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The other thing is it looks like GW has taken steps to level off some of the potential for abuse; each unit will only end up with 4 uprades, then it caps out. All characters who can legally take warlord traits will be allowed to do so in addition to those upgrades.
Most folks won't take all of their upgrades from the same category, though some might; I have a psyker or two who might max out that category.
There are Crusade Blessings, which is like a giant killer bonus, so that helps too. It is true though that Crusades will be a source of pride for most players, and cheating diminishes the capacity to take pride in the crusade. It is story based, as opposed to victory based.
I think in my campaign, we're also going to have to increase the amount of points it takes to "Level;" depending upon Mission and Agendas, a unit could be Blooded after a single game- a long shot, perhaps, but certainly possible. That's way too fast for our Cult Armies, who are starting far below the 25PL level- so far below that we're using Kill Team's game mechanics with Crusade advances for the first few games.
2-8 Genestealers are likely to survive the Space Hulk scenario and make planetfall and seed the cult.
It will probably take 8-12 games for them to grow to 25PL. We'll have to see once the game drops- that leak being all out of order really hinders my capacity to actually follow it, and I want a real book in my hands before we get going.
As presented, you are limited to 4 maximum ranks/rewards, but winning Crusade missions does seem to allow (nearly) unlimited upgrades to a particular unit above and beyond that... or at least, I don't see too many explicit limitations there.
Could easily limit it to X max Battle Honors (whatever makes sense for the campaign - 5, maybe, so you can award a character something for winning a battle without effectively rendering the last rank meaningless.
I'll need to double check, but im pretty sure youre limited to a maximum of 6 Battle Honors per unit. The cap being different from the rank cap is to account for game-reward honors.
Edit:
Confirmed. Last sentence, first paragraph in the Battle Honors section.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/05 22:57:09
Sterling191 wrote: I'll need to double check, but im pretty sure youre limited to a maximum of 6 Battle Honors per unit. The cap being different from the rank cap is to account for game-reward honors.
Edit:
Confirmed. Last sentence, first paragraph in the Battle Honors section.
Karol wrote: How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?
dude, we need to have a talk....I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is actively trying to feth over their oppoenent.
Narrative & now crusade are not geared/directed at those types of players. my playgroup has zero issues using PL in games & are looking forward to crusade) Your playgroup is (by your own posts) zero quarter cut-throat feth you lists. Not everyone plays like that or even wants to be around people like that.
.
That goes against any common knowladge that is being tought here. Even have sayings to not do deal with friends and family, because they will use their position to backstab you harder then a foreigner.
I understand that crusade is ment for narrative games, although it was also said that it can be used in matched play too, so there is that problem.
I assume that the system working is based on either on having a judge or co ordinator, who would keep all lists and be when upgrades are rolled and assigned. That is explanation enough for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Have you never played a Necromunda campaign with friends? You just do all the post-game stuff, y'know, post-game. Then you move onto the next game you're playing that day.
No, I only played w40k. And I wouldn't say I have friends. I have people convince me to start playing that were at my school, so that is the closest to that. I am worried the most that someone will claim he played 50 games at home vs his mate won 49 of them, and play that list in a match played game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 23:33:54
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote:That goes against any common knowladge that is being tought here. Even have sayings to not do deal with friends and family, because they will use their position to backstab you harder then a foreigner.
Yeah, that's definitely more the issue here, not the game mechanics.
I assume that the system working is based on either on having a judge or co ordinator, who would keep all lists and be when upgrades are rolled and assigned. That is explanation enough for me.
I mean, that's nice to have, but most people would be fine with it simply working on trust and mutual agreement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/05 23:41:03
No, I only played w40k. And I wouldn't say I have friends. I have people convince me to start playing that were at my school, so that is the closest to that. I am worried the most that someone will claim he played 50 games at home vs his mate won 49 of them, and play that list in a match played game.
Crusade is Narrative Play. By definition its rules are incompatible with Matched Play.
