Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

You are thinking about this in the wrong way.
Ethereal interception is the Rule used by the Deathmarks. This triggers when an enemy unit is set up
Auspex scan is a rule used when a unit is set up, in this case Deathmarks.

For the sequencing rule to come into effect auspex scan would have to be triggered by you own unit being set up not the Deathmarks.
Logically the Deathmarks entire ability would resolve then auspex scan would be used.

Sequencing doesnt say anything about my own unit being set up. It says when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. Auspex scan is a rule, and ethereal interception is a rule.

This is my point. They are NOT being resolved at the same time. The examples given are end of phase start of turn etc. all things where the rules “trigger” at the same time.
Ethereal interception triggers first therefore it is not “at the same time”

It’s really not that hard.

They are resolved at the same time. One unit is set up and can shoot, another unit can shoot when an enemy unit is set up. Both units shoot when an enemy unit is set up.

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

You are thinking about this in the wrong way.
Ethereal interception is the Rule used by the Deathmarks. This triggers when an enemy unit is set up
Auspex scan is a rule used when a unit is set up, in this case Deathmarks.

For the sequencing rule to come into effect auspex scan would have to be triggered by you own unit being set up not the Deathmarks.
Logically the Deathmarks entire ability would resolve then auspex scan would be used.

Sequencing doesnt say anything about my own unit being set up. It says when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. Auspex scan is a rule, and ethereal interception is a rule.

This is my point. They are NOT being resolved at the same time. The examples given are end of phase start of turn etc. all things where the rules “trigger” at the same time.
Ethereal interception triggers first therefore it is not “at the same time”

It’s really not that hard.

They are resolved at the same time. One unit is set up and can shoot, another unit can shoot when an enemy unit is set up. Both units shoot when an enemy unit is set up.

Keep literally ignoring what I’m saying. Clearly you are have not looked at the actual rules and are going from memory as per previous replies.

Come back when you have read them all properly and then comment.

I suggest you do the same. Rules do get interrupted all the time. When you kill one of my marines and I have a banner nearby my killed marine gets to shoot instantly, when I roll a certain number. He shoots before you get to resolve the rest of your shooting.

Auspex gets to shoot before the deathmarks.

As has been posted elsewhere in this thread the interaction is,

1 Marine player sets up a unit
2 Necron player interrupts uses Deathmarks and sets them up
3 Marine players interrupts, uses Auspex scan and shoots
4 Deathmarks continue their rule and shoot
5 Marine player continues with the turn.

There are examples of other interactions that interrupt rules mid flow. as pointed out the Astartes Banner ability, allowing shooting on death, is one of these.

At no point do any of these happen at the same time, they all have different triggers that happen in sequence.

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

You are thinking about this in the wrong way.
Ethereal interception is the Rule used by the Deathmarks. This triggers when an enemy unit is set up
Auspex scan is a rule used when a unit is set up, in this case Deathmarks.

For the sequencing rule to come into effect auspex scan would have to be triggered by you own unit being set up not the Deathmarks.
Logically the Deathmarks entire ability would resolve then auspex scan would be used.

Sequencing doesnt say anything about my own unit being set up. It says when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. Auspex scan is a rule, and ethereal interception is a rule.

This is my point. They are NOT being resolved at the same time. The examples given are end of phase start of turn etc. all things where the rules “trigger” at the same time.
Ethereal interception triggers first therefore it is not “at the same time”

It’s really not that hard.

They are resolved at the same time. One unit is set up and can shoot, another unit can shoot when an enemy unit is set up. Both units shoot when an enemy unit is set up.

Keep literally ignoring what I’m saying. Clearly you are have not looked at the actual rules and are going from memory as per previous replies.

Come back when you have read them all properly and then comment.

He's not ignoring what you're saying, he's refuting what you're saying. The shooting part of ethereal interception would trigger at the same time auspex scan triggers - both are triggered by the Deathmarks being placed on the board. If auspex scan said "immediately" it would let that shooting go before the Deathmark shooting, but it doesn't, so now you have both trying to go at the same time. Since both are trying to shoot at the same time, it would be resolved by sequencing.

 doctortom wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

You are thinking about this in the wrong way.
Ethereal interception is the Rule used by the Deathmarks. This triggers when an enemy unit is set up
Auspex scan is a rule used when a unit is set up, in this case Deathmarks.

For the sequencing rule to come into effect auspex scan would have to be triggered by you own unit being set up not the Deathmarks.
Logically the Deathmarks entire ability would resolve then auspex scan would be used.

