast weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 18:33:06


~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




To be fair, there's a load of rules in eighth edition that are rather naff. I can understand the reasons for doing it but I feel it was the wrong direction IMO. This whole 'rule streamlining' thing kinda takes from some of the charm of the game, half the fun used to be understanding of the rules. Sometimes it would have a negative effect on the opposing gamer but they was the price of not knowing the rules in and out.
   
Made in gb
Enigmatic Sorcerer of Chaos





Pyroalchi wrote:
One problem I would have with this:
According to this logic a 5 man guardsmen group huddled together in a ~3.5 cm radius circle in basecontact would get 1D6 hits from the blast, a 10 man squad stretched out in a thin line barely in unit coherency (so 2 inch in between any two models) would get 2D6, even if they span more than 40 cm.

I know basing the damage on number of models is easier, but it seems to me it's a poor approximation for blast weapons.

Blast weapons themselves against static bunched up models makes no sense as they don't literally take turns in 'real life' (if they were actually fighting).

What this represents is the ease of which smaller units can move around. A small unit on tabletop can be bunched up at one moment, but during the 'time' the turn takes, they could be gone from the location and more easily taken cover within their location or have moved away. A larger, more crowded unit is more unwieldy so abstracted, they would be hit more even if the circle radius on tabletop if they are spread out; rather than be a literal representation, it represents blasts on abstracted unit density rather than literal model position.

 
   
Made in de
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





@ ease to move around: I don't know. I mean 10 guys spread out in a line seem quite mobile to me, while 5 guys trying to huddle up in a crater for cover do not. But as rules go they are abstract anyway.

Still it would be awkward that a flamer hitting one end of a long line of infantry might end up wiping models 20'' away.

~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in it
Wild Wyrdboy with Minderz




Italy

I think it should simply have been:

Large Blasts: 2D6 shots.
Small Blasts: D6 shots.
Templates: D6+3 autohits.

Basically just 2x the current shots former templates and blasts got with the new edition. Sometimes even 3x considering that ork burnas are crappy D3 autohits.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 5000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Blackie wrote:I think it should simply have been:

Large Blasts: 2D6 shots.
Small Blasts: D6 shots.
Templates: D6+3 autohits.

Basically just 2x the current shots former templates and blasts got with the new edition. Sometimes even 3x considering that ork burnas are crappy D3 autohits.


An average of 6.5 strength 10 AP -4 hits per d-scythe wraithguard, you say!? Well, if you really want my 5 man squad to hit you 32.5 times each time they fire...

Daba wrote:One thing about the old templates is that more bunched up units were punished more, and in theory (didn't always work out) larger units would have to bunch up more. Now you just cause D6 shots or whatever and ends up lacklustre.

How about Blast changes to add +D6 shots the larger the unit is? Maybe +D6 every 5 models in the unit.

So you have maybe 'Frag Missile' S4, Heavy 1 Blast

You have a base 1 shot. However, the Blast adds +D6 shots every 5 models in the unit, as they are more bunched up or were moving through tight spaces making them vulnerable or unwieldy. So shooting a unit of size 10, it now does (for example) 1+2D6 shots.

Large blast could be similar but maybe adding 2D6 instead.


I do very much support the idea of increasing the number of shots fired by blast/template weapons based on the number of models in the target unit. however, a few things:

* There's not really a need to make the number of shots random . You can speed up the resolution of such weapons significantly by simply making such weapons X shots per Y models. So a flamer might do 3 shots per 5 models (rounding up) in the target unit.

* There's no need to standardize the exact amount across all weapons. As pointed out above, 5 d-scythes pack much more of a punch than 5 flamers. It would be easy enough to add a "Blast(X/Y)" rule that quickly indicates how many shots a weapon gets per how many enemy models. That way, a particularly powerful blast could scale up with the target unit size more slowly if you wanted it to be less efficient against infantry than a competitor. A whirlwind might be Blast(3/5) compared to a vindicators (3/10) or (1/5), as an example. Both would get more shots when firing at larger units, but the lower strenght shots of the whirlwind would scale up faster than the vindicator's high strength shots.

* Blasts NOT punishing units for buching up anymore is a feature, not a bug. Old blasts basically just punished people for not wasting extra hours of their lives agonizing over centimeters of spacing. Or for playing melee hordes that were forced to clump up anyway in order to get all their attacks in close combat. While it might be "realistic" to blast a chunk in a clump of orkz, it's not generally very satisfying for the ork player. Plus, it would be yet another thing that favors shooting over melee, so there's that. Scaling blast shots based on target unit size is fine, but let's not drag in mechanics that punish units for spacing.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Causing X hits per Y models is a bit less smooth (to my mind) than causing 1 hit per model, up to a maximum of X.

