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That minor update to the marine dex doesn't seem like a big deal to you, because it doesn't change anything. The player base who uses it will be happy that it's consolidated and fine tuned, but in touch with their expectations.

But what I am saying is that it could have been the new Dark Eldar dex instead of being a new edition, and it wasn't. So now, obviously, we wait longer to get our characters back than we would have if this had never happened.

I'm excited about new Necron stuff- they didn't already have 150+ kits available, so that's good. I don't play them, but I might start.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: eliminating Finecast should have been GW's priority as soon as the dexes were done. Imagine an edition were you could start clean, knowing you'd never be forced to buy finecast because it was the only option available.

Just think of all those folks who haven't played in a few editions, hear about 9th, get stoked to try an army they've always liked but never explored. Then they're all like "Oh, I always thought the Court of the Arcon was cool, but like... Finecast, what? Isn't this supposed to be new?"

And look, previous posters are right that little splash releases and WD content and whatever will still bring SOME new stuff into the game. But the things left undone at the end of the edition are always the last priority in a new edition.

It won't stop development- never claimed that. It will slow development down and redirect it toward the more established parts of the franchise not because they actually need new content, but merely because they haven't received content yet for the current edition.

And I've been playing since 89. I've reacted the same way every edition change. I react the same way when Dungeons and Dragons changes editions. How many dozens of campaign worlds would we have had if we were still using AD&D rules, or better yet the open 3.5 which became Pathfinder?

And if we were still using Rogue Trader rules, all 24 factions would have 150 units available because it would have been the only way to keep releasing new products. With that much gear for other factions, you might just find that space marines don't always have to be the big seller.

 alextroy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...I wouldn't be so sure about that. During the course of 8th Edition we got new codexes for all the prior codexes, a major expansion to Codex Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus, and new Codexes for Thousands Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Chaos Knights, and Adepta Sororitas. Not a bad track record for about three years since edition release.

What major expansion to the Mechanicum? Everything we've got now was there in 7e (split into two Codexes for stupid reasons), the new stuff is being pushed back into 9e, and we still don't have rules for any of the Forge World units.

You can pretend the Engine War new units aren't during 8th Edition if you want to, but 3 kits making 7 units is a rather big expansion in my book. And before that we got the 2 vehicles and the Kill Team character, which is ignoring the Blackstone Fortress character. Name another existing faction outside of GSC and Space Marines that have gotten more in 8th Edition?

Sisters of Battle?

Functionally a new army since it had exactly 2 plastic kits, one which was replaced. I was asking about existing armies that got expansions.

 alextroy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...I wouldn't be so sure about that. During the course of 8th Edition we got new codexes for all the prior codexes, a major expansion to Codex Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus, and new Codexes for Thousands Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Chaos Knights, and Adepta Sororitas. Not a bad track record for about three years since edition release.

What major expansion to the Mechanicum? Everything we've got now was there in 7e (split into two Codexes for stupid reasons), the new stuff is being pushed back into 9e, and we still don't have rules for any of the Forge World units.

You can pretend the Engine War new units aren't during 8th Edition if you want to, but 3 kits making 7 units is a rather big expansion in my book. And before that we got the 2 vehicles and the Kill Team character, which is ignoring the Blackstone Fortress character. Name another existing faction outside of GSC and Space Marines that have gotten more in 8th Edition?

I describe Engine War new units as "not during 8e" because they were announced during 8e but we're not going to be able to get them until long after 9e's announcement. We'll have them on the table for, what, a week of 8e? 2 weeks?

 alextroy wrote:
Functionally a new army since it had exactly 2 plastic kits, one which was replaced. I was asking about existing armies that got expansions.

By the same token you could argue that all the space marine releases are functionally a new army. Everything has been Primaris, not a single new unit or resculpt of existing units AFAIK.

PenitentJake wrote:
That minor update to the marine dex doesn't seem like a big deal to you, because it doesn't change anything. The player base who uses it will be happy that it's consolidated and fine tuned, but in touch with their expectations.

But what I am saying is that it could have been the new Dark Eldar dex instead of being a new edition, and it wasn't. So now, obviously, we wait longer to get our characters back than we would have if this had never happened.

I'm excited about new Necron stuff- they didn't already have 150+ kits available, so that's good. I don't play them, but I might start.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: eliminating Finecast should have been GW's priority as soon as the dexes were done. Imagine an edition were you could start clean, knowing you'd never be forced to buy finecast because it was the only option available.

Just think of all those folks who haven't played in a few editions, hear about 9th, get stoked to try an army they've always liked but never explored. Then they're all like "Oh, I always thought the Court of the Arcon was cool, but like... Finecast, what? Isn't this supposed to be new?"

