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 Void__Dragon wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lot of delusional people desperately trying to come up with excuses for why orks are nearly consistently placing in top tables.


It's weird, I thought the definition of "consistent" was doing well, MANY TIMES, not "on average not doing very well, but doing extremely well a few times" which is what we are currently seeing with orks.

7 Ork armies in total in tournaments considered by Goonhammer, with 4 doing very well, and 3 doing extremely poorly. Doesn't seem like "consistency".


Your seven army figure is from an article that is almost a month old. Since then Orks have had even more success.

Are they overpowered or top tier? No, probably not. I think they're worse than Marines, Custodes, and Harlequins, and possibly worse than Chaos armies leaning heavily into Nurgle (Death Guard or otherwise).

But this whiny bs about how an army that has placed highly on several occasions while leaning into different units depending on the list since ninth edition started and continue to do so is actually bad is nonsense.

Genestealer Cults are actually awful, and you might notice haven't placed on gak yet. In fact, in the stats you referenced IIRC they weren't even played a single time!


I'm in complete agreement with you as to where orks fall on the general tier-list. Right now, my orks are probably my second-most competitive army.

My disagreement with you is only with the term "consistency". Orks seem to find success when they are able to counter a power armor focused meta where everyone brings either power armor or things to kill power armor, and they show up with a mobility/scoring focused list that is good against low-S high-AP weaponry, and then a few ork lists hit those matchups several times in a row and get extremely good results.

I'd rank orks as the very highest in the "middle tier" of strong factions, right about with Tau Admech and Daemons, not quite as strong as Harlequins Custodes Marines. They're good, but not consistent, as their good-ness is highly matchup dependent as it generally is with orks whose competitive shtick tends to be the ability to bring skew to the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 13:04:15


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

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I'd argue that one aspect why so many different ork builds are doing well is because most missions play into their strengths and some of their weaknesses like low movement speed or short ranges on weapons matter a lot less.

In 8th I had a quote from daedalus in my signature where semper was making fun of him for assuming that someone would actually deploy on the edge of their deployment zone. Now, in 9th this is actually what people are doing. Marines are and other things that would normally be hidden safely 3-4" into their deployment zone are now running towards us to grab objectives and score those precious primary VPs. You no longer need to weather the fire of a gunline for two turns or deep strike massive amounts of boyz so you can get some charges off, you are pretty much guaranteed to be fighting turn two now, with fast units having no issues getting stuck in in their first turn.
The ork player basically plays into the strengths of his army as he has always done but suddenly is vastly more successful with it.

On the other hand, I find many players struggling to adapt to the new missions. People fall back on strategies they have knows for many editions, are trying completely new things to overcome new challenges or simply bring lists that are ill prepared to clear or contest objectives.

While I hope the trend of orks doing well continues, I think there still is time until the dust has settled and everyone has adapted properly to 9th.

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Honestly I find "take all comers" lists to be highly skewed to handle marines. as a primary ork player this is great for me as they often forgo blast weapons or flamers in favor of expensive high str, high ap multidamage weaposn that get wasted on boys. against a true take all comers list its pretty even matches trading punches and as long as I follow the old go all mech or all infantry i can do well. if the oppenent knows they are facing orks and change the list to nothign but flamers and blasts... well i am off the table on bottom of turn 3, might have 1 or 2 mek guns left but the rest is destroyed.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
Honestly I find "take all comers" lists to be highly skewed to handle marines. as a primary ork player this is great for me as they often forgo blast weapons or flamers in favor of expensive high str, high ap multidamage weaposn that get wasted on boys. against a true take all comers list its pretty even matches trading punches and as long as I follow the old go all mech or all infantry i can do well. if the oppenent knows they are facing orks and change the list to nothign but flamers and blasts... well i am off the table on bottom of turn 3, might have 1 or 2 mek guns left but the rest is destroyed.


^This. Skewing your list to not care about the AP stat (by bringing all-KFF orks, or daemons, or harlequins) is EXTREMELY good right now with marines having boatloads of AP and everyone bringing lists to target marines.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
I'd argue that one aspect why so many different ork builds are doing well is because most missions play into their strengths and some of their weaknesses like low movement speed or short ranges on weapons matter a lot less.