It is a lot easier, and quicker, to glance at a horde of orks and determine that yes, there are more than 5 models in the unit, than it is for you co count the models to determine if there are 24 or 25 models left. Particularly if there are 2 mobs right next to each other to muddy the water.

My beef with blast weapons is their effectiveness against single models. I have advocated in the past for Ordnance weapons, which would fire 2 profiles at the same target, one for the direct hit and another for the explosion. Direct hit would be the sort of 1 shot S10 AP-4 Dam D6 profile, explosion would be2D6 shots S6 AP-2 Dam 1. This would allow battlecannons to be decent at clearing chaff without being OP for killing tanks, but also with a chance of a direct hit doing lots of damage. It would make killing infantry with big guns feel like collateral damage more than their primary purpose. Plus the dramatic idea of a direct hit on a primaris marine blowing it to pieces whilst his friends are splattered by the blast...

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Easy fix: just give blast/flamer style weapons +1 shot/hit per 5 models in the target unit.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pointed Stick wrote:
Easy fix: just give blast/flamer style weapons +1 shot/hit per 5 models in the target unit.


That's basically my pitch, but with the option to give them +X shots per Y models so that you can control the rate at which such weapons scale a bit better. So a flamer might get 3 shots per 5 models while a frag missile only gets 2, but the flamer is a lot harder to get into range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
Causing X hits per Y models is a bit less smooth (to my mind) than causing 1 hit per model, up to a maximum of X.

It is a lot easier, and quicker, to glance at a horde of orks and determine that yes, there are more than 5 models in the unit, than it is for you co count the models to determine if there are 24 or 25 models left. Particularly if there are 2 mobs right next to each other to muddy the water.



I see where you're coming from. A few things:

* I really think it should be the number of shots that goes up rather than the number of hits. Historically, blast weapons have always had the potential to scatter wide. Requiring players to actually make to-hit rolls would retain that.

* Counting 24 vs 25 boyz is a fair point. I'm just not all that fond of a given blast always being at "maximum performance" against even a modestly-sized squad. So if a frag missile has a max of, say, 5 shots/hits, then you'll always be at your max damage output against even small, elite squads. Granting extra shots based on the target's squad size gives us weapons that are consistently more effective against hordes than elites (something the currently rules struggle to offer) and represents the old school increase in likelihood of hitting some/more models when shooting at a large squad.


My beef with blast weapons is their effectiveness against single models. I have advocated in the past for Ordnance weapons, which would fire 2 profiles at the same target, one for the direct hit and another for the explosion. Direct hit would be the sort of 1 shot S10 AP-4 Dam D6 profile, explosion would be2D6 shots S6 AP-2 Dam 1. This would allow battlecannons to be decent at clearing chaff without being OP for killing tanks, but also with a chance of a direct hit doing lots of damage. It would make killing infantry with big guns feel like collateral damage more than their primary purpose. Plus the dramatic idea of a direct hit on a primaris marine blowing it to pieces whilst his friends are splattered by the blast...


I don't hate that, but I feel that my proposal kind of covers a lot of the same ground. Under my proposal, you could give a gun a high strength and damage characteristic but only give it 1 shot per 5 models (or whatever) meaning that its anti-horde offense scales up much more slowly than something like a frag missile that does 3 shots per 5 models (or whatever). Your approach sounds good, but mine involves fewer steps to resolve.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/07 03:51:40


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




If you want blast-type weapons to be worse against small and single-model units, that's easy: just say that the number of shots/hits can never exceed the number of models in the unit. So the final rule would look like this:

"This weapon gains an additional shot/hit for every 5 models in the target unit, but the total number of shots/hits can never exceed the number of models in the unit."

If flamer and blast-style weapons had this rule, I think they'd be in a pretty good place.
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







I like the Relic Contemptor conversion beamer's approach, personally. One high-powered shot with a special rule saying "If this shot causes a model to be removed as a casualty the target unit takes (extra hits at a reduced profile)." Allow the weapon to keep a profile that'll do some damage to hard targets but not turn it into a high-rate-of-fire anti-tank gun.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






A different thought:

Blasts are explosions, which are not only deadly, but disruptive.

How about Blast weapons get the "Blast" Rule, which states if you suffer any causalities, your movement is halved next turn and you only hit on 6+ for shooting or CC for that turn?

This way you're getting a benefit, but you're not adding more dice rolls to the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 17:14:45


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




You should roll once and hit X many times, as opposed to the randomised machine guns they are currently.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:
A different thought:

Blasts are explosions, which are not only deadly, but disruptive.

How about Blast weapons get the "Blast" Rule, which states if you suffer any causalities, your movement is halved next turn and you only hit on 6+ for shooting or CC for that turn?

