Switch Theme:

Unchartered empires  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





So with Unchartered empires out and the drama underway, what's your thoughts?

The split in the Brotherhood just doesn't sit right with me, seems unnecessary to split them between two different theme lists. I would have much preferred if Brootherhood was a master list with it’s own theme lists. In regards to the League of Rhordia it seems a bit half-assed. Either pull Halflings completely out of the list or leave them as is. I would also have liked to see some bow-infantry option for the free dwarfs and some standard sword and board unit for the twilight kin, but that’s minor things.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I understand why they did what they ddid and I'm perfectly fine with it.

I'm a varanguar player, and I will figure out how to continue with what they gave me.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

dyndraig wrote:
I would have much preferred if Brootherhood was a master list with it’s own theme lists.
You know, I agree, but Mantic doesn't look like it wants to fully support a Brohood mini line, so it couldn't have been a master and needed to be attached to another list. Whiiiiich I would have just gone with Basi myself? Maybe there was a difference of opinion about which way to take the army - more Basi or more Nature - and they decided to split the difference and preserve the most elements of the old Brohood by going two different ways? More militant / heroic vs mythic / fantasy. And it seems nobody is happy.
In regards to the League of Rhordia it seems a bit half-assed. Either pull Halflings completely out of the list or leave them as is.
It's been made quite clear that more Halflings are returning when the KS'd Vanguard stuff drops / a campaign reintroducing them. All those cooks and what not.
I would also have liked to see some bow-infantry option for the free dwarfs and some standard sword and board unit for the twilight kin, but that’s minor things.
Yea, that would have been cool, but with rifles and crossbows, is there a place for a third shooting unit? 3E reduced redundancies in many places, that would seem to add it. On the topic of Free Dwarfs, I really like the list, basically takes the stuff I like from Dwarfs and adds more interesting unlockers and some of the coolest legends.

Overall, my take is that Uncharted has a lot of interesting lists, that IMO are more interesting than their 2E versions.

- Salamanders (which I play), got better lizard parts and finally some synergy in the fire parts (big win for my fire elemental army ) Waiting impatiently for Agnih-Bhanu's return!
- Sylvan Kin seem cool, more interesting version of Elves to me, though they also make Elves stand out more, as the draconic side of the race in particular
- The Herd list I really like, infantry got more interesting, Brutes got even smashier, Mino Chariots are very real, Moonfang > Father, and the Stampede was a crutch that was never going to survive the edition change. Herd players having to rejigger their lists or repurpose their minis sucks in particular because the 2E army wasn't a powerhouse, but its competitive options were very few and big parts of the list never appeared. The 3E list feels like there's more room for variety now
- Kingdoms of Men seems very similar to 2E, except with slightly fewer options (a good thing for a newcomer to Men like me!) and a great army upgrade. Very interested in making a KOM army eventually
- Rhordia I don't have many opinions on, except that it's good to see Honor Guard toned down (3E has weakened many of the easy button hammers in the game, which is a great thing), and that there should probably be more Halflings (and eventually will be)
- Ratkin (which I play) I'm happy to see move away from Skaven ... but as a Blight player in 2E I find myself missing pretty much all my options. Which is what it is, I guess I'm running Shock Troop core now like everybody, because Me 5+ on all the other options is a no. My Brutes are now Nightmares, my Blight Lords are ... Brood Moms? (Who are awesome!) I'm interested to see where people take their [Skaven] armies with this new list, but it seems like pretty much the same hordes + shooting concept, with some added sustain with the Brood Mom antics. Overall I'm fine with the list, and look forward to the first all Mantic Rat armies, some years down the line.
- Ratkin Slaves are pretty weird to me? You're playing it for Last Breath in my mind, or I guess because you're an AD player and see something in all these exploding chaff troops? I dunno, it's a weird one!
- Twilight Kin have a much more interesting list now with the removal of auto-take chariots. I'm very curious to see what Kin players take (spoiler: I think many will go back to Elves, where they came from), however I'm pretty sure the answer is Cronebound Abyssal Horsemen regiments backed up by Summoner Crones. CAH are stepping up as the Tier 1 cav of 3E, taking the place of Mounted Sons, and they actually get a buff from being taken as Kin, with even more sustain power. Personally tho I don't care for either the Abyssal or Stalker stuff, I wish there were more pure Kin options like Impalers and Dancers (I was going to do Kin before we saw this list, now I'm thinking more KOM)
- Varangur I've basically not looked at, but I'm hopeful they've fallen from the top tier spot they had, at the least because taking 2-3x Mounted Sons isn't auto-win any longer? I guess it's good to see Fallen back to their old tricks, and Draugr are neat. I fought - and often lost to - Varangur all the time in 3E so I'm fine if they're a little less extra this time (but NA are a great base, so what could go wrong?)

