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I can see why Mantic is doing it.

Not that I am really happy with it in general, but I am also not really mad about it.

I am more concerned of not seeing an Errata or re-release of the Historical book for 3rd than some changes of units in ex-Warhammer armies.


A thing is, that Mantic made bad experience with GW-costumers who requested rules from Mantic, but never came back to actually use them because GW's shiny new hat got their attention

So going back, doing their own thing and stop trying to get the Ex-Warhammer players who still want the game to be more like Warhammer and less like KoW is understandable.

But it could have been done better as this way those people who really made the change and supported KoW have to suffer.


But it is still not as bad as GW games as while the attitude may have changed, the rules are still good and the balance is still there

You can also see the number of books increased with time (Core Book, Uncharted Empire and, well, there is a third which is the annual Clash of Kings)

CoK also comes from a certain kind of players, as there are those around that say a game that does not change on a yearly base is dead and not worth playing, requesting either new armies each year or new units for each army to keep the game alive

from all options that some players requested, the CoK, as an optional book for organised play, was the lesser evil

What a weird thread this is ... I think what keeps me from throwing up my hands at the constant comparisons of Mantic to GW, whether they're better or worse or the same, is that I think most of you actually play KOW? So are fairly invested and/or not simply GW fan boys or Mantic haters. (Also I secretly get a kick out of the typo that's still in the thread title )

In other news, heard tell that the Ophidian faction is coming in some future supplement, and is a master list and not simply Undead + Kingdoms of Men

Yeah I'm heavily invested in Mantic. I own practically everything they've made starting with Deadzone 1 and onward. I wouldn't be spending so much energy complaining about something I didn't care about.

Well yes, I'm still invested, even if I'm frustrated on more than one level with them and not liking all their choices. Another thing annoying me and totally not Mantic Games's fault is the translation in french of the rules being late because of the french distributor apparently not thinking it would be an important thing to do for the french gaming community. At least the intention is to have a french translation, but we don't know when - will certainly come out in late 2020, if we're lucky.

But I also can see why they took this road with this supplement. It's just also understandable players from 2nd edition and used to play these lists are not happy to see some of their units disappearing for no good reason for them. So I believe brushing it off and saying it doesn't matter shouldn't be the right answer to give to them - it's not justified for them and the time they put in making those units in their armies.

I can totally see Mantic Games making new theme lists in future supplements...which will increase the number of books for playing, of course.


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 Boss Salvage wrote:

In other news, heard tell that the Ophidian faction is coming in some future supplement, and is a master list and not simply Undead + Kingdoms of Men

You mean an army book ?

Joke aside, I can totally see the Ophidian having their own list, maybe with a few boxes/miniatures on the arabian theme. I liked the previous campaigns for King of War, I would love them to make another campaign book and take the opportunity to put a list in there, with background an all !

I play GW. The crap I put up with cannot be compared to even the worst of Mantic.

I play their games because I like their rules and that they are aimed for fast gameplay

better balance between faction is a thing too
makes it easier to play at home with the kids (without going into arguments why one is always winning because he chosed the models/units he liked instead of those who are good)

The only "downside" for me is that there is no Uncharted Empires book for Warpath FireFight.
While getting all new stuff to play Deadzone is not a problem, using my old 40k stuff to play larger games with those rules is not the working well (I am on the edge of selling it except for some conversion bits but with 40k being the dominant game it may be better to keep it if the kids want to play at 40k events in future)

@Ophidia
as far as I know, this is more of a private project from one of the guys at Mantic and therefore takes its time to develop

there is also a more halfling focused list coming in future and maybe more (30 factions in 3rd were mentioned at some point)

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I play GW. The crap I put up with cannot be compared to even the worst of Mantic.

That's because you don't know the crap from Mantic Games.

 kodos wrote:

The only "downside" for me is that there is no Uncharted Empires book for Warpath FireFight.
While getting all new stuff to play Deadzone is not a problem, using my old 40k stuff to play larger games with those rules is not the working well (I am on the edge of selling it except for some conversion bits but with 40k being the dominant game it may be better to keep it if the kids want to play at 40k events in future)

I dunno, to me Mantic's Warpath range is pretty much developped not to be a 40k clone. It's much more difficult to "invite" those armies because I believe they are much more prone to copyright strikes. It's not like WFB generic fantasy, here, I feel.

I mean, yes, the comparison is still very obvious, but I believe there is a reason they focused more on armies like Forgefathers, The Plague, The Resistance or even the Veer-Myns. Those are quite distinctive from current 40k factions, even if there is an obvious inspiration here and there.

In the end, I think that's what Mantic Games wants to do with their KoW universe and miniatures, and 3rd edition with Unchartered Empires are going in that direction.