Sequencing doesnt say anything about my own unit being set up. It says when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. Auspex scan is a rule, and ethereal interception is a rule.

This is my point. They are NOT being resolved at the same time. The examples given are end of phase start of turn etc. all things where the rules “trigger” at the same time.
Ethereal interception triggers first therefore it is not “at the same time”

It’s really not that hard.

They are resolved at the same time. One unit is set up and can shoot, another unit can shoot when an enemy unit is set up. Both units shoot when an enemy unit is set up.

Keep literally ignoring what I’m saying. Clearly you are have not looked at the actual rules and are going from memory as per previous replies.

Come back when you have read them all properly and then comment.

He's not ignoring what you're saying, he's refuting what you're saying. The shooting part of ethereal interception would trigger at the same time auspex scan triggers - both are triggered by the Deathmarks being placed on the board. If auspex scan said "immediately" it would let that shooting go before the Deathmark shooting, but it doesn't, so now you have both trying to go at the same time. Since both are trying to shoot at the same time, it would be resolved by sequencing.

IMO you are wrong here. The Deathmark rule is one rule, set up and then shoot, so once the Deathmarks are setup Auspex Scan interrupts this. There is no sequencing issue as the Deathmark rule triggers before Auspex scan.

Dadavester wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

You are thinking about this in the wrong way.
Ethereal interception is the Rule used by the Deathmarks. This triggers when an enemy unit is set up
Auspex scan is a rule used when a unit is set up, in this case Deathmarks.

For the sequencing rule to come into effect auspex scan would have to be triggered by you own unit being set up not the Deathmarks.
Logically the Deathmarks entire ability would resolve then auspex scan would be used.

Sequencing doesnt say anything about my own unit being set up. It says when two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time. Auspex scan is a rule, and ethereal interception is a rule.

This is my point. They are NOT being resolved at the same time. The examples given are end of phase start of turn etc. all things where the rules “trigger” at the same time.
Ethereal interception triggers first therefore it is not “at the same time”

It’s really not that hard.

They are resolved at the same time. One unit is set up and can shoot, another unit can shoot when an enemy unit is set up. Both units shoot when an enemy unit is set up.

Keep literally ignoring what I’m saying. Clearly you are have not looked at the actual rules and are going from memory as per previous replies.

Come back when you have read them all properly and then comment.

He's not ignoring what you're saying, he's refuting what you're saying. The shooting part of ethereal interception would trigger at the same time auspex scan triggers - both are triggered by the Deathmarks being placed on the board. If auspex scan said "immediately" it would let that shooting go before the Deathmark shooting, but it doesn't, so now you have both trying to go at the same time. Since both are trying to shoot at the same time, it would be resolved by sequencing.

IMO you are wrong here. The Deathmark rule is one rule, set up and then shoot, so once the Deathmarks are setup Auspex Scan interrupts this. There is no sequencing issue as the Deathmark rule triggers before Auspex scan.

This is kinda what I have been saying.
Now the only thing to clarify... where does it state that you can interrupt mid ability?
Auspex scan will work after the complete ability is resolved.
You mention the banner but as I see it this is a completely different situation... even then attacks are made one at a time so you are not interrupting.

Skankmarron wrote:
This is kinda what I have been saying.
Now the only thing to clarify... where does it state that you can interrupt mid ability?
Auspex scan will work after the complete ability is resolved.
You mention the banner but as I see it this is a completely different situation... even then attacks are made one at a time so you are not interrupting.

Maybe the immediately keyword is the deciding factor on whether or not it interrupts an ongoing attack/sequence.

It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

Dadavester wrote:
It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

After they have shot is also after they have been set up.

Dadavester wrote:
It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

It can go at the same time at the deathmarks' shooting, which would mean it is resolved by sequencing.

I would argue that it does need to say immediately so that it could avoid having to go simultaneously.

 doctortom wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

It can go at the same time at the deathmarks' shooting, which would mean it is resolved by sequencing.

I would argue that it does need to say immediately so that it could avoid having to go simultaneously.

Sequencing is for rules rosolved at the same time... not partial rules. If you tried to resolve auspex scan before ethereal interception then the Deathmarks are not on the table thus you couldn’t use auspex scan

Skankmarron wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

It can go at the same time at the deathmarks' shooting, which would mean it is resolved by sequencing.

I would argue that it does need to say immediately so that it could avoid having to go simultaneously.

