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I mean I despise everything Chaos represents and it's literally my second least favorite faction behind the Dark Eldar but I can help but feel bad for Magnus specifically. I mean the rest of the Deamon Primarchs can go feth themselves but I mean Magnus was just trying to help abiet misguided. And for that misguided attempt at helping his entire world burned. Can you blame him for going full chaos and hating the Space Wolves. If we ever get a Russ Vs Magnus Showdown round 2 im def rooting for the chicken boi. What the Wolf man did to Prospero was NOT OK. He should be sprayed with a spray bottle and told how bad of a dog he is.

I say thee nay

Yes, he was absolutely rash, impulsive and arrogantly confident in not just his abilities, but his understanding.

He was created to have colossal psychic potential. Designed from the ground up for that specific job. That his Creator then saw fit to not explain any of the risks at all, then throw dolly from the peak when his overconfidence leads to accident?

That is not on Magnus at all.

And he only did it out of desperation. He felt the pressing need to inform The Emperor of what was happening/might be about to happen (I forget if horse or cart came first here).

In this, The Emperor is akin to the worst kind of boss you could ever meet. One who silently watches you so something wrong time and time again, never telling you, never guiding or training you suitably, until they decide it’s Gross Misconduct and sack you (personal experience).

Magnus, out of all the Traitor Primarchs did not need to fall. Not in the least.

Yes, Horus deliberately corrupted Russ’ orders from Terra. But even so. That is not on Magnus.

It’s like blaming a kid for sticking their hand in the fire when nobody has ever tried to hold them back from doing it in the first place.

Magnus is the best tragedy in 40k, in that his comeuppance is entirely deserved but still you feel abd for it. it's pretty good writing TBH

BrianDavion wrote:
Magnus is the best tragedy in 40k, in that his comeuppance is entirely deserved but still you feel abd for it. it's pretty good writing TBH

Honestly hes the one and only Daemon Primarch I wont to be redeemed. To somehow be brought back into the fold.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to feel bad for Magnus. Like, you're also supposed to think he's a jerk, but… I mean, yeah, it's a tragedy. It's awful what happened to Magnus, but there was never any way Magnus could have avoided his downfall. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

Something I think a lot of people miss about the Horus Heresy in general is that the whole thing is a tragedy in the Classical sense. Like, not just that bad things happened, but that bad things inevitably happened, and it never really could have gone any other way. Emps tried to create a nice, happy, secular, united, democratic future for humanity, but the horrific means by which He tried to achieve it - war, genocide, autocracy, lies, forcefully imposed lies, creating superhuman children and then using them like nothing but tools, etc etc etc - fundamentally and irreparably undermined His goals from the very start. Or, put more simply: His goals were good, but His methods were awful, and the latter doomed the former. The way he treats Magnus is a perfect example of how a happy utopian future under Emp's rule wasn't an option anyway.

He is one of the many reasons I hate the Imperium of Man and wish for it's utter destruction. Maybe he'll show up and rip that corpse off the golden throne and take a seat, then he can use the Astronomican to give the rest of Chaos a stable portal in and out of the immaterium.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
He is one of the many reasons I hate the Imperium of Man and wish for it's utter destruction. Maybe he'll show up and rip that corpse off the golden throne and take a seat, then he can use the Astronomican to give the rest of Chaos a stable portal in and out of the immaterium.

Annndddd that's supposed to be a good thing? Like I agree the imperium is a piece of gak but i dont think Daemons would male it better. Honestly I am struggling to think even a single thing that could possibly be made better by adding a friggin Daemon to it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I say thee nay

Yes, he was absolutely rash, impulsive and arrogantly confident in not just his abilities, but his understanding.

He was created to have colossal psychic potential. Designed from the ground up for that specific job. That his Creator then saw fit to not explain any of the risks at all, then throw dolly from the peak when his overconfidence leads to accident?

That is not on Magnus at all.

And he only did it out of desperation. He felt the pressing need to inform The Emperor of what was happening/might be about to happen (I forget if horse or cart came first here).

In this, The Emperor is akin to the worst kind of boss you could ever meet. One who silently watches you so something wrong time and time again, never telling you, never guiding or training you suitably, until they decide it’s Gross Misconduct and sack you (personal experience).

Magnus, out of all the Traitor Primarchs did not need to fall. Not in the least.

Yes, Horus deliberately corrupted Russ’ orders from Terra. But even so. That is not on Magnus.

It’s like blaming a kid for sticking their hand in the fire when nobody has ever tried to hold them back from doing it in the first place.