Lots of words to say that I like the book. Yep, it sucks that some units were remixed and a few removed for reasons, but frankly I find most of them are easy to find homes for. Happy to see better balanced lists with less obvious options and more Mantic flavor.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 15:01:26


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Damsel of the Lady





drinking tea in the snow

Good to see some notes! i'm still waiting on my copy.

Are berserkers in KOM still a thing?

realism is a lie
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

 amazingturtles wrote:
Are berserkers in KOM still a thing?
Yep, but called Fanatics now. Still regular with CS1, gained Wild Charge (D3) and the following tweaks:

T +2 Att, -1 Nv, -5 Pts
R -1 Nv, +5 Pts
H -1 Nv, +10 Pts

There's also a Fanatic Instigator hero, fearless punchy dude (6 Att @ 3+) with CS (1), Mighty, WC (D3) for 85 Pts. That's not bad!

Also, note that https://www.goodarmylists.com/ has been updated with the Uncharted lists

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 21:21:08


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Damsel of the Lady





drinking tea in the snow

Nice, thanks! I'm glad that it doesn't look like i'll have to do any massive changes to my army, just a little tweaking here and there.

I wasn't sure about the army list building at first, but it's still pretty intuitive and easy to understand

realism is a lie
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block






I like it, in general the lists feel more characterful, with less units shared across the board.

Ratkin (the only UE army I have) feel very coherent, even if it is not quite the direction I would have gone with them. I will miss brutes, and my screaming tuba is no longer a stand in for a Demonspawn (because it now comes with wings, and I don't think I can justify that) but nothing really bothers me.
Ratkin no longer feel like strange goblins
On that note, Brotherhood no longer feel like strange KoM
Salamanders no longer feel like strange Orcs
Herd no longer feel like strange FoN

They did a good job of finding a niche for all the weird and wonderful armies out there, which I'm not sure they managed to do in 2nd edition, and taking out superfluous units is a big part of that.
   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




Ireland

 Scythern wrote:

Ratkin (the only UE army I have) feel very coherent, even if it is not quite the direction I would have gone with them. I will miss brutes,


Nightmares appear to be Brutes + guns. I might try converting my skaven rat ogres.

Blight units are gone and I'm not sure what to do with the 20 plague monks I've yet to assemble. I could maybe use them as Scurriers or just another Warrior regiment.

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

 Esker wrote:
 Scythern wrote:
I will miss brutes
Nightmares appear to be Brutes + guns. I might try converting my skaven rat ogres.
I'mma miss my Brutes too I ran 2-3 regiments of them, and they did sooooo much work it's silly. I think my proudest match with them was vs another Ratkin army, where my 2x Brute regiments + a Swarm-crier + a friendly wood repulsed, trapped and killed a horde of Brutes + a Damonspawn

Nightmares are obviously what they are now, but they're a pale shadow. No brutal, no regen, no fury, no CS(2) really gutted them of their overabundance of tools. Def 5+ makes them tougher Boomers who are a little better at fighting and worse at shooting ... but my rats have plenty of shooting going on, so shrug.

I did realize that Abyssal Molochs are basically OG Brutes on 50mm bases tho

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Do not have a copy yet, but based on the above, I'm curious if a Salamander list composed mainly of Salamanders is a contender this edition. It wasn't in 2nd. My lizardmen would like to play without being a doormat. Boss Salvage is our resident expert, and he was using mostly fire elementals.

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead, Northern Alliance [WiP], Nightstalkers [WiP]
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Kill Team: Deathwatch AdMech Necron

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

I'm clearly not an expert on the lizard parts of the list, but they look pretty buffed across the board. Ancients kept their inspiring (but became irregular), Tyrants got hugely boosted (Krox in the house!), Slashers take the place of ABP (and look much better, if not Def 6), CLOFD got juiced up (15 attaks!), Clan Lords are very aggressively costed, and Rhinosaurs are still the super hammer they were before. The whispers are that Sallies may be the list to beat in 3E, which checks out as they were the list to never play in 2E / only had one build that still wasn't hyper competitive.