@Ophidia
as far as I know, this is more of a private project from one of the guys at Mantic and therefore takes its time to develop

there is also a more halfling focused list coming in future and maybe more (30 factions in 3rd were mentioned at some point)

Well, they said they would put the profiles for League of Infamy miniatures to play in KoW in a future Clash of Kings, so it would make sense if a halfling theme list appears at that time.

It's logical to make rules when the miniatures are ready to be sold, maybe with a Mega Army bundle like they did for Basilea.

 Sarouan wrote:
I dunno, to me Mantic's Warpath range is pretty much developped not to be a 40k clone. It's much more difficult to "invite" those armies because I believe they are much more prone to copyright strikes. It's not like WFB generic fantasy, here, I feel.

I mean, yes, the comparison is still very obvious, but I believe there is a reason they focused more on armies like Forgefathers, The Plague, The Resistance or even the Veer-Myns. Those are quite distinctive from current 40k factions, even if there is an obvious inspiration here and there..

Deadzone and Warpath, yes.
but FireFight was explicit made to be more like 40k as during Alpha test and the KS GW/40k players requested such a system so that a transition is easier.
and Mantic did not wanted to change Warpath into something that does not suit them.

Problem was that people did not understood that 40k has already grown too big and Warpath was the system for armies in 40k size, while FireFight was smaller.
the other problem was the missing of the copy&paste GW lists, while the existing ones suited 90% of the GW range people wanted more obvious lists

and with the hype/marketing of 8th the players who wanted those rules were gone anyway

so it is what it is, FireFight without the 40k lists is like a game that suites no one (specially as those who are in Deadzone/Warpath work in a Deadzone XL as game in between that scales better and is more in line with those 2)

That's because you don't know the crap from Mantic Games

or you not the crap GW came up latley

I'm fine with Firefight not supporting 40k models. Crossovers in generic fantasy are one thing, but 40k has very distinctive designs that don't fit with Mantic's. It'd be easier to shoehorn in Infinity factions, for example, both settings being corporate dystopias.

I'm all for releasing new factions that further flesh out Kings of War so Ophidians are most welcome, the concept looks very cool. A supplement like Edge of the Abyss with a desert theme for an Ophidian list and other stuff like desert elves would be interesting!
But I hope they don't loose sight, as overextending and adding piles of new stuff can bring the dreaded bloat and lack of balance that plague other games. CoK already started the trend of adding more spells, formations, etc that wasn't great (imho), and then 3rd edition added more stuff. Would be nice if that stopped at some point before it is too late (still far far from being bad though, it is nice now!), and find other alternatives to develop/update the game instead of adding more and more layers.

Seriously, someone tell me what bullcrap Mantic has actually pulled? Cutting a few options from army lists that were pretty big and had multiple redundancies can't be called 'GW-esque no-model-no-rules' when they left pages on pages of units without models still in. I did have the 2nd edition book and uncharted empires along with a number of games, and it definitely felt like some units were just there to be there.

They didn't pull anything particularly bad besides what was mentioned. So few units, adding extra rules layers, weird pricing, etc... This doesn't mean KoW is in a bad situation, nor that Mantic became GW or any nonsense that some seem to imply (the comparison between both is stupid, for a start).
But I don't see the problem with mentioning that the KoW approach in 3rd edition is different compared to early 2nd ed, and that some recent changes are not that great (more so if these trends continue, which would be the real issue).

 kodos wrote:

or you not the crap GW came up latley

Haha, fair enough. To be honest, I'm not happy with the crap from GW as well. I don't like it from anywhere.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Seriously, someone tell me what bullcrap Mantic has actually pulled?

Oh, I was talking about the other stuff outside of 3rd edition. For example, releasing Clash of Kings early 2019 while they knew full well they were working on 3rd edition, thus making it obsolete in a matter of months. Or the Vanguard move they intended when they released in retail and the backlash they had from their Kickstarter backers at that time. Or the various problems with their previous Kickstarters. Or how they treated the rule writer of Dungeon Saga. Or how they just left Dungeon Saga to rot.

You can read more about it in the main topic in Rumor section if you want to know.


But yes, I admit I should stop comparing to GW. Even Mantic Games has troubles not to do it (cf the last video they made when GW made the announcement about the Old World coming back). On the other hand, their past is intimately linked to GW, so it's hard to let it go.

Ok, I will admit their kickstarters have been a crapshow, you definitely got me there.

I guess I express disbelief at the comparison because GW sets such a 'high' bar. Warhammer Skirmish was obselete BEFORE it even came out, being completely broken on a basic level and inferior to the preexisting fan version (that people still use). I doubt Mantic can beat that!

My main issue with the book is that I have to flick through two books when building and playing. I really wish they hadn't of gone down the themed list path. It worked in their Historical game, as that was all in one book.

Also Brotherhood being split into two factions is an odd choice.

As a Herd player I have come to accept what they have done, but that maybe due to having 2 hordes of Guardian Brutes