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So there were some leaks.

One of the leaks was all the rules for playing a Crusade Force.

All you narrative/campaign focused players, are you going to be giving these Crusade rules a whirl?

Super-rough breakdown:

You get an army, using PL. Once you choose a unit and its gear, there is NO CHANGING IT without spending Requisition Points ("RP") (earn 1 every game you play).

If it's a drone, or a unique character (or a few others things), NO COOL NEW STUFF FOR YOU! But you automatically get your Relics and Warlord trait (even if it isn't the army's warlord), and don't have a chance for crippling injury when you die, so that's nice.

Even then, relics and warlord traits must also be purchased with RP, as do Strats that change statlines/give abilities pre-game... but your character/units get that permanently.

Being used in a battle gives (most) units Experience Points, as does destroying enemy units and the once-per-battle Marked For Greatness distinction. Units can gain ranks by earning increasingly larger amounts of XP. Leveling up gives you a plenthora of choice for a "veteran benefit", including upgrading a weapon, upgrading armor, gaining new skills/abilities/psyker stuff, and picking up artifacts. The victor for a Crusade mission also often gets a (limited choice) of vaguely thematic benefit as well(You get to give an eligible character a Crusade Relic if you win the Crusade Relic mission - what a twist!).

Dying in a battle gives you a small but not impossible chance of Bad gak Happening. That's either a penalty of some kind (charts you can choose on) or you lose Experience Points. You can use RP to buy off injuries, which is nice.

Generally, there's a TON of charts of choices, and there's almost always an express "you can roll for it, or choose what makes narrative sense" option, sometimes broken down by different unit types in terms of what you can choose, and how often. As a specific example, for Weapon Enhancements (basically, upgrading a weapon into a unique Relic), Titanic choices are limited to 1 through 3, Character/Vehicle/Monster choice is any between 1 and 6, and everyone else (generally, small frys) gets a 1 through 3 choice AND a 1 through 6 choice.

Getting upgrades (via increasing unit ranks or mission victories) increases your Crusade Points (ugh, that's not going to shorten well when we already have CP). If there's a difference in your army's CruP and your opponent's, The lower CruP player gets half the difference in bonus CP to compensate.

That personally strikes me as a raw deal for the lower CruP player, since every Weapon Enhancement isn't that far behind a Relic (and for weapons that you'd never give access to a Relic in a million years - A Y'vahra with a 20" Flamer is possible through this, for example).

Plus, unless FAQ'd, any native 2+ armor save Character can pick up an unconditioned 1+ armor save (with all the rules shenanigans that go with it) the first chance they get at a Crusade Relic. That's just nasty (and a good way to laugh at Character assassins).



For those that have read through the rules, what do you think? Seems like there's a great "build your own Legendary unique character" mechanic, but you also get to bring along your favorite units for the upgrade ride. Losing units CAN be painful, but there's generally ways to mitigate the worst of it, and you're almost always going to get more XP for your units overall than you might incidentally lose through bad rolls on dead units.

It encourages sticking to particular loadouts, which gives even non-Character units a bit of specific character.

It uses PL, but there's nothing I can see that makes it incompatible with points (a few places still might reference PL, but the core rules do that for reserves already). Given how structured the army is, I wouldn't be surprised to see points being used instead.

For the sake of sanity, it's a good thing that Weapon Enhancements are limited to Narrative/Crusade play. I suspect the results would be a parade of horribles that makes the Iron Hands debacle look like a hippy peace circle.

I'm hoping to get a local gaming group going once 9th rolls in and get some Crusade play in, personally.

Hell's yeah!

I'm all in on Crusade. I've been laying the groundwork for a massive campaign for almost a year, and what we had been planning was already along the lines of Crusade. Now that it's here, we're going to just drop it in, and each faction will be a Crusade.

Some of our factions were set to start very small (5 man Kill Teams). This is even too small for Crusade, so we're starting those factions as Kill Teams instead. We will be using Kill Team rules for the game, because at that size, you NEED alternate activation. But the post battle sequence and tracking will be done using Crusade rules. With the way requisition points are earned, it won't take long to graduate from a KT to Combat Patrol, so we're going to have the players delay spending XP until they hit Combat Patrol status (25 PL).

Right now, we're tweaking missions; in Realspace, we have a Genestealer Cult (The Cult of the Living Thresher) and a Cult of Slaanesh (Cult of the Carnal Light) stalking the Thresher Houses (think Necromunda gangs, except Agri-world farmers- lots of ATV/ Tractor conversions).

GSC missions will have a caveat that Requisition points can only be spent on models that are appropriate to the Cult's place in the breeding cycle at the time of the purchase.

On the other side of a broken webway portal in Commorragh, an Archon whose splinter realm was destroyed during the opening of the rift has begun to sponsor competing Wych cults to find the best partners for his next realspace raid.

The Kill Team games act as a prologue, and most of the missions are custom missions anyway. My thought is that by looking at both KT Missions and Crusade's Combat Patrol Missions, I will be able to come up with good missions. These first games are so small, fast and furious, you're meant to play more than one in a sitting. For example, the first session in Commorragh is an arena fight with 3 events- just like WWE has multiple matches on every episode, so too will there be multiple match ups in one Arena fight.