EDIT: Of the three Obviously Great units in the 2E list, Lekelidons were gently nerfed (Ra 4+ now), Skyraiders have changed roles from what they did before, thanks to the Jar being (justly) removed, and Skylords lost an attak but also went down 10 Pts. Seems pretty gentle all told.

EDIT2: Wow, you can take Ghekkotah legions now O_O

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/12 18:29:46


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







It seems Mantic doesn't want to be the only company that prioritizes the health of the game over model sales anymore. It's sad to see faction-defining units deleted just because Mantic doesn't have plans to make a model, and factions ripped up to open up design space for selling splatbooks.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It seems Mantic doesn't want to be the only company that prioritizes the health of the game over model sales anymore. It's sad to see faction-defining units deleted just because Mantic doesn't have plans to make a model, and factions ripped up to open up design space for selling splatbooks.

I don't think that's it (I may be wrong, I suppose). It looks like Mantic made the lists their own and actually applied some design to make the game better. As opposed to making the lists to accommodate models that people may have in their collections from other companies.

Not sure what you mean by "faction defining"? Surely what defines a factions follows from the design of the list.

Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







We know this is not the case because the rules committee got a list of units they had to make rules for. If they were committed to a quality ruleset, Mantic would let the people writing the rules decide which units make for a coherent force. Instead, they decided which models they want to sell and built the factions around that.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in cz
Scarab with a Cracked Shell



Prague, Czechia

 DarkBlack wrote:
It looks like Mantic made the lists their own and actually applied some design to make the game better. As opposed to making the lists to accommodate models that people may have in their collections from other companies.


We can have a look at the Herd list. When it was introduced in the 2ed it included Stampede and Great Totem. I consider both units as iconic in the list and both of them were Mantic own inventions/design, not accomodating anyone's collections (do note there was no Herdstone produced by GW at that time, it hit the market about 2-3 years later). Both units are gone in the 3ed while e.g. earth elementals were added to the army. I just fail to see how the earth elementals fit into the herd theme. Though, by chance Mantic produces the models for them.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Al Quds wrote:
We can have a look at the Herd list. When it was introduced in the 2ed it included Stampede and Great Totem. I consider both units as iconic in the list and both of them were Mantic own inventions/design, not accomodating anyone's collections (do note there was no Herdstone produced by GW at that time, it hit the market about 2-3 years later). Both units are gone in the 3ed while e.g. earth elementals were added to the army. I just fail to see how the earth elementals fit into the herd theme. Though, by chance Mantic produces the models for them.
Few points worth considering:
- I've written at length about the Stampede's becoming redundant in 3E, but basically, consider how 3E toned down several of the auto-include hammers in the game (honor guard, brock riders, mounted sons) and now look at the Stampede. Drop its Nv down to sane levels (see brocks), drop its TC down to take into account the TC gained from charging off a hill, and the unit you're left with is sitting between Minotaur Chariot regiments and Guardian Brute hordes. 3E has seen many redundant units removed or combined. I can't see why the Stampede should still exist after being nerfed, when it can be represented just fine by either of two units that Mantic is more interested in making models for, than a redundant one that is extremely generic and easily represented by plastic animal toys.
- The Herdstone was referenced in at least the Beasts of Chaos 6E armybook (2003) and had a playable unit in the 7E book (2010), on top of getting a detailed high grade plastic model recently (2018-2019?) While I do think it's a missed opportunity to keep a fourth terrain unit in the game, I have to think it's been removed to distance the Herd from GW's Beastmen line. That, and there isn't as much Rally in 3E, and the old War Totem steps on the toes of the Orc War Drum, one of the few things that Orcs get that others don't. 3E has been pushing the distinction between factions, giving Herd a not-Drum would only help the argument that they're 'brown orcs'.
- Earth Elementals were weird for me too, but I think it's because the RC looked at the Herd list, which is a mid-to-high speed ground pounding force with low defense, and decided of all the elementals, Earth would offer the slow high def anvil that would counter-balance it. Personally, I might have found a way to shove Air into the army, as that's not in another list (right?) and it gives units to rep great eagles or eagle riders or big flying beasties or whatnot, although it does sort of double down on what the list already does (see redundancies).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/16 15:51:31