In 8th I had a quote from daedalus in my signature where semper was making fun of him for assuming that someone would actually deploy on the edge of their deployment zone. Now, in 9th this is actually what people are doing. Marines are and other things that would normally be hidden safely 3-4" into their deployment zone are now running towards us to grab objectives and score those precious primary VPs. You no longer need to weather the fire of a gunline for two turns or deep strike massive amounts of boyz so you can get some charges off, you are pretty much guaranteed to be fighting turn two now, with fast units having no issues getting stuck in in their first turn.
The ork player basically plays into the strengths of his army as he has always done but suddenly is vastly more successful with it.

On the other hand, I find many players struggling to adapt to the new missions. People fall back on strategies they have knows for many editions, are trying completely new things to overcome new challenges or simply bring lists that are ill prepared to clear or contest objectives.

While I hope the trend of orks doing well continues, I think there still is time until the dust has settled and everyone has adapted properly to 9th.


Exactly, and I miss your signature

We just had a MASSIVE change in how the game is played. No longer are you going to win by just sitting back and gunning everyone else down. And a lot of players are realizing that they weren't using actual skill to win games, but instead were relying on codex power to win them those games for them. A host of tournament players are quickly adapting but the orkz get to sneak into some good standing because most armies are built towards removing 3+ T4-5 multi-wound stat lines. Firing a 40pt plasma gunner at a 20pt+ Primaris makes a lot of sense and will likely result in you making your points back for that unit relatively quickly as well as being able to remove enough bodies to cap an objective. On the flipside of that, shooting that 40pt plasma into a horde of boyz...going to take a long time to get those points back, and even after you unload a full volley, those pesky orkz are still going to have enough ObSec troops to hold the objective...not to mention the likely 5++ and 6+ FNP they will use to negate a third or more of those shots.

As you mentioned and I 100% agree with, we need to let the dust settle and honestly, with the plethora of new toyz Marines are getting, not to mention their toyz which are underused....Marine players can easily build a list that destroys any of the Ork tournament lists, they just don't want to because then they won't do as well vs other Marine lists.

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 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lot of delusional people desperately trying to come up with excuses for why orks are nearly consistently placing in top tables.

There are a lot of reasons why this is happening.
Da jump is a great ability. Literally any psyker would take this ability as auto include out of 2 choices - that makes it one of the best powers in the game. That is part of the reason.
When objectives are scored is another reason. You have to overtake in melee to score the objective...
9th edition to me plays like WW1 trench battles where you reward the side which sacrifices the most troops to take meaningless ground they have no chance of holding. Orks are pretty good at that because #1 they can hold large units back and hold their base objectives and then in 1 turn they can shunt a big unit to the weak flank with a realistic chance of charging too and be put in position to score.


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Xeno, as always your insights on ork strategy are as hilarious as they are incorrect.

Only the two oldest lists out of those five top placing armies actually brought a weird boy, one buggy list and one tide, both placed at the same event.

On top of that, two of the buggy lists actually brought 0 units of troops.

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Da jump is way less relevant on smaller boards where it’s not that difficult to screen out deep strikers, especially large squads like boys.

It’s great to see orks placing with both green tide and mech but I think it’s unlikely Orks are a high or top tier army. Mid tier can still win. Hell, there is a necron player who is crushing with his current “low tier” codex.

Once all of these melta changes come into place I expect buggy lists with show up less.

Edit: If people also decide to gear up to kill hordes more, green tide lists will also disappear. Killing 30-60 boys a round is trivial to a lot of armies. Green tide benefits from the fact that several of the scariest armies (Custodes, Marines, Death Guard, Admech) are all quite resilient.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 15:35:46


 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
Breton wrote:
The Gladiator Tanks and Speeders could have a huge impact but we haven’t seen a data sheet yet.


We have seen a datasheet for one of the Storm Speeders, during the Codex preview - and it led to many complaints from Eldar & Dark Eldar players regarding its speed.
. We’ve seen part of it. No points cost tho. We need to see em all and how it shakes out to know what the meta even is.