Sequencing is for rules rosolved at the same time... not partial rules. If you tried to resolve auspex scan before ethereal interception then the Deathmarks are not on the table thus you couldn’t use auspex scan

But when the Deathmarks are placed on the table Auspex Scan can be played. The Deathmarks still need to shoot. Both are trying to shoot at the same time, hence sequencing is involved. The rules only require the Deathmarks to be placed on the board; there is no statement requiring waiting until after the Deathmarks shoot to activate Auspex Scan.

 doctortom wrote:

But when the Deathmarks are placed on the table Auspex Scan can be played. The Deathmarks still need to shoot. Both are trying to shoot at the same time, hence sequencing is involved. The rules only require the Deathmarks to be placed on the board; there is no statement requiring waiting until after the Deathmarks shoot to activate Auspex Scan.

The Deathmarks still needing to shoot does not matter, as their rules were already invoked, and not at all at the same time as Auspex scan.

Thus, you place the Deathmarks, then the enemy can use Auspex Scan to shoot at the Deathmarks. Then the Deathmarks finish whatever it is they were doing.

 doctortom wrote:

Skankmarron wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
It does not need the word immediately as it interrupts the deathmarks when the strat is played.

Take this the other way, it can only be used after a unit has been set-up, so once the deathmarks have shot it cannot be used. Unless you want to argue, like BCB, that the strat can be played at anytime after a unit has been set up.

This is exactly the same as the banner as well, as the first stage of a shooting attack is picking a unit then weapon and so on. So when the banner procs it interrupts the normal rules sequence(unless it is the last weapon in the unit).

It can go at the same time at the deathmarks' shooting, which would mean it is resolved by sequencing.

I would argue that it does need to say immediately so that it could avoid having to go simultaneously.

Sequencing is for rules rosolved at the same time... not partial rules. If you tried to resolve auspex scan before ethereal interception then the Deathmarks are not on the table thus you couldn’t use auspex scan

But when the Deathmarks are placed on the table Auspex Scan can be played. The Deathmarks still need to shoot. Both are trying to shoot at the same time, hence sequencing is involved. The rules only require the Deathmarks to be placed on the board; there is no statement requiring waiting until after the Deathmarks shoot to activate Auspex Scan.

The Deathmark Rule is one rule. The trigger for this rule is the marine unit setting up. The trigger for the Auspex scan is the Deathmark unit setting up. These rules are not happening at the same time as they have different triggers, Auspex is interrupting the Deathmarks.

How do you people get the idea that rules can't be interrupted?

Have you ever resolved an ability that deals mortal wounds to multiple units at once?

so the Ethereal Interception is this:

When an enemy unit is set up (other than during deployment or when disembarking) you can immediately set up a unit of Deathmarks that was set up in a hyperspace oubliette on the battlefield, anywhere more then 9" away from any enemy models and within 12" of the enemy unti that has just been set up. You can then make a shooting attack with this unit as if it were your Shooting phase, but this attack must target the enemy unti that was just set up

IMO this would mean that the trigger, als already mentioned, is the set up of the marine. You place the DM and then could decide to shoot. There is a break in the flow of the rule. Neither do you have to nor do you immediately shoot after you place them.
Therefore, even if I do not like it that way, the marines should be able to shoot at the DM before they continue

If you were to argue with the sequencing, the DM may be able to shoot first. Since

You can then make a shooting attack with this unit as if it were your Shooting phase

There is a FAQ answer that might set a standard for interrupting a sequence of rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/30ead283.pdf page 11, primary question deals with Auspex Scan and the like.

"Q2. If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as it disembarks?A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark."

Notice the last part of the answer, since the act of Dropping in and then disembarking are two parts of a single rule, the way they worded the above answer might also apply here.

The Deathmarks are going to get shot first. Then if they survive, can shoot their target.

 Draco765 wrote:
There is a FAQ answer that might set a standard for interrupting a sequence of rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/30ead283.pdf page 11, primary question deals with Auspex Scan and the like.

"Q2. If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as it disembarks?A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark."

Notice the last part of the answer, since the act of Dropping in and then disembarking are two parts of a single rule, the way they worded the above answer might also apply here.

The Deathmarks are going to get shot first. Then if they survive, can shoot their target.

That's some solid supporting evidence that sets a precedent that rules with more than one step can be interrupted in between steps.

It does no such thing. All it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, presumably because GW doesn't follow the RaW that disembarking units are technically Reinforcements as per the BRB definition.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does no such thing. All it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, presumably because GW doesn't follow the RaW that disembarking units are technically Reinforcements as per the BRB definition.

