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godking wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
I mean I despise everything Chaos represents and it's literally my second least favorite faction behind the Dark Eldar but I can help but feel bad for Magnus specifically. I mean the rest of the Deamon Primarchs can go feth themselves but I mean Magnus was just trying to help abiet misguided. And for that misguided attempt at helping his entire world burned. Can you blame him for going full chaos and hating the Space Wolves. If we ever get a Russ Vs Magnus Showdown round 2 im def rooting for the chicken boi. What the Wolf man did to Prospero was NOT OK. He should be sprayed with a spray bottle and told how bad of a dog he is.

F magnus

He singlehandedly doomed humanity by destroying the webway.

Whatever you say whatever you claim you meant to do means nothing what you did is what matters.

Angron is the only traitor primarch i have some sympathy for all the others fell due to their own character flaws though admittedly the Emperors shocking lack of understanding human nature after being alive for millenia also played a role.

I would argue dooming humanity in 40k makes him a hero.

And then later he started to sacrifice of his fellow legionaries in demonic rituals. Oh, and he pretty much murdered at least several of his legionaries personally before he sold out to Tzeentch. I mean, murdering your own brothers for gaks and giggles is always fun! So much from all of this brotherhood of his.

pm713 wrote:
Lets be fair, it's not like the webway was a great idea or even a good one.

It was the best chance for humanity.

godking wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Lets be fair, it's not like the webway was a great idea or even a good one.

It was the best chance for humanity.

Oh that is very debatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haasbioroid wrote:

godking wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
I mean I despise everything Chaos represents and it's literally my second least favorite faction behind the Dark Eldar but I can help but feel bad for Magnus specifically. I mean the rest of the Deamon Primarchs can go feth themselves but I mean Magnus was just trying to help abiet misguided. And for that misguided attempt at helping his entire world burned. Can you blame him for going full chaos and hating the Space Wolves. If we ever get a Russ Vs Magnus Showdown round 2 im def rooting for the chicken boi. What the Wolf man did to Prospero was NOT OK. He should be sprayed with a spray bottle and told how bad of a dog he is.

F magnus

He singlehandedly doomed humanity by destroying the webway.

Whatever you say whatever you claim you meant to do means nothing what you did is what matters.

Angron is the only traitor primarch i have some sympathy for all the others fell due to their own character flaws though admittedly the Emperors shocking lack of understanding human nature after being alive for millenia also played a role.

I would argue dooming humanity in 40k makes him a hero.

Do explain the logic there.

I feel a bit more sorry for the TS legion than for Magnus, as it's clear he basically sold them in a mix of hubris or ignorance. But yeah, for all his gifts, he was slotted into a no-win scenario. His best move was to let his legion die.


Of all the primarchs, the one I feel most sorry for is Fulgrim. Hey, you picked up a nice sword, enjoy the soul trap while a daemon runs around in your body.

I know it's a meme, but Fulgrim literally did nothing wrong. Though he did teach his legion to be stuffed shirts and jerks.

pm713 wrote:

godking wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Lets be fair, it's not like the webway was a great idea or even a good one.

It was the best chance for humanity.

Oh that is very debatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haasbioroid wrote:

godking wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
I mean I despise everything Chaos represents and it's literally my second least favorite faction behind the Dark Eldar but I can help but feel bad for Magnus specifically. I mean the rest of the Deamon Primarchs can go feth themselves but I mean Magnus was just trying to help abiet misguided. And for that misguided attempt at helping his entire world burned. Can you blame him for going full chaos and hating the Space Wolves. If we ever get a Russ Vs Magnus Showdown round 2 im def rooting for the chicken boi. What the Wolf man did to Prospero was NOT OK. He should be sprayed with a spray bottle and told how bad of a dog he is.

F magnus

He singlehandedly doomed humanity by destroying the webway.

Whatever you say whatever you claim you meant to do means nothing what you did is what matters.

Angron is the only traitor primarch i have some sympathy for all the others fell due to their own character flaws though admittedly the Emperors shocking lack of understanding human nature after being alive for millenia also played a role.

I would argue dooming humanity in 40k makes him a hero.

Do explain the logic there.

Humanity are huge genocidal jerks in 40k and almost all of them are living miserable quasi-lives anyway?

The whole crux of the story is that none of the Primarchs were going to work out correctly. Not with Dr. Manhattan as a father figure.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The whole crux of the story is that none of the Primarchs were going to work out correctly. Not with Dr. Manhattan as a father figure.