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tulun wrote:
Da jump is way less relevant on smaller boards where it’s not that difficult to screen out deep strikers, especially large squads like boys.

It’s great to see orks placing with both green tide and mech but I think it’s unlikely Orks are a high or top tier army. Mid tier can still win. Hell, there is a necron player who is crushing with his current “low tier” codex.

Once all of these melta changes come into place I expect buggy lists with show up less.

Edit: If people also decide to gear up to kill hordes more, green tide lists will also disappear. Killing 30-60 boys a round is trivial to a lot of armies. Green tide benefits from the fact that several of the scariest armies (Custodes, Marines, Death Guard, Admech) are all quite resilient.
Intersting...why take it then? If it's so bad.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
tulun wrote:
Da jump is way less relevant on smaller boards where it’s not that difficult to screen out deep strikers, especially large squads like boys.

It’s great to see orks placing with both green tide and mech but I think it’s unlikely Orks are a high or top tier army. Mid tier can still win. Hell, there is a necron player who is crushing with his current “low tier” codex.

Once all of these melta changes come into place I expect buggy lists with show up less.

Edit: If people also decide to gear up to kill hordes more, green tide lists will also disappear. Killing 30-60 boys a round is trivial to a lot of armies. Green tide benefits from the fact that several of the scariest armies (Custodes, Marines, Death Guard, Admech) are all quite resilient.
Intersting...why take it then? If it's so bad.


I don't generally take weirdboys.

Da Jump is a fine power, but we don't have 5 man strike squads and gak that unload a bunch of firepower. Different armies benefit differently from the same power, you see. I can just infiltrate kommandos if I want small units to show up somewhere for 45 or 55 points on an uncompetitive slot.

HQ slots are preciously few for Orks.

As a caveat -- it's why Blood Axes fallback and shoot or charge is absolutely garbage on Orks, but is insane on other armies.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno, as always your insights on ork strategy are as hilarious as they are incorrect.

Only the two oldest lists out of those five top placing armies actually brought a weird boy, one buggy list and one tide, both placed at the same event.

On top of that, two of the buggy lists actually brought 0 units of troops.
Yikes dude...obviously there is more than one type of ork list winning. That is how this one does it. Buggy list doesn't need a weird boy...why? Becuase not only can 1 of the popular buggies DA JUMP itself. Buggies are fast on their own and can get accross the table on their own. The key to this edition is overloading an objective with melee because you cant shoot things off and get onto the objective afterwards and with the game being a turn shorter...you have to get onto that objective now. Nothing I stated is incorrect.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Xenomancers wrote:
tulun wrote:
Da jump is way less relevant on smaller boards where it’s not that difficult to screen out deep strikers, especially large squads like boys.

It’s great to see orks placing with both green tide and mech but I think it’s unlikely Orks are a high or top tier army. Mid tier can still win. Hell, there is a necron player who is crushing with his current “low tier” codex.

Once all of these melta changes come into place I expect buggy lists with show up less.

Edit: If people also decide to gear up to kill hordes more, green tide lists will also disappear. Killing 30-60 boys a round is trivial to a lot of armies. Green tide benefits from the fact that several of the scariest armies (Custodes, Marines, Death Guard, Admech) are all quite resilient.
Interesting...why take it then? If it's so bad.


honestly da jump imo is most useful late game to send something scary up the board to deal with a problem. if your opponent was silly enough to leave you a place to drop 29 boyz and a nob... great but they are rarely so polite. but if i run up clear most of a tabel quarter but they have an objective there and a unit or 2 nearby ... da jump a group of 3 meganobz there and ... well meganobz start byy holding my own objectives with grots out of line of sight of most thigns but also denying deep strike, then grots move up late game to take the objective and the meganobz go to work. assumign skorchas get the 12 inch flamers too then here comes 3 skorchas in the party to fire at one target before charging with ere we go honestly there is not much in the game that doesn't fear a group of meganobz materializing in thier back lines and charging... other than tau who kill them in overwatch without any problem.