If you want to use points instead of PL in Crusade, that is an option (the ruleset explicitly says "its cool, but have a chat with your match partner"), but the system is designed to operate under the PL umbrella.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm going to see if I can mix Crusade with Urban Conquest.
Oh yeah, if you want to use the Streets of Death stuff, I think it will totally work. I'm using a modified version of those rules in a Crusade campaign- or rather, I'm planning to do so. The terrain rules for 9th sound way better than those in Urban Conquest. I created 15 key territories, essentially EVERY territory in my array is a key territory, though their rules aren't linked to missions and terrain in the same way. They also confer effects during the campaign phase between battles.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm going to see if I can mix Crusade with Urban Conquest.
We are probably mixing with Planetstrike, possibly and Urban Conquest.
I have a ridiculous amount of ruins/industrial terrain, and 3 bastions + enough Aegis lines to choke a table. Adding in preliminary bombardments, or auto-defenses is going to be easy and fun for various players.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Our group has at least 3 people interested in a Crusade on release. It'll be perfect for a slow-grow campaign IMHO.
One thing to remember is that by default, you don't get access to Relics and Warlord Traits off the bat. You do start with 5 Req points, though, and you can spend those to take those things when you put your force together. So when you make your Crusade force, don't forget to spend a couple of Req to grab a character with a Warlord Trait and pick up a (non-Crusade) Relic.
I'm looking forward to using this to develop a couple of new characters. I love the idea that you could give a Warlord Trait to non-Warlords to customise a character right from the start, for example. There are a couple of traits that I tend to just take because they're effective, even though I might have other traits that would work better narratively for that character, so it would be nice to have specific characters set aside for certain traits.
Karol wrote: No, I only played w40k. And I wouldn't say I have friends. I have people convince me to start playing that were at my school, so that is the closest to that. I am worried the most that someone will claim he played 50 games at home vs his mate won 49 of them, and play that list in a match played game.
The Crusade Points balancing mechanic might help somewhat here. If they've played (or claim to have played) enough games to upgrade their units 50 times, then their force will be worth 50 CruP. If you haven't played any Crusade games yet, that means you'll be gaining 25 command points for a total of 42 to use over the course of the game.
That's gotta help balance things out a bit.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/06 04:58:42
Kommissar Kel wrote: I have a ridiculous amount of ruins/industrial terrain, and 3 bastions + enough Aegis lines to choke a table. Adding in preliminary bombardments, or auto-defenses is going to be easy and fun for various players.
Kommissar Kel wrote: I have a ridiculous amount of ruins/industrial terrain, and 3 bastions + enough Aegis lines to choke a table. Adding in preliminary bombardments, or auto-defenses is going to be easy and fun for various players.
But yeah, I think mixing it in with a map-based campaign or other sorts of unusual methods of playing 40K would make the Crusade rules really sing.
3 or 4, I was poor when planetstrike first came out.
Really mad that I missed out on vengeance weapon batteries, and the firebase. I also only have 1 bunker, WoM lines, and 1 gun emplacement.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Yeah... let's take a Leman Russ Exterminator Tank Commander, and upgrade his Exterminator Autocannon to 3D, -2AP, 8S...
How about the Tauroxes? Increase their damage to 3D, so now your Light Tanks are packing an anti-Primaris autocannon pair...
Leman Russ Punisher with the bonus hits on 6's...
Yeah...
This just in: narrative gaming system can be powergamed. More at 11.
Edit: how are you getting so many upgrades on your autocannon, anyway? You can only apply a single enhancement to each weapon.
In seriousness, this is the problem with trying to retroactively add any kind of campaign progression system that applies equally to 20+ factions. As with any narrative system, players need to approach it with a "don't be a dick" mentality, and if you can't trust your opponents to do that then don't play narratively with them.
On the other hand, having such an awesomely overpowered vehicle could be an interesting narrative hook. Create a homebrew Agenda for the opponent to take out the tank, or disrupt its supply of awesome ammunition, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 02:48:02
I get where Winters is coming from, and he's right that it is odd that the narrative gaming section has been injected with a lot of very complex rules, but overall I disagree with his assessment.