Out of all the Primarchs, Magnus is the one that specifically received the most 1:1 tutelage regarding the Warp, even before he left his capsule.

chimera0205 wrote:

 Haasbioroid wrote:
He is one of the many reasons I hate the Imperium of Man and wish for it's utter destruction. Maybe he'll show up and rip that corpse off the golden throne and take a seat, then he can use the Astronomican to give the rest of Chaos a stable portal in and out of the immaterium.

Annndddd that's supposed to be a good thing? Like I agree the imperium is a piece of gak but i dont think Daemons would male it better. Honestly I am struggling to think even a single thing that could possibly be made better by adding a friggin Daemon to it.

It would be better because the Imperium of Man would be wiped out. I have no heroes there. There isn't a single sympathetic character for me to cling to.

I think Magnus is a complete ass and is completely at fault but I still feel bad for him.

Indeed, Magnus is an arrogant ass but he still got a very bum deal. Feeling bad for Magnus is expected, as the tragedy of Magnus is quite intentional, much like the rest of the tragicness of the setting.

I love how demons were telling him directly what was going to happen to him and what they are going to do with his legion. Magnus was so arrogant that nothing you would say to him would matter. This is piece of irony I find particularly delicious with him.

chimera0205 wrote:

 Haasbioroid wrote:
He is one of the many reasons I hate the Imperium of Man and wish for it's utter destruction. Maybe he'll show up and rip that corpse off the golden throne and take a seat, then he can use the Astronomican to give the rest of Chaos a stable portal in and out of the immaterium.

Annndddd that's supposed to be a good thing? Like I agree the imperium is a piece of gak but i dont think Daemons would male it better. Honestly I am struggling to think even a single thing that could possibly be made better by adding a friggin Daemon to it.

Heavy metal bands?

Nurglitch wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I say thee nay

Yes, he was absolutely rash, impulsive and arrogantly confident in not just his abilities, but his understanding.

He was created to have colossal psychic potential. Designed from the ground up for that specific job. That his Creator then saw fit to not explain any of the risks at all, then throw dolly from the peak when his overconfidence leads to accident?

That is not on Magnus at all.

And he only did it out of desperation. He felt the pressing need to inform The Emperor of what was happening/might be about to happen (I forget if horse or cart came first here).

In this, The Emperor is akin to the worst kind of boss you could ever meet. One who silently watches you so something wrong time and time again, never telling you, never guiding or training you suitably, until they decide it’s Gross Misconduct and sack you (personal experience).

Magnus, out of all the Traitor Primarchs did not need to fall. Not in the least.

Yes, Horus deliberately corrupted Russ’ orders from Terra. But even so. That is not on Magnus.

It’s like blaming a kid for sticking their hand in the fire when nobody has ever tried to hold them back from doing it in the first place.

Out of all the Primarchs, Magnus is the one that specifically received the most 1:1 tutelage regarding the Warp, even before he left his capsule.

And even then, it was utterly inadequate,

I’ll relate the tale of my GCSE Technology course (two years long), and exam.

Now, I was 14 when I started the course, 16 when I sat the exam. That of course means Wee Me new eff all about eff all, despite my protestation to the contrary. I was entirely in the hands of my teachers at the time, who shall remain nameless.

Suffice to say, after two years of learning how to construct and draw a box, and various joints, and having dickheads loot my project folder, forcing constant restarts? My entire year opened the exam paper, gasped, and wondered ‘what the feth is a camshaft’.

You may have received tutelage. Doesn’t mean it was competent, truthful or useful.

Every artifice of man is inadequate when measured against the Gods. I'm not going to blame Magnus for bargaining with entities whose defining characteristics is their incomprehensibility, and losing. Or the Emperor, for that matter.

He made deals with chaos early on, so, not really. But then I believe that bad father's make bad kids, so you can't really blame any of the primarchs for being arrogant, insolent man babies.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
He made deals with chaos early on, so, not really. But then I believe that bad father's make bad kids, so you can't really blame any of the primarchs for being arrogant, insolent man babies.

Thing is, can you really say that the Emp was a father to any of them? It's not like he raised them. Some of them found father figures on their worlds after they were scattered. At best the big E was kind of a step-dad that showed up after they reached adulthood.

Stepdads are rarely embraced so quickly. Angron had the closest reaction to a stepdad.

I think part of it though is that they… weren't even remotely normal humans, and didn't have anyone around them at all like themselves, and didn't know why they were different or where they came from. So when Emperor comes along, and they find out not only who and what they are, and that there are others like them, but also get a new family… yeah, I can see that having a different emotional resonance than an adopted child simply meeting their biological father later in life. And I can see the emotional attachment being a bit stronger.