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tulun wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
tulun wrote:
Da jump is way less relevant on smaller boards where it’s not that difficult to screen out deep strikers, especially large squads like boys.

It’s great to see orks placing with both green tide and mech but I think it’s unlikely Orks are a high or top tier army. Mid tier can still win. Hell, there is a necron player who is crushing with his current “low tier” codex.

Once all of these melta changes come into place I expect buggy lists with show up less.

Edit: If people also decide to gear up to kill hordes more, green tide lists will also disappear. Killing 30-60 boys a round is trivial to a lot of armies. Green tide benefits from the fact that several of the scariest armies (Custodes, Marines, Death Guard, Admech) are all quite resilient.
Intersting...why take it then? If it's so bad.


I don't generally take weirdboys.

Da Jump is a fine power, but we don't have 5 man strike squads and gak that unload a bunch of firepower. Different armies benefit differently from the same power, you see. I can just infiltrate kommandos if I want small units to show up somewhere for 45 or 55 points on an uncompetitive slot.

HQ slots are preciously few for Orks.

As a caveat -- it's why Blood Axes fallback and shoot or charge is absolutely garbage on Orks, but is insane on other armies.
Da Jump is for 30 man boys or gazz. Not that commandos are bad...you just are limitied to 10 rather than 30...can't be scar boys. Plus they can't DS turn 1. GK have GOI as well. Also autotake. Could take same stratagey work for GK? Doubtful. With strike squads at 2 wounds...probably. Strikes can DS naturally anyways - still - a GK player would never not take GOI. Teleporting objective secured melee units to the objective you want to take is gonna be pretty effective this edition.

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Few things:

1) Ghaz can't Da Jump. He's not infantry.

2) Kommandos are 5-15. They deep strike for free.

3) Risking Skar Boys on a roughly 50/50 charge chance turn 1 is a great way to lose 250 points of your army for nothing. They aren't evil suns, they don't have any way to get a +1 to charge. Also, most armies screen their stuff out... like, rather easily. Especially when we've lost like 20% of board area.

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 Jidmah wrote:

A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


It doesn't sound like that one guy had trouble killing. Not all his games were perfect and he struggled to connect against the Custodes.

His turn 1 shooting saw the majority of a boyz squad get obliterated (UM Aggressors, ouch). To speed through the next 2 turns, I was able to kill the Invictors, Inceptors, Aggressors and the majority of his characters. An Invictor died to a tankbusta bomb, exploded and shaved off Ghaz’s last 4 wounds
At the end of my turn 2, only the 2 wound Invictor, the 2 Sang Guard and 3 characters remain of the Blood Angels forces. I tabled him turn 3.
At the end of my turn 2 only the Culexus, some rangers, and the Captain hanging out with my Meganobz are left. The game more or less ends after that, just clean up.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 16:45:43


   
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 Void__Dragon wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lot of delusional people desperately trying to come up with excuses for why orks are nearly consistently placing in top tables.


It's weird, I thought the definition of "consistent" was doing well, MANY TIMES, not "on average not doing very well, but doing extremely well a few times" which is what we are currently seeing with orks.

7 Ork armies in total in tournaments considered by Goonhammer, with 4 doing very well, and 3 doing extremely poorly. Doesn't seem like "consistency".


Your seven army figure is from an article that is almost a month old. Since then Orks have had even more success.

Are they overpowered or top tier? No, probably not. I think they're worse than Marines, Custodes, and Harlequins, and possibly worse than Chaos armies leaning heavily into Nurgle (Death Guard or otherwise).

But this whiny bs about how an army that has placed highly on several occasions while leaning into different units depending on the list since ninth edition started and continue to do so is actually bad is nonsense.

Genestealer Cults are actually awful, and you might notice haven't placed on gak yet. In fact, in the stats you referenced IIRC they weren't even played a single time!


Hard to comment on GSC being awful when by your own omission they aren't played within the stats referenced. On paper GSC should be really good in this edition, just a lot of people that played them are butt hurt that aberrants went up in points and can't get a guaranteed 100% charge off when they come in from reinforcements. The ability to drop 100+ bodies in the middle of the table and basically blank out 20% of your opponents shooting during the game are really powerful.