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in cz
Scarab with a Cracked Shell



Prague, Czechia

@Boss Salvage: Well, we know that we have different views on the Stampede removal from the list as we have already argued about it on the KoW forum. I maintain that I see room in the Herd list for two distinctly different unist, the chariots (high movement TC(2) unit with let's say def 5 and medium number of attacs, possibly with some shooting) and alpha-striking unit Stampede similar to the Brock riders (def 4, medium movement, high number of attacks, high nerve). Both units could easily be in the list, I do not see a problem with it, no redundancy in the army. You raise a good point that Stampede was (due to a lack of other proper models) often represented by toy models that fit well. To put it the other way, the unit was represented by models that Mantic does not produce ...

On the Herdstone - I might be missing something but I do not see it in the Beastmen (2009) AB. At least I checked the unit profiles at the end of the book, I did not go through the fluff etc. I do not have access to the earlier book you mention, so the Herdstone idea could have been there. I agree the unit was most likely removed because GW started to produce the Herdstone but I still think the idea/design was Mantic's when the Herd was released in the KoW 2ed. Anyway, for me it was an iconic unit in the list, so it is hard to swallow its removal.

For me the message is clear - any unit can be completely removed in a future KoW edition if Mantic does not produce models for it. We may talk hours about it, discuss it from different perspectives but that's what I take from it. The removal of some units from the army lists (not only Herd) is just telling that Mantic is not that different from other companies, clearly wanting to sell their miniatures instead of providing the players more options unitwise. It does not mean that I will stop playing the game, I like many changes the 3ed brought. I even agree with you that the 3ed Herd list may perform better on the battlelfield when compared with how it did in the 2ed. The 3ed Herd is just missing a part of the appeal it had for me when I played it in the 2ed and I do not like its merger with the verdant and earth elemental themes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/16 17:24:31


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Al Quds wrote:
I maintain that I see room in the Herd list for two distinctly different unist, the chariots (high movement TC(2) unit with let's say def 5 and medium number of attacs, possibly with some shooting) and alpha-striking unit Stampede similar to the Brock riders (def 4, medium movement, high number of attacks, high nerve). Both units could easily be in the list, I do not see a problem with it, no redundancy in the army.
I mean, that would make sense, except small shooty chariots aren't in the list any longer. I'm not sure why they left, but frankly I'm only interested in analyzing what we've got to work with, not wishlisting. So ... sure?
On the Herdstone - I might be missing something but I do not see it in the Beastmen (2009) AB. At least I checked the unit profiles at the end of the book, I did not go through the fluff etc.
It was a magic item called Shard of the Herdstone that was extremely common and modeled as a massively oversized terrain piece (IMO almost always abusively, as it was used to provide cover in addition to its magic effects, when I really doubt that was the intent).
The removal of some units from the army lists (not only Herd) is just telling that Mantic is not that different from other companies, clearly wanting to sell their miniatures instead of providing the players more options unitwise.
Yes? Honestly I still don't see the issue here? I'd rather pay to play a dynamic, current, supported wargame than the legacy husk of a game or a generic open source system. Which are all valid in their own ways.

Is the issue here that Mantic promised they wouldn't do this or something? Was 1E specifically an open rules set game? I remember intense complaining about 1-2 base size changes in 2E, and I got the feeling the community assumed Mantic wouldn't ever change units??

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/16 17:41:42


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

Al Quds wrote: Anyway, for me it was an iconic unit in the list, so it is hard to swallow its removal.

That is awfully subjective for an argument and even if it is iconic it's iconic for a list that has been redesigned.

For me the message is clear - any unit can be completely removed in a future KoW edition if Mantic does not produce models for it. We may talk hours about it, discuss it from different perspectives but that's what I take from it. The removal of some units from the army lists (not only Herd) is just telling that Mantic is not that different from other companies, clearly wanting to sell their miniatures instead of providing the players more options unitwise. It does not mean that I will stop playing the game, I like many changes the 3ed brought. I even agree with you that the 3ed Herd list may perform better on the battlelfield when compared with how it did in the 2ed. The 3ed Herd is just missing a part of the appeal it had for me when I played it in the 2ed and I do not like its merger with the verdant and earth elemental themes.