They were adults when the Emperor found them, almost to a man having risen to figures of prominence. They were genetically engineered to be ideal warlords and princes of a galactic empire. How much fathering should they realistically have required?

Feel what you want, but Magnus is the architect of his own downfall, not the Emperor. Ahriman read Magnus mind as he described how the Emperor had taught him the dangers of the warp. Magnus' lies were revealed to Ahriman: Magnus had feigned ignorance to his father, while secretly he had already dabbled beyond what his father was warning him of. He could have been honest, he could have been humble, he could have just been obedient.

Magnus thought he knew better. He didn't. And history showed that he had made himself the puppet of a dark intelligence long before the wolves arrived.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The whole crux of the story is that none of the Primarchs were going to work out correctly. Not with Dr. Manhattan as a father figure.

That makes for a poor story, though. Puppets stuck with a predetermined role and fate aren't characters with agency, which makes them far less interesting to read about. Their flaws and hubris don't lead to their fall, the script does. And in some cases, like the Lion, the flaws and hubris don't matter and he doesn't fall, despite being clearly tainted and making terrible choices that lead directly to his legion being split.

It's also inconsistent in the telling. Magnus is partially where he is because of his choices. Horus sort of is, but the rationale provided by the HH novels is 'I know it's a trap but I'm going to do it anyway, because screw you that's why!'

nataliereed1984 wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to feel bad for Magnus. Like, you're also supposed to think he's a jerk, but… I mean, yeah, it's a tragedy. It's awful what happened to Magnus, but there was never any way Magnus could have avoided his downfall. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

Something I think a lot of people miss about the Horus Heresy in general is that the whole thing is a tragedy in the Classical sense. Like, not just that bad things happened, but that bad things inevitably happened, and it never really could have gone any other way. Emps tried to create a nice, happy, secular, united, democratic future for humanity, but the horrific means by which He tried to achieve it - war, genocide, autocracy, lies, forcefully imposed lies, creating superhuman children and then using them like nothing but tools, etc etc etc - fundamentally and irreparably undermined His goals from the very start. Or, put more simply: His goals were good, but His methods were awful, and the latter doomed the former. The way he treats Magnus is a perfect example of how a happy utopian future under Emp's rule wasn't an option anyway.

Great analysis! I broke down two years ago and finally started the Horus Heresy. After finding 40K BL novels rather hit and miss here were novels that I could get into! Why? Because they were tragedies with characters that I found interesting. I knew how it ended, but that was fine.

Magnus engineered his own downfall (with some help along the way), but we can still have sympathy for him. That's what makes it an effective tragedy.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to feel bad for Magnus. Like, you're also supposed to think he's a jerk, but… I mean, yeah, it's a tragedy. It's awful what happened to Magnus, but there was never any way Magnus could have avoided his downfall. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

Something I think a lot of people miss about the Horus Heresy in general is that the whole thing is a tragedy in the Classical sense. Like, not just that bad things happened, but that bad things inevitably happened, and it never really could have gone any other way. Emps tried to create a nice, happy, secular, united, democratic future for humanity, but the horrific means by which He tried to achieve it - war, genocide, autocracy, lies, forcefully imposed lies, creating superhuman children and then using them like nothing but tools, etc etc etc - fundamentally and irreparably undermined His goals from the very start. Or, put more simply: His goals were good, but His methods were awful, and the latter doomed the former. The way he treats Magnus is a perfect example of how a happy utopian future under Emp's rule wasn't an option anyway.

Great analysis! I broke down two years ago and finally started the Horus Heresy. After finding 40K BL novels rather hit and miss here were novels that I could get into! Why? Because they were tragedies with characters that I found interesting. I knew how it ended, but that was fine.

Magnus engineered his own downfall (with some help along the way), but we can still have sympathy for him. That's what makes it an effective tragedy.

Funny thing is,, "knowing how it ends" has always been a staple feature of Classical tragedy!

Please feel free to call me out if I'm sounding pretentious or condescending, I apologize if so, but this is what "dramatic irony" means. (It's different from the modern meaning of irony). Like, the audience already knows that Oedipus accidentally killed his dad and his new wife is actually his mother, but Oedipus doesn't.. so at certain points, they can play with that, and do jokes or bits of foreshadowing that the audience is in on.