That aside ork lists placing highly have a few builds, but are usually based on being able to grab primaries and secondaries early on hold them for 2-3 turns.

Most of the non marine armies that are placing well have similiar builds.

The marine armies which are placing high tend to also be builds which can go to the middle of the table early and hold things.

In general builds that are highly shooty, aren't placing well- because the tend to play in a manner where the opponent can take objectives early, the shooty lists kills models as it moves up but still doesn't get on objectives, opponent then reclaims objectives, and the shooty list moves up shoots again clearing some of the objectives again but doesn't really get onto them until turn 4-5 at which point they can't score enough points. A lot of marine players are still playing the game like its 8th edition and they can just shoot their opponent off the table to victory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 17:06:49


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lot of delusional people desperately trying to come up with excuses for why orks are nearly consistently placing in top tables.


It's weird, I thought the definition of "consistent" was doing well, MANY TIMES, not "on average not doing very well, but doing extremely well a few times" which is what we are currently seeing with orks.

7 Ork armies in total in tournaments considered by Goonhammer, with 4 doing very well, and 3 doing extremely poorly. Doesn't seem like "consistency".


Your seven army figure is from an article that is almost a month old. Since then Orks have had even more success.

Are they overpowered or top tier? No, probably not. I think they're worse than Marines, Custodes, and Harlequins, and possibly worse than Chaos armies leaning heavily into Nurgle (Death Guard or otherwise).

But this whiny bs about how an army that has placed highly on several occasions while leaning into different units depending on the list since ninth edition started and continue to do so is actually bad is nonsense.

Genestealer Cults are actually awful, and you might notice haven't placed on gak yet. In fact, in the stats you referenced IIRC they weren't even played a single time!


Hard to comment on GSC being awful when by your own omission they aren't played within the stats referenced. On paper GSC should be really good in this edition, just a lot of people that played them are butt hurt that aberrants went up in points and can't get a guaranteed 100% charge off when they come in from reinforcements. The ability to drop 100+ bodies in the middle of the table and basically blank out 20% of your opponents shooting during the game are really powerful.

That aside ork lists placing highly have a few builds, but are usually based on being able to grab primaries and secondaries early on hold them for 2-3 turns.

Most of the non marine armies that are placing well have similiar builds.

The marine armies which are placing high tend to also be builds which can go to the middle of the table early and hold things.

In general builds that are highly shooty, aren't placing well- because the tend to play in a manner where the opponent can take objectives early, the shooty lists kills models as it moves up but still doesn't get on objectives, opponent then reclaims objectives, and the shooty list moves up shoots again clearing some of the objectives again but doesn't really get onto them until turn 4-5 at which point they can't score enough points. A lot of marine players are still playing the game like its 8th edition and they can just shoot their opponent off the table to victory.
Reminds me of the first game I played in 9th were I lost literally 1 intercessor the entire game but lost on objectives. I didn't move out early enough...thing is though - walking into close combat units is antithetical strategy. Good general are going to lose the game because it is too short. Players have figured out pretty quick. shooting units have been made pretty useless.

Cant shoot through walls but you can walk through them...
Cant shoot and claim but you can assault and claim...
Winning war of attrition is basically meaningless (actual generalship not rewarded)...Only thing that matters is board control.

This version of the game really reminds me of shadespire. Which while fun I always had the complaint the game is over to quick. The game going strategy that always worked for my buddy was to ignore killing entirely and just score his objective cards. I went at the game trying to kill his units (granted I stacked the deck with those objectives) and basically always lost. Ofc that game is also about who has the most OP cards in their deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


It doesn't sound like that one guy had trouble killing. Not all his games were perfect and he struggled to connect against the Custodes.