I'm looking forward to writing up/ filming all the bat reps and telling this story. Parts of this story are 12 years old now, so playing out the whole thing is truly legendary, and will probably take the entire run of 9th Edition.

I fully expect that by the end of it, at least two of the factions will make it all the way to Apocalypse.

Hell yeah.

Narrative's where 40k shines to begin with and the system looks both robust yet light enough that it's easy to suggest at the club until people get the gist of the new rules well enough to start tweaking with them properly. From the gameplay perspective I quite like the idea that you have secret objectives that aren't necessarily in any way connected to the mission itself but give bonus XP for a couple of units. Good time to earn yourself a name, mr. random unit sergeant number three.

PenitentJake wrote:


I'm looking forward to writing up/ filming all the bat reps and telling this story. Parts of this story are 12 years old now, so playing out the whole thing is truly legendary, and will probably take the entire run of 9th Edition.

I fully expect that by the end of it, at least two of the factions will make it all the way to Apocalypse.

This sounds awesome! Good luck, I hope you can get it to roll.

I don't really understand how any of this is more simple than just using points and giving like a 50 point and bonus to a winning army after each match, or something.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't really understand how any of this is more simple than just using points and giving like a 50 point and bonus to a winning army after each match, or something.

Well, it's certainly not more simple. But simple is something even an idiot like me could probably come up with, no?

I think a huge part of this is making each and every "veteran" unit in your army, including your subfaction's subfaction's commander, a Special Character through more intricate bespoke rules requiring actual in-game experience to flesh out.

All the points in the world aren't going to give your favorite HBC Riptide his "Reason". ("Snow Crash" by Neil Stevenson reference)

But a Weapon Enhancement might.

And that Relic you fought and died over against your hated enemy to obtain? Next game, your Warlord is using it to get his revenge.

But it certainly isn't the simplest solution. Not a small amount of bookkeeping to it.

Not a narrative player but the stuff in the OP is cool enough to make me consider it; seems like there's some actual depth there that's more than just a matched play game with inherently imbalanced missions. I love a good customization system.

It sounds really interesting and I hope more people here care about it.

I am extremely stoked for Crusade. My LGS crew tried doing something similar to it during 8th, but the lack of rules support hurt. Everyone involved is already fiddling with fun and wacky Crusade forces for 9th.

Mechanically though, Im really, really happy that there's rules support for narrative beyond "matched play lite, do what y'all want". I look forward to the faction specific expansions coming down the pike.

So I have one more spreadsheet template to design for my roster; I modified it slightly; the Order of Battle Sheet is the same, But the Crusade Card is different; it contains only tally totals. There is a Battle Record page that records the tallies for each battle, and a it has a huge block for notable actions in the battle. This way, my Order of Battle is not just a summary of my cumulative achievements, it's also a record of every battle that provides the context for when each of those achievements occurred, in both real time and game time, and against whom they were earned, both player and army.

My campaign map is 8 settlements of 25 territories each, plus a central city of 45 territories. Each city/settlement is a folder, and the individual territories are subfolders. Armies can occupy territory to take actions during the campaign phase, but they must have forces at the location to do so. Right now, all the City and Settlement maps have been populated, and all of the folders are set up. When it goes live, I just share the folders with players over the internet.

When a player occupies territory, they drop their Crusade's Order of Battle into the appropriate subfolder. Players can split their Crusade to occupy multiple territories, in which case they just place their Unit cards into the appropriate subfolders.

I might still pick up a Crusade Journal if I'm allowed to get a look inside one and judge whether or not it's worthwhile- price will also be a factor. But honestly, the digital solution is almost always better- I can augment it with photos and links; it's always the exact size it needs to be, and bits of it can be extracted for screenshots in youtube videos.

Looks like fun to me.

It sounds like great fun to me. I do hope that there is interesting stuff for all the factions, cos the example of a Marine character getting messed up and interred in a Dreadnought sounds epic to me.

It seems like a better go than there last try at it, certainly looks to be more fun to go though it.
Some stuff likes a bit to broke to really to good for it potentially.

It’s not really anything special so far, but it’s a great start for it. Hopefully they expand and clean up in future books.

I like the look of it. I'll be looking forward to getting a campaign sorted with this!

What you never wanted to play Dawn of War 2 on the tabletop?

In all seriousness, I really like it and have played narrative games in this style before. Including escalations from Kill team, through to full games adding the kill team members into units or functioning as a single unit.

Back in my day, experience-based campaign system rules were included in the core rulebook.

But paying extra for it now is cool too, I guess...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Back in my day, experience-based campaign system rules were included in the core rulebook.

But paying extra for it now is cool too, I guess...

It is. It is also included in upcoming codexes for army specific parts. The separate crusade product is a snazzy leather notebook with roster pages for people who don't enjoy making their own.

Personally dislike systems like this. Bookkeeping a dozen or more different units buffs every game I find irritating. More power to the guys like it though.

How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

I don't think they can, really.