If you insist on being negative, sure.
As explained by Boss Salvage, the changes are not without reason. Lists have been redesigned in an effort to improve the game. Uncharted Empires is now more designed and thought out with the aim of making extra distinct army lists. Which in my view is better than the lists aimed at accommodating old collections from another game.
I'll also add that this redesign isn't exclusive to Uncharted Empires, there was just more redesigning to do. Main rule book armies have also seen units being consolidated (screamer and mindscreetch) and options present in GW lines, but not Mantic removed (like ironguard with two-handed weapons, which made sheildbreakers redundant).
Obviously Mantic has kept the models that make (or plan to make) in the game, it would be monumentally stupid not to.

Mantic are not obliged to accommodate any models, the fact that they do at all sets them apart. They've just chosen to put game rules design ahead of that.

Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in es
Courageous Silver Helm





Besides all the debates on unit availability and all that, I think it is quite clear that with 3rd edition Mantic is trying to give the armies an identity rather than just being an "accessory game" to accommodate old collections.
I don't have the book, but a preview video said The Herd now a theme list for the Forces of Nature, hence inclusion of Elementals, etc. So The Herd is shifting from not-Beastmen to something else more in line with Pannithor rather than the Old World. We also see that with Varangur, who move away from being average not-chaoswarriors.
Sure we can complain that Mantic are removing/changing options, but it's about time they starting moving out from being a replacement game and evolve into it's own thing that doesn't simply ape an old game.
   
Made in au
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Melbourne

 DarkBlack wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
It seems Mantic doesn't want to be the only company that prioritizes the health of the game over model sales anymore. It's sad to see faction-defining units deleted just because Mantic doesn't have plans to make a model, and factions ripped up to open up design space for selling splatbooks.

I don't think that's it (I may be wrong, I suppose). It looks like Mantic made the lists their own and actually applied some design to make the game better. As opposed to making the lists to accommodate models that people may have in their collections from other companies.

Not sure what you mean by "faction defining"? Surely what defines a factions follows from the design of the list.


Sales dept runs the show at Mantic, the RC spend an unnecessary amount of time and effort stopping the Sales dept doing silly things.

You should know it's all abuot PR. GW haven't really changed their spots since Kirby, they just engaged with the community and started making nostalgia products customers had been clamouring for. Mantic started with good PR, but if you think they're any different you're fooling yourself.

Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch."
Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!" 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

 Baragash wrote:

Sales dept runs the show at Mantic, the RC spend an unnecessary amount of time and effort stopping the Sales dept doing silly things.

How do you know this? Source please.
You should know it's all abuot PR. GW haven't really changed their spots since Kirby, they just engaged with the community and started making nostalgia products customers had been clamouring for. Mantic started with good PR, but if you think they're any different you're fooling yourself.

Just from comparing their games it's obvious that they do something differently. Having been a customer to both, that something makes a huge difference in experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 14:57:45


Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







The RC confirmed that they got a list of units to make rules for. That invalidates any apologist claims that unit choices were driven by rules, it is the other way round.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The RC confirmed that they got a list of units to make rules for.
Bam! And that's the Herd earth elementals sorted. I'mma still make noise about them providing an ultimate anvil in a list that lacks one ... but anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 14:44:54


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in cz
Scarab with a Cracked Shell



Prague, Czechia

 Boss Salvage wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
The RC confirmed that they got a list of units to make rules for.
Bam! And that's the Herd earth elementals sorted. I'mma still make noise about them providing an ultimate anvil in a list that lacks one ... but anyway.


You are quite right about the anvil, but in a way each army should have some weaknesses and strenghts. I think Mantic opted for the earth element instead of the wind one (which would go with the also removed Great eagles) because the earth elementals are already produced by Mantic. Though, I guess the wind ones will appear as well at some point.

And thanks for claryfying the GW Herdstone matter. During my WHFB time I faced the Beastmen only twice or three times and none of my opponents included the item.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 15:19:07


 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

lord_blackfang wrote:The RC confirmed that they got a list of units to make rules for. That invalidates any apologist claims that unit choices were driven by rules, it is the other way round.