His turn 1 shooting saw the majority of a boyz squad get obliterated (UM Aggressors, ouch). To speed through the next 2 turns, I was able to kill the Invictors, Inceptors, Aggressors and the majority of his characters. An Invictor died to a tankbusta bomb, exploded and shaved off Ghaz’s last 4 wounds
At the end of my turn 2, only the 2 wound Invictor, the 2 Sang Guard and 3 characters remain of the Blood Angels forces. I tabled him turn 3.
At the end of my turn 2 only the Culexus, some rangers, and the Captain hanging out with my Meganobz are left. The game more or less ends after that, just clean up.


Boys are gonna kill pretty much anything they come in contact with that doesn't have a 2+ save. Even those can be overwhelmed with like...120 attacks at str 5. Killing power is there. You just have to get it into melee. If opponent has to come to the middle of the table that is incredibly easy and if there is a giant wall in the middle of the table...just forget about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 17:46:13


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Yikes dude...obviously there is more than one type of ork list winning. That is how this one does it. Buggy list doesn't need a weird boy...why? Becuase not only can 1 of the popular buggies DA JUMP itself. Buggies are fast on their own and can get accross the table on their own. The key to this edition is overloading an objective with melee because you cant shoot things off and get onto the objective afterwards and with the game being a turn shorter...you have to get onto that objective now. Nothing I stated is incorrect.


The hilarious part is that you could just look at the lists which all have been linked in this thread instead of doubling down on your baseless opinion and producing even more incorrect nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


It doesn't sound like that one guy had trouble killing. Not all his games were perfect and he struggled to connect against the Custodes.

His turn 1 shooting saw the majority of a boyz squad get obliterated (UM Aggressors, ouch). To speed through the next 2 turns, I was able to kill the Invictors, Inceptors, Aggressors and the majority of his characters. An Invictor died to a tankbusta bomb, exploded and shaved off Ghaz’s last 4 wounds
At the end of my turn 2, only the 2 wound Invictor, the 2 Sang Guard and 3 characters remain of the Blood Angels forces. I tabled him turn 3.
At the end of my turn 2 only the Culexus, some rangers, and the Captain hanging out with my Meganobz are left. The game more or less ends after that, just clean up.




True, he was running all goff scarboyz though, which are on a completely different level than ES or deff skulls boyz we were seeing so far and they can get +1A and re-rolls from Thrakka to hit even harder.
That said, from a purely logistic point of view, it's unlikely that more than two mobs were fighting at a time, so the tedious issue of moving over a hundred models up to four times per turn (move, charge, pile-in, consolidate) remains. The army is simply hell to play and he has my highest respects for going through that all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are gonna kill pretty much anything they come in contact with that doesn't have a 2+ save. Even those can be overwhelmed with like...120 attacks at str 5. Killing power is there. You just have to get it into melee. If opponent has to come to the middle of the table that is incredibly easy and if there is a giant wall in the middle of the table...just forget about it.

Boyz don't get to make 120 attacks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/17 18:27:23


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Its simple math. boys have 2 attacks 3 with choppas and 4 with gaz. 30x4 = 120. str 5 if they are scar boys. They could also get +1 attack from banner as well. True their is a nob in there - but that is just more attacks - I am generalizing.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Its simple math. boys have 2 attacks 3 with choppas and 4 with gaz. 30x4 = 120. str 5 if they are scar boys. They could also get +1 attack from banner as well. True their is a nob in there - but that is just more attacks - I am generalizing.


2 base, +1 for choppa, +1 for 20+ Models, +1 for ghaz = 5 attacks each, 150 attacks at Str 5 ONLY if they paid for the CP upgrade. Even then you will never get more than 20ish into combat, so 100 attacks at most, You could buff them with Warpath from a weirdboy for another 20 attacks. Regardless, its not very useful and at the end of the day, even if you got the most amazing buffs, 180 attacks. Against T5 3 wound Primaris it works out to almost 7 dead Primaris Marines. All for the low low cost of 240pts for the boyz, 75pts for a weirdboy and another 300pts for Ghaz.

So over 600pts of boyz and buffs is able to kill slightly less than 7 Primaris marines...amazing.