And look, previous posters are right that little splash releases and WD content and whatever will still bring SOME new stuff into the game. But the things left undone at the end of the edition are always the last priority in a new edition.

It won't stop development- never claimed that. It will slow development down and redirect it toward the more established parts of the franchise not because they actually need new content, but merely because they haven't received content yet for the current edition.

And I've been playing since 89. I've reacted the same way every edition change. I react the same way when Dungeons and Dragons changes editions. How many dozens of campaign worlds would we have had if we were still using AD&D rules, or better yet the open 3.5 which became Pathfinder?

And if we were still using Rogue Trader rules, all 24 factions would have 150 units available because it would have been the only way to keep releasing new products. With that much gear for other factions, you might just find that space marines don't always have to be the big seller.

Doesn't work like that.

The miniature design team couldn't care less about 2nd or 17th edition, they will do their work at their pace.

Finecast is not going to stay with us longer because rules are changing, there is simply no relation there. Finecast will stay with us exactly as long as it makes business sense for it to do so, because going from resin to plastic has quite a lot of non-recurring costs. So if i don't expect that kit to sell a lot, i'm not going to do it.

To be honest, with the few things we know so far, it feels much more like a 5th->6th change which had a huge impact on the game than a 6th->7th change which didn't change much more than the combined CA did so far.

It’s worth noting that in 4-7 Ed 40k and 7-8 WFB (which 9th is equivalent to) by no means did every codex get re-released each edition. (There were still 3rd Ed books in use in 5th Ed 40k and one 6th Ed book in use when they blew up WFB).

It’s quite possible that only two thirds or so of the current codexes get done, with some new things slotted in between then.

PenitentJake wrote:

And I've been playing since 89. I've reacted the same way every edition change. I react the same way when Dungeons and Dragons changes editions. How many dozens of campaign worlds would we have had if we were still using AD&D rules, or better yet the open 3.5 which became Pathfinder?

And if we were still using Rogue Trader rules, all 24 factions would have 150 units available because it would have been the only way to keep releasing new products. With that much gear for other factions, you might just find that space marines don't always have to be the big seller.

Look at Battletech and how "popular" that system is - it hasn't changed much over the decades, and as a result it remains a very niche game. Sure, players that were into it in the 90's are still able to pick up the game again, but there's almost no influx of new players.

D&D and Warhammer (both AoS and 40k) have moved forward and are more popular than ever. Sure, there are experiments that failed (such as D&D4E), but 5E is honestly the best edition of d&d so far, in my opinion. Same with the current 40k edition, although over time the rules bloat has become a major issue. Moving to a more digital edition with the app should help fix that, it certainly helps me build characters for D&D when using dndbeyond.

I will say that I wish a day comes when all the books are in a good enough place without a change in design/power creep midway through the edition that they can just fix the main rules and everything else doesn't need to also get major adjustments so they don't need to release a new slew of updated codexes after adjusting the main rules.

It will never happen though.

The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

 Orange Knight wrote:
The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

Because what it means, in general, is another tournament format, not a unification of tournament scene under GW banner. ITC will persist, just as WTC, NOVA and all the other formats present currently. Well... NOVA might adopt GW and be done with it, as they are apparently part of the testing team.

 dadamowsky wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

Because what it means, in general, is another tournament format, not a unification of tournament scene under GW banner. ITC will persist, just as WTC, NOVA and all the other formats present currently. Well... NOVA might adopt GW and be done with it, as they are apparently part of the testing team.

We will have ti wait and see what actually is printed but it sounds like GW has been taking note and trying to create a tournament ruleset and mission pack that works for everyone, which I hope they have as ITC AoS (not sure WTC AoS) uses the GW missions but the AoS rules team were involved in events from day 1 while it still sounds like the 40k team is full of narative first players.

Aash wrote:
It’s an update to the rules rather than a full on replacement since current codex and PA rules etc are still valid.

I’ve never really understood the numbering of the editions being embraced the way it is. I think that’s why GW doesn’t refer to them as 7th, 8th 9th edition. Just a “new edition”.

They did refer to it as 9th in the preview, and they've definitely called 8th '8th' in the voxcast

i never got why so many people were jumping on others saying 9th was coming and replying along the lines of 'no, it will only be 8.5', when x.y editions have never existed

Ice_can wrote:

 dadamowsky wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

Because what it means, in general, is another tournament format, not a unification of tournament scene under GW banner. ITC will persist, just as WTC, NOVA and all the other formats present currently. Well... NOVA might adopt GW and be done with it, as they are apparently part of the testing team.