A lot of BL writers do the same thing, playing with how we know Mortarion will become a daemon and a psyker and a tyrant and everything he hates, that Magnus is being played by Chaos from the start, that Jaghetai Khan is the one who will remain loyal despite having the most motives for betrayal and Fulgrim is the one who will turn traitor despite having the most motives for loyalty*, that Horus will kill Sanguinius, that Fulgrim will kill Ferrus, that Vengeful Spirit's bridge will be the scene of the deaths of Horus, Emps and Sanguinius, etc etc etc.

EVERY time there's a layered meaning or "wink-wink" based on you knowing that stuff, but not the characters, it's Dramatic Irony. Straight out of Classical Greek Tragedy.


* - I mean relative to the other loyalists and traitors, respectively.

nataliereed1984,

Lol. I was thinking earlier how the Horus Heresy is a safe Oedipus story for the British preteens/40K fandom since there is no mother to make them/us feel uncomfortable.

The sense of impending doom is part of what makes the early books work (bit like Titanic). We know how it ends (awfully of course), but not the exact story path and what will necessarily happen to the characters (less the Primarchs).

Having said all that, I felt much less sympathy for Magnus in Thousand Sons than I did for Ahriman. That sympathy has been reduced a little by the number of times I see him swanning around in a Supreme Command Detachment, but its still there. He's no Gavriel in that he did turn traitor, but it can be said that he was defending his home.

Cheers,

T2B

I've never actually read any HH novels (but yes to several short stories), so I am very very intrigued by the idea that Ahriman comes across sympathetic in them... maaaaaay have to give the Thousand Sons stuff a shot when I have a chance (alongside the Blood Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers stuff, cos I love those dudes :-P )

A Thousands Sons/Prospero Burns by Abnett would be the ones to look up and are pretty stand-alone. Legion blew me away as a kind of Le Carre take on the setting which I appreciated but opinion is... divided. I do most of my "reading" on audio book these days.

Legion is the Alpha Legion book? It was interesting, but the climax was just stupid.
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.
I also feel sorry for Russ and the Wolves, in that I despise what the HH series turned them into.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Legion is the Alpha Legion book? It was interesting, but the climax was just stupid.
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.
I also feel sorry for Russ and the Wolves, in that I despise what the HH series turned them into.

Why? The HH series hasn't done anything nearly as bad as GW did between their model fluff and SoF.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Legion is the Alpha Legion book? It was interesting, but the climax was just stupid.
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.
I also feel sorry for Russ and the Wolves, in that I despise what the HH series turned them into.

I think the Heresy Wolves are more interesting than the current Wolves.
Current Wolves have the monsters but too many caring and understanding characters to get the spotlight- Krom Dragongaze and Bran Redmaw need more screen time. Heresy Wolves were monsters with Russ and Bjorn being the only ‘nice guys’.

I feel sorry for Magnus. Yes, he did stuff he was told not to do, but he RUSHED to the Emperor’s side to warn him of what was happening, was ignored and told “you ruined everything”, then he moped about for being a failure until he found out all his children were going to be destroyed because he tried to do the right thing and he made a deal with the devil to save them.

Magnus was quite human. He was like the rebellious teen son who kept secretly disobeying his parents and playing with matches, but when someone else sets their house on fire and he tries to warn them and put it out himself, he gets accused of being the one to set it in the first place. Honestly, he sounds like he belongs in a Batman comic.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
I've never actually read any HH novels (but yes to several short stories), so I am very very intrigued by the idea that Ahriman comes across sympathetic in them... maaaaaay have to give the Thousand Sons stuff a shot when I have a chance (alongside the Blood Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers stuff, cos I love those dudes :-P )

Yeah, all Ahriman really wants is to be able to save his brothers from the flesh change and the results of his failed Rubric (which was intended to do the former), which is commendable, but it is his hubris and willingness to go to just about any lengths to do so that ends up snaring him into the trap of villainy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Legion is the Alpha Legion book? It was interesting, but the climax was just stupid.
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.
I also feel sorry for Russ and the Wolves, in that I despise what the HH series turned them into.

I think the Heresy Wolves are more interesting than the current Wolves.
Current Wolves have the monsters but too many caring and understanding characters to get the spotlight- Krom Dragongaze and Bran Redmaw need more screen time. Heresy Wolves were monsters with Russ and Bjorn being the only ‘nice guys’.