I certainly see his point, but narrative gaming, but its very nature, means that you can do whatever you want. I mean, nothing in the Crusade Rules section stops you from doing exactly what he wants to do. All the Crusade section does is provide a structure for campaigns, something I simply cannot wait to see expanded upon in the upcoming Codices.
I think that for campaigns, Crusade seems like a great choice.
Our group has at least 3 people interested in a Crusade on release. It'll be perfect for a slow-grow campaign IMHO.
One thing to remember is that by default, you don't get access to Relics and Warlord Traits off the bat. You do start with 5 Req points, though, and you can spend those to take those things when you put your force together. So when you make your Crusade force, don't forget to spend a couple of Req to grab a character with a Warlord Trait and pick up a (non-Crusade) Relic.
I'm looking forward to using this to develop a couple of new characters. I love the idea that you could give a Warlord Trait to non-Warlords to customise a character right from the start, for example. There are a couple of traits that I tend to just take because they're effective, even though I might have other traits that would work better narratively for that character, so it would be nice to have specific characters set aside for certain traits.
Karol wrote: No, I only played w40k. And I wouldn't say I have friends. I have people convince me to start playing that were at my school, so that is the closest to that. I am worried the most that someone will claim he played 50 games at home vs his mate won 49 of them, and play that list in a match played game.
The Crusade Points balancing mechanic might help somewhat here. If they've played (or claim to have played) enough games to upgrade their units 50 times, then their force will be worth 50 CruP. If you haven't played any Crusade games yet, that means you'll be gaining 25 command points for a total of 42 to use over the course of the game.
That's gotta help balance things out a bit.
Thanks for the forms- I made my own, but I grabbed copies of yours too- I put some extra stuff in mine, and I'm not sure yet whether it was better or worse than the originals.
I wasn't really clear on whether the starting 5 RP were used to purchase your 25 PL. If so, saving any for upgrades means starting with other upgrades means starting with less than 25 PL. Not a problem for the cults in our campaign, but might be a deal breaker for some. Not sure if that's how it works though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/07 02:59:22
It's gonna get ridiculous pretty quickly for AM, for sure.
But meanwhile, the Y'Vahra's Phased Flamer is reaching out and touching people 20" away with the right Sept trait and a single Battle Honor, , every faction with a Character who can get it will be rocking 1+ (effectively 2++)/6+++ mortal wound saves on their beefiest example, Primaris Bike Chaplains will be hitting harder than Smash Captains with 10+ attacks generating mortal wounds on unmodified 6s, everyone and their mother will have one or two beefy boosts to survivability, mobility, or damage, and every other Big Gun in every other faction is gonna be upsized into ridiculousness.
It's gonna be chaos, for sure. But Syndrome from The Incredibles might not be entirely wrong with his "If everyone's super, no one is" maxim... and most of what I'm seeing is offensively-minded, not defensively, so almost everyone is gonna big a big ol' glass cannon once they're developed.
Thanks for the forms- I made my own, but I grabbed copies of yours too- I put some extra stuff in mine, and I'm not sure yet whether it was better or worse than the originals.
I wasn't really clear on whether the starting 5 RP were used to purchase your 25 PL. If so, saving any for upgrades means starting with other upgrades means starting with less than 25 PL. Not a problem for the cults in our campaign, but might be a deal breaker for some. Not sure if that's how it works though.
You start with a supply limit of 50 ("Order of Battle", first paragraph) and 5RP ("Battle Tally, Requisition Points and Other Information").
Crusade isn't a competitive game. It's not designed in that way. It's Necromunda, but for 40K. You don't play Necromunda competitively, as such a thing doesn't work once you start adding advances, experience, new fighters, injuries and so on.
The same applies here, so the people worrying about things being "out of control" or the "choices" everyone will be making can probably ease off the gas a bit. This is not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.