We will have ti wait and see what actually is printed but it sounds like GW has been taking note and trying to create a tournament ruleset and mission pack that works for everyone, which I hope they have as ITC AoS (not sure WTC AoS) uses the GW missions but the AoS rules team were involved in events from day 1 while it still sounds like the 40k team is full of narative first players.

By all means, I firmly believe that the design team does their best to introduce a valid set of tournament rules and missions. But I have absolutely no doubt this mission pack will be cut, reiterated, FAQed, or redone by competitive communities. People like to tweak their game, and seek their "perfect" mission pack and ruleset, that would be both fresh and interesting for spectators. I also believe that GW mission pack will be very poplar at local levels of competition (assuming it's on par to ITC or WTC).

With luck it will mean itc only does scoring like they do for AOS and kill their mission pack. That's the real issue because the missions fundamentally change the meta.

Like the NOVA dude was saying in the stream we should all be playing the same 40k. That includes missions. Not have different groups doing different missions and those missions defining the meta for those events only.

Given how FLG acts though I'm sure they will keep thinking they know better than GW and keep forking the game with their custom missions.

 dadamowsky wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

Because what it means, in general, is another tournament format, not a unification of tournament scene under GW banner. ITC will persist, just as WTC, NOVA and all the other formats present currently. Well... NOVA might adopt GW and be done with it, as they are apparently part of the testing team.

The second they start supporting tournaments running their format with pretty banners, t-shirts and other marketing material, anything but their format will die instantly. That's how WotC managed to unify tournaments for MtG.
And that's not even considering actual beneficial stuff like prize support, a tournament management software or unified floor rules.

 dadamowsky wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
The end of ITC missions and the standardisation of a competitive GW mission pack is a big change people aren't talking about yet.

Because what it means, in general, is another tournament format, not a unification of tournament scene under GW banner. ITC will persist, just as WTC, NOVA and all the other formats present currently. Well... NOVA might adopt GW and be done with it, as they are apparently part of the testing team.

The preview show said in 9th everyone would be using the same rules, whether they were in Europe, Vegas or Chicago - so it sounds like they've already got LVO/FLG, Adepticon and WTC/ETC on board with the new edition.

With all the biggies using straight 9th ed., there won't be much demand for a separate ITC ruleset.


EDIT:

Here's FLG confirming that they worked on the 9th ed. rulebook missions and will be switching over to using them in events:

Nvm, I was apparently wrong...

AnomanderRake wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...I wouldn't be so sure about that. During the course of 8th Edition we got new codexes for all the prior codexes, a major expansion to Codex Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus, and new Codexes for Thousands Sons, Death Guard, Adeptus Custodes, Chaos Knights, and Adepta Sororitas. Not a bad track record for about three years since edition release.

What major expansion to the Mechanicum? Everything we've got now was there in 7e (split into two Codexes for stupid reasons), the new stuff is being pushed back into 9e, and we still don't have rules for any of the Forge World units.

You can pretend the Engine War new units aren't during 8th Edition if you want to, but 3 kits making 7 units is a rather big expansion in my book. And before that we got the 2 vehicles and the Kill Team character, which is ignoring the Blackstone Fortress character. Name another existing faction outside of GSC and Space Marines that have gotten more in 8th Edition?

I describe Engine War new units as "not during 8e" because they were announced during 8e but we're not going to be able to get them until long after 9e's announcement. We'll have them on the table for, what, a week of 8e? 2 weeks?

That has to do more with Cornoa than with the GW release schedule. Engine War should have been out in April and now looks to be out in June, possibly on pre-order as early as next Saturday. Instead GW wasn't even able to fully distribute Saga of the Wolf in March. So, you are just being cynical about it.

Still, you can say AM is the first range expansion for 9th and you still have all the non-Space Marine expansions and launches in 8th Edition I mentioned. These have been the best three years for 40K expansion I have ever seen.

Aash wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Functionally a new army since it had exactly 2 plastic kits, one which was replaced. I was asking about existing armies that got expansions.

By the same token you could argue that all the space marine releases are functionally a new army. Everything has been Primaris, not a single new unit or resculpt of existing units AFAIK.

We will have to disagree. Every Primaris release is a new unit that adds to the options available for Space Marine armies. And remember that they were almost considered to be universally bad until Vigilus Defiant and the latest codex was released.

You know, I saw the same arguments when WotC did this, including all the slippery slope fallacies.

You also seem to be under the wrong impression that GW-style organized events are somehow limited to GW stores.

The second FLGS and event organizers start receiving free stuff for holding events in GW's style, ITC among with all the other homebrew ideas will be tossed out on the streets.
Whether large events like WTC or LVO will be able to keep their odd formats despite everyone else playing something else remains to be seen, but I highly doubt so.