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On the flip side, if I took 600pts worth of Smasha gunz I would get 30 shots (36 with dakka) for 18 hits wounding on 5+ (2D6) = 15 wounds at -4AP, inflicting D6 dmg each = 15 Dead Primaris realistically with overkill and under kill, probably 10. But still a feth load better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 19:30:14


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 Xenomancers wrote:
Its simple math. boys have 2 attacks 3 with choppas and 4 with gaz. 30x4 = 120. str 5 if they are scar boys. They could also get +1 attack from banner as well. True their is a nob in there - but that is just more attacks - I am generalizing.


Uh-huh. That's a beautiful theory from someone who has never played boyz even a once, but there are rules which limit who can make attacks and there are new coherency rules which limit where models can go. You usually have no more than 10-12 boyz making attacks, especially when arriving from deep strike as you keep advertising.
I think the highest number of attacking models in a unit I had so far in 9th was 18, and that was a mob fully surrounding a strung out unit of 5 terminators, after a 10" charge from 4" away.

Oh, and the banners don't give extra attacks, just to add to the list of things you are wrong about.

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So we all understand this thread is a joke right? The OP is trying to define the performance of an entire codex based on one tournament result! Like, can I find one tournament where my army did badly and declare that the codex sucks?


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 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Its simple math. boys have 2 attacks 3 with choppas and 4 with gaz. 30x4 = 120. str 5 if they are scar boys. They could also get +1 attack from banner as well. True their is a nob in there - but that is just more attacks - I am generalizing.


Uh-huh. That's a beautiful theory from someone who has never played boyz even a once, but there are rules which limit who can make attacks and there are new coherency rules which limit where models can go. You usually have no more than 10-12 boyz making attacks, especially when arriving from deep strike as you keep advertising.
I think the highest number of attacking models in a unit I had so far in 9th was 18, and that was a mob fully surrounding a strung out unit of 5 terminators, after a 10" charge from 4" away.

Oh, and the banners don't give extra attacks, just to add to the list of things you are wrong about.
I have told the story before; Xeno once declared that plants breathe in through their roots and out through their leaves, and boldly corrected those who attempted to explain otherwise. Just to warn you about the level of discussion you are wading into.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 04:52:35


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 Jidmah wrote:
When green tides become the only competitive build for orks, everyone loses. It's usually a sign of a highly unhealthy meta where infantry skew manages to eek out wins because everyone is gearing towards another big bad.

Most ork players don't enjoy playing green tide lists, especially not at tournaments. Moving and transporting that amount of models is cumbersome, especially when you move, charge and pile-in 30 models to kill one and a half primaris marines.
A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


That is true for any type of skew that suddendly places top, the same can be said when mono knights sit in the top bracket aswell, allbeit it is a less time consuming army.




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But really, what Jidmah said is true, boyz typically fight with less than 15 models, even if their 30 man mob never suffered a single wound before.

It's 40-60 attacks typically for a full mob, definitely not 120 or 150.

Yeah close combat isn't shooting where the entire unit can make all its attacks.

And people that are used to play armies with 3-10 man squads really need to try something that relies on 20-30 man melee oriented mobs instead of theoryhammering without any real experience.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
When green tides become the only competitive build for orks, everyone loses. It's usually a sign of a highly unhealthy meta where infantry skew manages to eek out wins because everyone is gearing towards another big bad.

Most ork players don't enjoy playing green tide lists, especially not at tournaments. Moving and transporting that amount of models is cumbersome, especially when you move, charge and pile-in 30 models to kill one and a half primaris marines.
A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


That is true for any type of skew that suddendly places top, the same can be said when mono knights sit in the top bracket aswell, allbeit it is a less time consuming army.


Nah, it's the other way around. The green tide isn't actually all that powerful and hasn't ever been. It's just when the meta tilts heavily in one direction, like it did with space marines 2.0 or the early knight meta, people start focusing heavily on beating those kinds of lists at which point they lack the tools to beat the tide. For example when nurgle hordes, poxwalker farms and similar armies were all the rage, the green tide actually did rather poorly, and the same was the case when gulliman castles or do-everything-twice Ynnari were on an about, because those had not issues clearing out large amounts of infantry models.