Had the Emperor raised the Primarchs himself as intended, I think it is safe to say they would have turned out very differently. IIRC in Wolfsbane, Russ sees a vision of himself as he might have been, neatly turned out in uniform. Even if it didn't destroy them, Chaos probably did a more effective job of mucking up the Imperium by ensuring the Primarchs grew up corrupted, misguided and suggestible.

"Thousand Sons" was a great read and I liked the character. Sure, he's pitiable but so was Perturabo in a sympathetic way.

Yes, he was a traitor and he deserved everything that befell him and his world.

There were a few things outside his control, the Flesh Change, the Big Es ultimatum decision on Librarians, Russ getting escalated by Horus, the Wolves provoking his Legion to defend their libraries and Alpha Legion shenanigans disrupting communication between him and the Wolves.

But Magnus did deal with demons as did his Legion, Magnus did openly defy the Big Es ultimatum decision, Magnus did destroy the Big Es pet project in the Webway, Magnus did fail to even try to contact Russ to tell him he intended to surrender quietly, Magnus did fail to stop his Legion from responding to the destruction of libraries, Magnus did willingly give himself to Tzeentch.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There were a few things outside his control, the Flesh Change, the Big Es ultimatum decision on Librarians, Russ getting escalated by Horus, the Wolves provoking his Legion to defend their libraries and Alpha Legion shenanigans disrupting communication between him and the Wolves.

But Magnus did deal with demons as did his Legion, Magnus did openly defy the Big Es ultimatum decision, Magnus did destroy the Big Es pet project in the Webway, Magnus did fail to even try to contact Russ to tell him he intended to surrender quietly, Magnus did fail to stop his Legion from responding to the destruction of libraries, Magnus did willingly give himself to Tzeentch.

He didn't destroy the webway on purpose, he didn't even know what it was. He didn't contact Russ because he most likely would never imagine that he would have to formally announce his surrender before they even got there. And he finally gave himself fully to Tzeentch when the only other option was his death and the destruction of his entire legion.

There is alot of tragedy to his backstory, from his treatment by the Emperor, to the burning of Prospero, to his enslavement and shattering. That being said, you have to take into consideration how many worlds he's murdered and/or mutated in the name of Tzeentch.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There is alot of tragedy to his backstory, from his treatment by the Emperor, to the burning of Prospero, to his enslavement and shattering. That being said, you have to take into consideration how many worlds he's murdered and/or mutated in the name of Tzeentch.

And how many populations did the emperor have wiped out because they refused to join the Imperium and become compliant. How many xenos were wiped out for the crime of not being human? At this point, Magnus is just dancing with the one that brought him!

 Haasbioroid wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
There were a few things outside his control, the Flesh Change, the Big Es ultimatum decision on Librarians, Russ getting escalated by Horus, the Wolves provoking his Legion to defend their libraries and Alpha Legion shenanigans disrupting communication between him and the Wolves.

But Magnus did deal with demons as did his Legion, Magnus did openly defy the Big Es ultimatum decision, Magnus did destroy the Big Es pet project in the Webway, Magnus did fail to even try to contact Russ to tell him he intended to surrender quietly, Magnus did fail to stop his Legion from responding to the destruction of libraries, Magnus did willingly give himself to Tzeentch.

He didn't destroy the webway on purpose, he didn't even know what it was. He didn't contact Russ because he most likely would never imagine that he would have to formally announce his surrender before they even got there. And he finally gave himself fully to Tzeentch when the only other option was his death and the destruction of his entire legion.

He knew at least a basic idea of what the Webway was considering he'd been studying it himself and had planned to tell the Emperor about it. Magnus could have very easily surrendered or attempted negotiation. He went from sulking alone straight to selling out to Tzeentch (for the third time) with no space in between. Then rather than admit he messed up he jumped straight on the heresy train.

chimera0205 wrote:
I mean I despise everything Chaos represents and it's literally my second least favorite faction behind the Dark Eldar but I can help but feel bad for Magnus specifically. I mean the rest of the Deamon Primarchs can go feth themselves but I mean Magnus was just trying to help abiet misguided. And for that misguided attempt at helping his entire world burned. Can you blame him for going full chaos and hating the Space Wolves. If we ever get a Russ Vs Magnus Showdown round 2 im def rooting for the chicken boi. What the Wolf man did to Prospero was NOT OK. He should be sprayed with a spray bottle and told how bad of a dog he is.

F magnus

He singlehandedly doomed humanity by destroying the webway.

Whatever you say whatever you claim you meant to do means nothing what you did is what matters.

Angron is the only traitor primarch i have some sympathy for all the others fell due to their own character flaws though admittedly the Emperors shocking lack of understanding human nature after being alive for millenia also played a role.

Lets be fair, it's not like the webway was a great idea or even a good one.

It's never wrong to feel bad for someone when bad things happen to them.