This way you're getting a benefit, but you're not adding more dice rolls to the game.


That would make blast weapons extremely powerful. You'd be able to pretty reliably make non-vehicle units hit on 6's and make it impossible for non-vehicles to cross the table on foot. There is a toned down version of this in the form of thunderfire cannons. You could probably give more weapons a similar rule via stratagem, but I don't think I want to see that sort of rule on the humble frag missile. That would be like giving your whole army 7th edition Invisibility against all your opponent's infantry.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote:
You should roll once and hit X many times, as opposed to the randomised machine guns they are currently.



Well, that would make your offense more "spiky." Which could be a flavorful thing, but that's about the only benefit I see to it. The nice thing about granting more shots based on the size of the unit you're shooting at is that it creates weapons that are better against hordes than they are against non-hordes. What you're proposing would basically average out the same as an X shot weapon (although single die rerolls would benefit it more).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I like the Relic Contemptor conversion beamer's approach, personally. One high-powered shot with a special rule saying "If this shot causes a model to be removed as a casualty the target unit takes (extra hits at a reduced profile)." Allow the weapon to keep a profile that'll do some damage to hard targets but not turn it into a high-rate-of-fire anti-tank gun.


I don't hate it, but I'm not sure I want to have to resolve two sets of attacks every time I shoot blast weapons. Plus, it feels a little strange that I'm only able to do extra damage if my normal damage kills something first. An X shots per Y models weapon might average 4 wounds. Your weapon might average 1 wound and then 3 more if the first wound kills something. Meaning that a lucky save on the first wound suddenly makes the extra damage not happen. Seems like explosions should be explodey regardless of whether or not the guy closest to the blast makes his first save.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 02:59:48


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Wyldhunt wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I like the Relic Contemptor conversion beamer's approach, personally. One high-powered shot with a special rule saying "If this shot causes a model to be removed as a casualty the target unit takes (extra hits at a reduced profile)." Allow the weapon to keep a profile that'll do some damage to hard targets but not turn it into a high-rate-of-fire anti-tank gun.


I don't hate it, but I'm not sure I want to have to resolve two sets of attacks every time I shoot blast weapons. Plus, it feels a little strange that I'm only able to do extra damage if my normal damage kills something first. An X shots per Y models weapon might average 4 wounds. Your weapon might average 1 wound and then 3 more if the first wound kills something. Meaning that a lucky save on the first wound suddenly makes the extra damage not happen. Seems like explosions should be explodey regardless of whether or not the guy closest to the blast makes his first save.


The point is to take some inspiration from Warmachine or WHFB's blasts that do an initial hit at one strength and blast damage at half strength. You can make the one initial hit really powerful (=massively more likely to kill something) because doing that doesn't translate into making a bunch of really powerful hits the way it would if you have uniform blast damage.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm 100% behind a single, powerful shot and then several, less powerful shots, representing the shell and the blast.

doing X hits per Y models is a way to do it, but still features a lot of counting. If you were a horde army faced with multiple, separate missile launchers, you would be forever counting models to work out how many hits you do.

I see the issue with X hits, up to the unit size, as you quite rightly say that exactly 5 models should be less likely to take 5 hits than 30 models. Perhaps 1 hit per 2 models, up to X, so for most things this would be 5, so you just have to count if there are 10 or more models to get the full 5 shots. a unit of 5 would take 3 shots. Combining the 2 would be a slightly more complex rule to learn, but give the right flexibility in the rules.

My final proposal, for the most accurate reflection of blast weapons in the game, would be:

"Blast X" weapons fire 1 shot for every 2 models in the target unit, rounding up, up to a maximum of X. For example, a "Blast 4" weapon will fire 1 shot for every 2 models in the target unit, up to a maximum of 4 shots.
Example:
Missile Launcher (Frag): S4 AP0 Heavy Blast 8

gets 3 shots on a 5 man squad, 8 shots on a 16+ man squad.

Ordnance weapons have 2 profiles, and must fire the "Shell" profile first. The Shell profile is a strong, single shot, which is typically good at killing tanks. The Blast profile which follows is weaker and lower damage, but with potentially more shots. The blast profile gains +1 to hit if the Shell profile successfully hits.
Battlecannon:
Shell: S8 AP-4 Dam 2D3 Heavy 1,
Blast: S5 AP-1 Dam 1 Heavy Blast 6

If it shoots a tank it gets 1 shell shot and 1 blast shot.
If it shoots a unit of 5 it gets 1 shell shot and 3 blast shots.
If it shoots a unit of 30 it gets 1 shell shot and 6 blast shots.


Maintaining their role as multipurpose but removing their ultimate-tank-killing profile.

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
 
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