As much as 9th is 40K "Tournament Edition", there isn't going to be a "tournament meta" for Crusade, as it's not a competitive game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/07 04:01:36
I'm looking forward to checking out the crusade system. I already hoarded a mixed tileset from mighty empires & planetary empires in anticipation of some 40K campaing goodness.
Now that I know more about the crusade system, I am beginning to have some doubts about using it in its unmodified form. these XP levelups and gaining abilities seem quite "RPGs are in vogue again, lets drink the koolaid!" and unfluffy, for some factions more than others (Space Marines, war veterns of hundreds of years of battle, suddenly kill their "first" (not really their first now is it?) enemy unit and suddenly get a significant increase in their abilities? GTFO).
I like the idea of battle scars and requisition points, but I'd like the requisition points thing to only revolve around managing army logitics / combat attrition (keeping soldiers fed, supplied with ammo, tended to injuries, adding reinforcements or changing weapon loadouts). The idea of XP and levelups feels much more fitting to necromunda, where the forces are not trained military but just some uneducated punks trying to gain money/power/respect
However, I will reserve judgement until I've tried it out myself. Not looking forward to the thought of having a RPG "character sheet" for every unit in my army though.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/07 07:17:57
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
tauist wrote: I'm looking forward to checking out the crusade system. I already hoarded a mixed tileset from mighty empires & planetary empires in anticipation of some 40K campaing goodness.
Now that I know more about the crusade system, I am beginning to have some doubts about using it in its unmodified form. these XP levelups and gaining abilities seem quite "RPGs are in vogue again, lets drink the koolaid!" and unfluffy, for some factions more than others (Space Marines, war veterns of hundreds of years of battle, suddenly kill their "first" (not really their first now is it?) enemy unit and suddenly get a significant increase in their abilities? GTFO).
A valid concern. It is 3 units per XP, though, and 5/10/15/20 XP per level, so they'd need to kill 15 units just to gain the first rank through murder alone and 30 more units to gain the second.
Luckily you get XP for doing other stuff, but crucially, you control the narrative of what happens. If ypu'd rather spend all your 'battle honours' on weapons upgrades for your sergeant, representing an allied techpriest's support do that. If you'd rather imagine the grizzled trait (6+ fnp style roll) to be combat adaptations to their armour now that they have the measure of enemy weapon's fire, do that.
tauist wrote: I like the idea of battle scars and requisition points, but I'd like the requisition points thing to only revolve around managing army logitics / combat attrition (keeping soldiers fed, supplied with ammo, tended to injuries, adding reinforcements or changing weapon loadouts). The idea of XP and levelups feels much more fitting to necromunda, where the forces are not trained military but just some uneducated punks trying to gain money/power/respect
Unlike Necro, base stats don't usually change and you could imagine any advantage gained as being adaptation to a particular enemy/warzone/commander's style of leadership. 'This unit moves father because they have become confident in the abilities of their commander and comrades to support their advance' rather than 'stronger legs'
tauist wrote: However, I will reserve judgement until I've tried it out myself. Not looking forward to the thought of having a RPG "character sheet" for every unit in my army though. c
Thats the most daunting part for me too. I'll try rationalise it as less effort than painting the damn squads.
I’m interested, but disappointed it’s PL only. Given how granular and specific these rules appear to be, I’m really surprised they didn’t use points instead of PL.
It seems interesting enough though, so my group may give it a go once we have the actual rules in our hands. We have a fairly regular group, so abuse of the power ups isnt so much of a concern.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Karol wrote: How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?
Crusade is the sort of thing you would play with friends, or at least that will be the case with me. If you can't trust your friends, they aren't really good friends. The sort of people who are going to cheat on things like that, because they value winning over the experience of playing the game, probably won't play Crusade and will stick with regular match play.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So you can very quickly go to a 75 PL OOB right from the start if you wanted to. Of course, you'd have no Warlord Trait/Relic.
Important point though, just because your OOB is a certain power level, it doesnt mean your playing that many PL. You still get to pick game sizes (25, 50, 100 PL max), then make a list for that size game based on your OOB.