To each their own, I guess. I happen to dislike the change from kinda happygolucky "Vikings in Space" to the grimdarker-than-thou "executioners, werewolves and other monsters".
I liked the old Wolves who received a salute from Khorne Berzerkers because of their unyielding courage, and who had heroes whose last stand made Orks build a (suitably Orky of course) shrine in their honour.

But let's not derail the thread.

Bran Dawri wrote:
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.

That's not how you spell Perturabo. Rest of the chaos manbabies fell because of their own hubris and stupidity, Pert was pushed to fall - by both sides. He can be called tragic. Magnus tho? He was wiseass who always knew best, never listened to advice nor even sought it - had he went to Terra by ship, or hell, even told Ahriman what happened so someone can discuss surrender terms things could be fixed - but no, that dumb baby frakked up everything then decided to have his own world killed out of spite without telling anyone.

 ikeulhu wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
I've never actually read any HH novels (but yes to several short stories), so I am very very intrigued by the idea that Ahriman comes across sympathetic in them... maaaaaay have to give the Thousand Sons stuff a shot when I have a chance (alongside the Blood Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers stuff, cos I love those dudes :-P )

Yeah, all Ahriman really wants is to be able to save his brothers from the flesh change and the results of his failed Rubric (which was intended to do the former), which is commendable, but it is his hubris and willingness to go to just about any lengths to do so that ends up snaring him into the trap of villainy.

He's also quite a bit more pragmatic about the costs of power- hence telling off phosis for using telekinesis when two hands, a bit of patience and a brush would do perfectly well, as if there was no risk to using the warp for trivial stuff.

His John French trilogy is a very good series, and I agree I have more sympathy for him than Magnus. It's also interesting so see the extent tzeench fecked with his life personally in the hope of pushing him to create the rubric....

He should have been punished more.

Caused massive damage through his ignorance and over-confidence, and then made a deal with the Chaos Powers in the last moments and damned himself rather than face the consequences. A coward.

 Irbis wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
As to the OT, Magnus is definitely the most sympathetic of the fallen primarchs.

That's not how you spell Perturabo. Rest of the chaos manbabies fell because of their own hubris and stupidity, Pert was pushed to fall - by both sides. He can be called tragic. Magnus tho? He was wiseass who always knew best, never listened to advice nor even sought it - had he went to Terra by ship, or hell, even told Ahriman what happened so someone can discuss surrender terms things could be fixed - but no, that dumb baby frakked up everything then decided to have his own world killed out of spite without telling anyone.

Very much so. I finally just got around to reading Angel Exterminatus, and wow does that book do a great job of showing how Perturabo was not a complete donkey cave and was definitely pushed into his fall. Before reading that book I was more sympathetic towards Magnus, but after Angel Exterminatus I can see that Pertaburo's fall was much less led by hubris making it more of a shame to have happened.

When I was a kid, I had personality which pushed me heavily into Thousands Sons and Magnus. Yet, when I was reading wiki, I never grow connected with him. Even when reading books, I couldn't relate or sympathize with him. It is strange, because I got instant bond with Lorgar and could understand him intimately what he was trying to say. Yet, look at Arch Warhammer and his video about him. He literally could not get anything what he or his environment was saying. It is not as much as critique, but more as a reflection. I think that whatever you like or sympathize with someone is more down to how you relate to that character on emotional level than anything. I for example can't stand that red donkey-cave. He is deeply hypocritical, does nothing and constantly whines about fate and how obscurely wise he is. Yet, he is too stupid to notice when demons are toying with him and tells that right to his face. He is fine with killing his own legionaress directly and indirectly to cover his tracks. He is fine to let his legion to be consumed by flesh change on their new planet rather than do something about it. I think it is his massive ego which doesn't allow him to try again, because he tried once and failed which in his head means it is impossible. Then after abandoning his legion to slowly die off, he comes back at them all pissed, because they had tried to save themselves and succeeded. I hate Magnus character and despite loving everything that Thousand Sons are, I absolutely despise him for some reason.

I am forever messed up by watching "If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device".
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyiDf91_bTEgnBN0jAvzNbqzrlMGID5WA
Magnus is portrayed as the straight-man in the running joke of that "show".
Both in those episodes and in the Fluff of 40k you cannot help feeling he always meant well and was continually being messed with.
He gave the impression that if you really managed to make him angry it would go to apocalyptic levels.