It's also important to note that this currently does not seem to be the problem. The ork lists are pretty varied, even the tide and buggy lists among themselves look vastly different.

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Orks have a 67% win-rate in 9th tournament stats recorded on 40kstats, that's close to Salamanders, the best SM chapter (it might be as low as 59% I'm not sure how the numbers are different between faction vs faction and subfaction results). Goffs have an 80% win-rate, which is kind of absurd, but not necessarily representative and the breadth of lists that have topped for Orks makes it hard to pinpoint exactly what does and does not need a nerf and a buff.

My gut feeling is that Gretchin need a buff, but if they get any more top placings then that won't be something I can justify any longer, my gut still says that it was just bad list builders playing their army well that led Gretchin to feature in top 4s. The Burna Bommer Strat seems an obvious target for a nerf, but Burna Bommers don't actually feature in a majority of top Orks lists. Not even Boyz, Warbosses or Thraka consistently show up, although I think Thraka might need to go up by 10 pts, surprising given how small of a buff he got from 8th -> 9th, maybe that guy who said Thraka was the most OP unit in 8th because he can survive a titan shooting at him was right

The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested. But it features in 100% of top lists and probably around 90% of lists overall and it is obviously crazy. That alone will probably impact Ork win-rates, other than that I think some units might need tiny nerfs of 5ish % pts increase in order to put Orks in a healthier place. I am certainly very surprised with how well Ork players have handled the new edition, kudos to the players with the cajones to ignore the nay-sayers, especially the ones that brought 5 pt Gretchin and got top 4.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 08:57:09


 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
When green tides become the only competitive build for orks, everyone loses. It's usually a sign of a highly unhealthy meta where infantry skew manages to eek out wins because everyone is gearing towards another big bad.

Most ork players don't enjoy playing green tide lists, especially not at tournaments. Moving and transporting that amount of models is cumbersome, especially when you move, charge and pile-in 30 models to kill one and a half primaris marines.
A game using the green tide mostly revolves around removing models and standing in the right places while doing little to no damage to your opponent.


That is true for any type of skew that suddendly places top, the same can be said when mono knights sit in the top bracket aswell, allbeit it is a less time consuming army.


Nah, it's the other way around. The green tide isn't actually all that powerful and hasn't ever been. It's just when the meta tilts heavily in one direction, like it did with space marines 2.0 or the early knight meta, people start focusing heavily on beating those kinds of lists at which point they lack the tools to beat the tide. For example when nurgle hordes, poxwalker farms and similar armies were all the rage, the green tide actually did rather poorly, and the same was the case when gulliman castles or do-everything-twice Ynnari were on an about, because those had not issues clearing out large amounts of infantry models.

It's also important to note that this currently does not seem to be the problem. The ork lists are pretty varied, even the tide and buggy lists among themselves look vastly different.

I agree, but i mean in general the concept of any Skew profiting off the "big bad" meta and placing top, is an issue, regarldess how the skew looks or plays.,

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 vict0988 wrote:


The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested.


Warboss with killa klaw is on par with SM captain with TH, except the latter can also take jump packs to be mobile, deepstrike and assault flyers. I really don't see anything overpowered here, with the melee oriented commander getting a damage 3 close combat weapon which is allowed on one model only; if anything it's the standard power klaw and killsaw that should be buffed to be at least flat 3 damage now that thunder hammers are flat 4, and other relics to be buffed. Killa Klaw is litterally the only relic worth taking in the entire codex, again we're not SM that have tons of them.
   
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 Blackie wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:


The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested.


Warboss with killa klaw is on par with SM captain with TH, except the latter can also take jump packs to be mobile, deepstrike and assault flyers. I really don't see anything overpowered here, with the melee oriented commander getting a damage 3 close combat weapon which is allowed on one model only; if anything it's the standard power klaw and killsaw that should be buffed to be at least flat 3 damage now that thunder hammers are flat 4, and other relics to be buffed. Killa Klaw is litterally the only relic worth taking in the entire codex, again we're not SM that have tons of them.

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 09:03:49


 
   
 
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