In theory, you could swagger up to a table with an "idealized" Crusade army where the units you don't care about have Battle Scars that don't affect them (so you get reduce CruP to mitigate what you've gotten through upgrades) and you've upgraded each character exactly as far as they need to go to be CruP efficient...

But that sounds like a lot of work. Crusade is very strongly in the "Narrative" camp, so there's a bit more of a These Rules Aren't Designed To Mitigate That Guys principle one must apply when finding games at your LGS, I'd wager.

I think your worry - that a high CruP army gets more benefit from the upgrades than a lower CruP army would get from the CP bonus - is a valid one. Probably even a likely one. I'd rather lean on the side of "the experienced army with upgrades faces the harder challenge" if a perfect balance can't be found, so I'd personally advocate a different ratio than the one provided.

But yeah, nothing I can see preventing a Crusade player from fabricating results. Whether the inbuilt balancing mechanics is, well, undetermined.

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

For me if I ever get back into 40k again - you either need a dedicated organizer that keeps track of all games, or you play with a small private group of people that you trust. I would never do anything like this in a public setting again.

IMHO, Crusade isn't really a pick-up kind of game unless you both start with 'new' armies or if the rules allow you to randomly create a Crusade army. Where Crusade is going to shine is in long-term leagues where the players all know, or are at least familiar with each other.

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

dude, we need to have a talk....I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is actively trying to feth over their oppoenent.

Narrative & now crusade are not geared/directed at those types of players. my playgroup has zero issues using PL in games & are looking forward to crusade) Your playgroup is (by your own posts) zero quarter cut-throat feth you lists. Not everyone plays like that or even wants to be around people like that.

I could give 2 gaks about what's the most "broken" unit in grand tournaments, what's important to me is to tell a story. A rich and meaningful story, which isnt just KILL ALL on planet Bowlingball. Where you are presented with tactical problems that need to be solved. how they are solved is where we find enjoyment in the game.

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

Standard procedure with my playgroup when running Mordheim was to do all post-game rolls at the table immediately after the game together with the other player. If you're worried someone's going to go cheat their list between games you might either appoint a GM who keeps an extra copy of Crusade lists, or stop playing with the people you're assuming are going to start cheating the instant you stop looking at what they're doing.

Going back to things like Necromunda and Mordhiem you also didnt gain a lot past a certain point as your rating IIRC effectively stopped you playing untill people caught up as I think their was a maximum you could be above a player before they got a free pass on not playing you and you didnt gain anything, while at lower disparity you got a consolation exp etc.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

dude, we need to have a talk....I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is actively trying to feth over their oppoenent.

Narrative & now crusade are not geared/directed at those types of players. my playgroup has zero issues using PL in games & are looking forward to crusade) Your playgroup is (by your own posts) zero quarter cut-throat feth you lists. Not everyone plays like that or even wants to be around people like that.

I could give 2 gaks about what's the most "broken" unit in grand tournaments, what's important to me is to tell a story. A rich and meaningful story, which isnt just KILL ALL on planet Bowlingball. Where you are presented with tactical problems that need to be solved. how they are solved is where we find enjoyment in the game.

Exactly. The type of person that's excited to play Crusade isn't concerned by most effective upgrade vs scar balance or most efficient way to game the system across the whole army. They're the type of person that goes "remember that time my Assault Intercessors killed your Wraithlord? I'm gonna give them an upgrade to make them better at that because story."

The tournament guys aren't going to bother with Crusade, it's us Narrative casuals that attend Warhammer World Campaign Weekends and The Narrative Guys narrative events that are going to be using it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

dude, we need to have a talk....I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is actively trying to feth over their oppoenent.

Narrative & now crusade are not geared/directed at those types of players. my playgroup has zero issues using PL in games & are looking forward to crusade) Your playgroup is (by your own posts) zero quarter cut-throat feth you lists. Not everyone plays like that or even wants to be around people like that.

I could give 2 gaks about what's the most "broken" unit in grand tournaments, what's important to me is to tell a story. A rich and meaningful story, which isnt just KILL ALL on planet Bowlingball. Where you are presented with tactical problems that need to be solved. how they are solved is where we find enjoyment in the game.

Exactly. The type of person that's excited to play Crusade isn't concerned by most effective upgrade vs scar balance or most efficient way to game the system across the whole army. They're the type of person that goes "remember that time my Assault Intercessors killed your Wraithlord? I'm gonna give them an upgrade to make them better at that because story."

To clarify, those categories aren't entirely mutually exclusive, they just correlate that way.

I plan to do both!

I am super excited about it. I normally play ITC for the most part, but I am really looking forward to doing a more casual narrative event with my group and Crusades fits the bill.

Karol wrote:
How are people going to make it sure that people don't doctor their rolls or upgrades between games? Or do you have to hope that the other person isn't trying to cheat you?

Have you never played a Necromunda campaign with friends? You just do all the post-game stuff, y'know, post-game. Then you move onto the next game you're playing that day.

I'm thinking that with the new Crusade rules, putting a small group of 4-5 people to do a campaign. Make it Narrative and not make there be an incentive to win besides writing the story.

That's what its all about anyway. You can still want to win, and crush your enemies, but it's not because there is a prize or anything.

It's for the Glory.