I'm not sure the Rubric counts as saving them seeing as they still had the Flesh Change afterwards (albeit greatly reduced) and most of their Legion died.

The Rubric definitely did not save them, because it failed. If the Rubric had been completed successfully the results would have been different, or at least Ahriman believes so.

Their souls were saved, safely stored within their suits of armor. Thousand Sons had created galaxy wide famous army of rubric marines which was their one of the greatest boons. It also had allowed to preserve their legion's strength, by encasing their souls into their armor, they had ensured that they will continue to serve Thousand Sons for thousands of years instead of rapidly devolving into beasts and starting to kill each other. At the same time, they could recruit once again and increase their own number. Their strength grew due to rubric as it had benefit the legion in long term and it also had grossly increased their individual powers. Ritual of Rubric had succeeded beyond all possible expectations.

"In the aftermath of the cataclysm, it became clear that the Rubric had either succeeded beyond all possible expectations or failed abominably, depending on how one looked at it. Instead of purging the flesh of ravening mutations, each of the Thousand Sons had been transformed. The seals and joints of their Power Armour had been welded shut, and the body within turned to ashes. What remained was a suit of animated armour, devoid of mutation, but of all sentience and will as well. Ahriman had created what would later be known as the Rubric Marines. Ahriman himself, along with most of his cabal, was ecstatic: his brethren were now as he intended, protected from the "flesh-change," and the fact that they paid for this protection with the destruction of their physical bodies was in his eyes an acceptable price to pay. Others, including Magnus and Amon, were horrified that their once-proud fellow Astartes were now little more than spectral automatons, barely aware of the world around them, what remained of their minds irrevocably shattered by the ordeal. (It is to be noted that Ahriman's opinion has evolved over time, and that today he considers the Rubric as a painful but necessary evil rather than the miracle solution he once believed it to be."

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Rubric_of_Ahriman

"Magnus, angered beyond reason, assaulted the tower where Ahriman had gathered his coven. The other Chaos Sorcerers immediately knelt and abased themselves before Magnus' fury, but Ahriman remained standing, vindicated in his beliefs and utterly unrepentant. As Magnus' psychic might seized him and forced him down, he managed to hiss one spiteful sentence: "I succeeded where you failed, Magnus...," hatefully stabbing and twisting the blade of guilt into his Primarch's heart as deep and as hard as he could. Enraged, Magnus raised his immense fist to strike down Ahriman, but another voice softly insinuated itself into Magnus' mind, gently laughing and whispering, "Magnus, would you smash my pawns so readily?." For unknown reasons, Tzeentch himself interceded, staying the Daemon Prince's hand. Why he did so remains unknown. Some say that even the Architect of Fate was impressed by the Rubric, yet others whisper that the whole incident was nothing but another plot masterminded by the Great Conspirator and played out by his unwitting pawns."


In the end, Ahriman had the balls to mock his Primarch directly. To put even more insult to injury, Tzeentch itself came to humiliate Magnus and show that he is just his bitch. As for reason why spell had turned out the way it did was, because Ahriman did not made necessary sacrifices in ensuring that his spell would succeed. He wasn't willing to give up anything for Rubric's completion and relied solely on their own powers. This arrogance had lead to what it did. They lacked knowledge, experience and power to properly do what they wanted to and so, just half-succeeded. Yet, this is what pisses me off. Magnus just sits and broods in his tower pretending to be so smart and powerful. Ahriman does his Rubric, Magnus does nothing. Rubric goes horribly wrong, Magnus does nothing, just enjoys the pain of his brothers. Rubric is complete. Magnus goes to stop the ritual when it is already done. He had exact same behavior with burning of Prospero. Space wolves destroy his planet, his capital, slaughters his sons and at last moment he changes his mind when most of his legion lays dead.

 Ernestas wrote:
Yet, this is what pisses me off. Magnus just sits and broods in his tower pretending to be so smart and powerful. Ahriman does his Rubric, Magnus does nothing. Rubric goes horribly wrong, Magnus does nothing, just enjoys the pain of his brothers. Rubric is complete. Magnus goes to stop the ritual when it is already done. He had exact same behavior with burning of Prospero. Space wolves destroy his planet, his capital, slaughters his sons and at last moment he changes his mind when most of his legion lays dead.

Magnus definitely seems to be the primarch with a "too little, too late" problem...