I guess it's a good thing then that we're dealing with Auspex Scan in this thread here.

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does no such thing. All it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, presumably because GW doesn't follow the RaW that disembarking units are technically Reinforcements as per the BRB definition.

I guess it's a good thing then that we're dealing with Auspex Scan in this thread here.

And it's a good thing I wasn't talking about the Aspex Scan issue, I was refering to Kriswall's claim that it is "precedent that rules with more than one step can be interrupted in between steps."

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does no such thing. All it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, presumably because GW doesn't follow the RaW that disembarking units are technically Reinforcements as per the BRB definition.

I guess it's a good thing then that we're dealing with Auspex Scan in this thread here.

And it's a good thing I wasn't talking about the Aspex Scan issue, I was refering to Kriswall's claim that it is "precedent that rules with more than one step can be interrupted in between steps."

To quote you " it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, "

That FAQ dealt with Auspex Scan interrupting something. This topic deals with Auspex Scan interrupting Deathmarks popping in and shooting. Still dealing with Auspex Scan.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It does no such thing. All it is is another Special Snowflake FAQ that applies only to Auspex Scan and nothing else, presumably because GW doesn't follow the RaW that disembarking units are technically Reinforcements as per the BRB definition.

I guess it's a good thing then that we're dealing with Auspex Scan in this thread here.

And it's a good thing I wasn't talking about the Aspex Scan issue, I was refering to Kriswall's claim that it is "precedent that rules with more than one step can be interrupted in between steps."

Do you actually know what precedent is? For your understanding, here's the definition... "an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances". I'd say the examples qualifies as a guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

If you're going to be so meticulous, at least look up the words you don't understand.

Whilst I do think BCB is being a little bit silly, I do have to say that precedent isnt really a thing in GW rules. In one place an FAQ goes one way, in another an other. Such are the whims of GW.

 Stux wrote:
Whilst I do think BCB is being a little bit silly, I do have to say that precedent isnt really a think in GW rules. In one place an FAQ goes one way, in another an other. Such are the whims of GW.

Sure, but having examples of how they've ruled in previous situations is always useful to the conversation. It's not proof, but then again, nothing we say here really matters if there is a legitimate ambiguity in the rules. We're mostly argued HIWPI and RAI. BCB is one of the only people who really wants to doggedly focus on RAW to the exclusion of RAI.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Whilst I do think BCB is being a little bit silly, I do have to say that precedent isnt really a think in GW rules. In one place an FAQ goes one way, in another an other. Such are the whims of GW.

Sure, but having examples of how they've ruled in previous situations is always useful to the conversation. It's not proof, but then again, nothing we say here really matters if there is a legitimate ambiguity in the rules. We're mostly argued HIWPI and RAI. BCB is one of the only people who really wants to doggedly focus on RAW to the exclusion of RAI.

So by that logic we can use Codex: Space Marines stratagems on Space Wolves because the Death Guard FAQ set the precident.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Whilst I do think BCB is being a little bit silly, I do have to say that precedent isnt really a think in GW rules. In one place an FAQ goes one way, in another an other. Such are the whims of GW.

Sure, but having examples of how they've ruled in previous situations is always useful to the conversation. It's not proof, but then again, nothing we say here really matters if there is a legitimate ambiguity in the rules. We're mostly argued HIWPI and RAI. BCB is one of the only people who really wants to doggedly focus on RAW to the exclusion of RAI.

So by that logic we can use Codex: Space Marines stratagems on Space Wolves because the Death Guard FAQ set the precident.

Your logic is wrong, but I think you already knew that.

You do you. If you want to intentionally pretend like you don't understand, maybe the conversation is better off without your contributions.

We have mutliple examples of rules being interrupted mid flow.

To get back to the matter at hand. Auspex scan shoots before the deathmarks as it interrupts the deathmark rule.

This is not a squencing issue as they all have different triggers, which hapoen at different times. Even if it was it is the Marine players turn so they get choose, and Auspex scan still fires first.

Dadavester wrote:
We have mutliple examples of rules being interrupted mid flow.

To get back to the matter at hand. Auspex scan shoots before the deathmarks as it interrupts the deathmark rule.

This is not a squencing issue as they all have different triggers, which hapoen at different times. Even if it was it is the Marine players turn so they get choose, and Auspex scan still fires first.

From a practical standpoint, in this case even with sequencing, it's the Space Marines player's turn, so even with sequencing the SM player would get to choose which would go first, which would normally be the SM players shooting before the Deathmarks..