It's not a dichotomy. It's possible to have sales inform decisions that are made with rules as a priority.

Apologists is a very strong word, even stronger than "invalidates". Hate to break it to you but real life with adults involved is not us Vs them or a simple is or isn't any of the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/19 14:02:10


Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's funny to see how Mantic fanboyz shift their stance as there is now proof that Mantic Games isn't any better than GW in the end, and that their ruleset isn't made solely for balance point of view. I don't want to say I told you so, but well...I told you so.

Of course they have reasons to have done all of these changes. That doesn't mean it's the reasons their community wanted to have. The real trouble here is that for years, their message was about "we're different than GW, we care for the players and their armies !". Now it sounds false. A lot of old players are angry because while the changes may look small or irrelevant to others, they do matter for them because it feths their own armies they've built/painted with love. They were supportive of Mantic Games for all this time, often coming from GW when it was bad, and they thought they really have found a place where they can enjoy what they like. Now they see they were betrayed again.

The truth is, 3rd edition Uncharted Lists would still work with the older lists / units. Stampede units didn't have to leave, they could have been modified/balanced instead. It is solely, purely a question of sales of Mantic Games miniatures. The true danger here isn't about the rules or how good/bad the game is, it is about Mantic Games' reputation in the wargamer community. And I completely get Al Quds point of view here. Mantic fanboyz can dismiss it like it's irrelevant, but I believe it's a mistake. Saying it doesn't matter doesn't lessen its impact on the community.

Sure, Mantic Games didn't destroy Mantica here, but the division is still there. It's just on a different level - and I think it's actually a more insidious one, here. After all, Mantic Games has built their reputation for a very long time about being "friendlier" than GW. It becoming less and less true / apparent is a big trouble for a company of this size. They can't offer to upset their fanbase, especially now than Brexit is all but confirmed.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Mantic as bad as GW, you're surely joking...?

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Courageous Silver Helm





What made KoW attractive in the first place compared to that other game is still intact: bulk army updates and condensed in 1-2 books, rules support for units/armies that don't have official models, tight/clear gaming and flexible miniature representation.
All these are the antithesis of what GW would do. I could only hope AoS had the same approach.
Sure their prices went up (so did the quality) and maybe a few units that didn't even have official models no longer have rules but considering that this 3rd edition proves Mantic devolved into something like GW sounds a tad bit too alarmist.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Mantic as bad as GW, you're surely joking...?


I said they weren't better, that's not the same. And you're missing the point I tried to make here.


VBS wrote:
What made KoW attractive in the first place compared to that other game is still intact: bulk army updates and condensed in 1-2 books, rules support for units/armies that don't have official models, tight/clear gaming and flexible miniature representation.
All these are the antithesis of what GW would do. I could only hope AoS had the same approach.


I don't know, to me what makes KoW attractive is the fact the game system uses units as a whole as base and not individual miniatures put together and keeping the rules neat and simple (while not going the full "let's give a unique special rule to everything to make it feel special" road). You can also see the number of books increased with time (Core Book, Uncharted Empire and, well, there is a third which is the annual Clash of Kings). About support for units/armies that don't have Mantic Games miniatures, you can clearly see the move with 3rd edition isn't like 2nd. They're not trying to lure WFB old players into KoW anymore, they know they have to make their own trademarked range.

As years passed, Mantic Games has made small moves that aren't that friendly for the players (remember the Vanguard move when they only wanted to give the profiles in the Vanguard boxes on the cards, and not elsewhere ? Sure, they move backwards because of the community backlash, but let's not forget that this was their first intention here).


Sure their prices went up (so did the quality) and maybe a few units that didn't even have official models no longer have rules but
considering that this 3rd edition proves Mantic devolved into something like GW sounds a tad bit too alarmist.


Well, you can see they are less friendly about using not Mantic Games miniatures into their games. Removing units like Stampede is exactly the reason behind, not including Kingdom of Men army list in the core book as well. Of course, they can't do this too bluntly, otherwise they could risk angering their fanbase. So it will be slow and subtle, like the 3rd edition choices do.

But you're right, we still have time to enjoy the game before it's going too far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/22 17:34:57


 
   
 
Forum Index » Mantic Miniature Games (Kings of War, etc.)
Go to: