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Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.


No, TH costs 15, 40 only on characters. It is possible to spam multiple damage 4 melee weapons for SM, killa klaw is only a single relic and only works on a 5'' M dude. Any ork player will be happy to get rid of the killa klaw if the army gets a thunder hammer equivalent for 15/40 points just like SM. Spamming powerful melee weapons across multiple units is way more effective than bringing a single footslogging melee specialist character and it was a thing for any ork army pre-8th edition.

And again, for the 100th time, we're not SM so give us 10ish good relics and we would be cool about the eventual nerf of the killa klaw.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 Blackie wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.


No, TH costs 15, 40 only on characters. It is possible to spam multiple damage 4 melee weapons for SM, killa klaw is only a single relic and only works on a 5'' M dude. Any ork player will be happy to get rid of the killa klaw if the army gets a thunder hammer equivalent for 15/40 points just like SM. Spamming powerful melee weapons across multiple units is way more effective than bringing a single footslogging melee specialist character and it was a thing for any ork army pre-8th edition.

And again, for the 100th time, we're not SM so give us 10ish good relics and we would be cool about the eventual nerf of the killa klaw.

Do you mean 10 relics like Drake Smiter? The thunder hammer relic that adds less than 1 to damage on average and -1 AP but doesn't add +1 to hit and doesn't let you re-roll wounds? Orks have a high win-rate the only thing that appears in every Ork list is Da Killa Klaw, I don't give a crap if they have any good relics, overpowered things need to be nerfed. Da Lucky Stick is good, Da Fixer Upperz, Buzzbomb and Dead Shiny Shoota are decent, remember relics are supposed to be worth no more than 2CP at the absolute most and Da Killa Klaw is easily worth that much. The old arguement for needing the Da Killa Klaw was that it was a needed crutch because Ork win rates were low and you didn't want to lose your crutch before knowing you would get a replacement, now Orks don't need a crutch, they have a high win-rate, it's time to walk without your crutch. I don't care if you feel like power klaws should be 3 damage and 20 pts, they're D3 damage and 10 pts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 09:38:09


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 vict0988 wrote:
Orks have a 67% win-rate in 9th tournament stats recorded on 40kstats, that's close to Salamanders, the best SM chapter (it might be as low as 59% I'm not sure how the numbers are different between faction vs faction and subfaction results). Goffs have an 80% win-rate, which is kind of absurd, but not necessarily representative and the breadth of lists that have topped for Orks makes it hard to pinpoint exactly what does and does not need a nerf and a buff.

I'd like to point out that 40k stats has all of 8 events on record and 9 ork lists. These numbers are all but meaningless.

My gut feeling is that Gretchin need a buff, but if they get any more top placings then that won't be something I can justify any longer, my gut still says that it was just bad list builders playing their army well that led Gretchin to feature in top 4s. The Burna Bommer Strat seems an obvious target for a nerf, but Burna Bommers don't actually feature in a majority of top Orks lists. Not even Boyz, Warbosses or Thraka consistently show up, although I think Thraka might need to go up by 10 pts, surprising given how small of a buff he got from 8th -> 9th, maybe that guy who said Thraka was the most OP unit in 8th because he can survive a titan shooting at him was right

Relevant numbers:
2 armies out of 5 brought gretchin. One as tax for a battalion, one as tax for a patrol to get a 4th HQ.
1 armies out of 5 brought Burna bommers
3 armies out of 5 brought Thrakka

So what exactly are you basing these "obvious" problems on? I hope not on the gak that youtubers who have no clue about orks keep spewing out into the world. Almost all players doing well with orks right now are ones who also had top 4 placements during 8th, so it's not like a sudden power spike is launching them to levels where they shouldn't be.

The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested. But it features in 100% of top lists and probably around 90% of lists overall and it is obviously crazy.

What other relics do you suggest orks should take? What other HQ should we bring? Ever thought about that? The main reason why killa klaw bosses show up because there are few alternatives for both HQ and relic choices. The killa klaw merely put a warboss on the same level as captains and daemon princes, and it's bad enough that we need a relic and a stratagem to make them useful at all.
I'd also like to point out that damning all criticism of your interpretation of highly unreliable numbers as "whine and scream" in advance doesn't shine a good light on you or your argument.

That alone will probably impact Ork win-rates, other than that I think some units might need tiny nerfs of 5ish % pts increase in order to put Orks in a healthier place. I am certainly very surprised with how well Ork players have handled the new edition, kudos to the players with the cajones to ignore the nay-sayers, especially the ones that brought 5 pt Gretchin and got top 4.

As above, almost all of them have already done well with orks and never left them. People trying to jump onto the ork bandwagon tend to fail horribly with them - see Nick Nanavati. His best placement with them was 10th place despite ork veterans doing well at the same time and him immediately going back to topping tournaments after dropping them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
Orks have a high win-rate the only thing that appears in every Ork list is Da Killa Klaw, I don't give a crap if they have any good relics, overpowered things need to be nerfed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
You really need to chill here. If you have a reason to believe that a killa klaw warboss is OP, we can discuss that, but "all orks are bringing the only viable relic in the entire book" is hardly it.

Da Lucky Stick is good

Not, it's a terrible relic in a clan that doesn't need it. It provides +1 hit aura to CHARACTERs only and is clan-locked to GOFF. All characters that could take it either have no business being in combat or gain no benefit from it like Thrakka himself or the banner nob.

Da Fixer Upperz

Actually a decent one, but only if you are bringing vehicles in the first place and it only makes sense on the wartrike. Also clan-locked.

Buzzbomb

Clan-locked into an otherwise completely worthless clan.

Dead Shiny Shoota are decent

Besides only being usable by a warboss and the massively overcosted banner nob, do you really think 2 S4 hits on average at 18" is decent? Would you pay 2 CP to shoot with three intercessors?

I don't care if you feel like power klaws should be 3 damage and 20 pts, they're D3 damage and 10 pts.

Well, if you don't care, why are you raging about it?
I suggest taking a cold shower and getting some sleep.

Afterwards, how about bringing some arguments besides "I don't care".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:19:20


 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 Jidmah wrote:
Relevant numbers:
2 armies out of 5 brought gretchin. One as tax for a battalion, one as tax for a patrol to get a 4th HQ.
1 armies out of 5 brought Burna bommers
3 armies out of 5 brought Thrakka

So what exactly are you basing these "obvious" problems on? I hope not on the gak that youtubers who have no clue about orks keep spewing out into the world. Almost all players doing well with orks right now are ones who also had top 4 placements during 8th, so it's not like a sudden power spike is launching them to levels where they shouldn't be.

Didn't I say that the solutions weren't obvious? I said that the Burna Bommer Strat seemed obvious until you look at how little it featured in tournament topping lists, you posting relevant numbers I already read makes no sense. Do you think Orks should have a win rate over 60%? That's just how much better the players are than the rest of the field? How about Necron players, are they just bad? How many lists with a 60% win rate using Da Killa Klaw do we need before you agree that it should be nerfed?

I predicted what I see. Nothing will convince Ork players that Da KIlla Klaw needs a nerf, it's your holiest relic, the object of your worship. Someone brought it on a MA Big Mek, ever heard of someone bringing a relic weapon on anything but their most bad-ass character? Imagine Astra Militarum putting a relic sword on a Platoon Commander because they just needed to include that relic but didn't feel like taking a Company Commander. I care because I think 40k should be as fair as the writers can make it, Da Killa Klaw is obviously unfair compared to the majority of relics in the game, Orks are doing well in tournaments and Da Killa Klaw is the only obvious way to bring down Orks in a fair manner. I think you need to stop worshipping Da Killa Klaw and take a bubble bath.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:24:22


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 vict0988 wrote:
Do you think Orks should have a win rate over 60%? That's just how much better the players are than the rest of the field? How about Necron players, are they just bad?

No I think they shouldn't. But I know that 8 events are not enough to draw conclusions. Might as well ask 8x4 people on the street who they are going to vote for and draw conclusions from that.
How many lists with a 60% win rate using Da Killa Klaw do we need before you agree that it should be nerfed?

Actually, I think that even deleting the killa klaw would have zero impact on the performance of these lists. Warbosses would simply disappear and people would bring something else instead.
I predicted what I see. Nothing will convince Ork players that Da KIlla Klaw needs a nerf, it's your holiest relic, the object of your worship.

You are exclusively using ad hominem attacks to prove your point. So In a manner, you are correct. You have brought absolutely nothing to the discussion and this nothing you brought does, in fact, not convince me.
Someone brought it on a MA Big Mek, ever heard of someone bringing a relic weapon on anything but their most bad-ass character? Imagine Astra Militarum putting a relic sword on a Platoon Commander because they just needed to include that relic but didn't feel like taking a Company Commander.

You do realize that this MA Big Mek was upgraded into a MA warboss because their most bad-ass character was Thrakka who can't take relics, right?
Do you know what's more badass than a MA big mek with da cleverest boss in a list that has Thrakka in it?
Nothing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:36:40


 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 vict0988 wrote:

Do you mean 10 relics like Drake Smiter? The thunder hammer relic that adds less than 1 to damage on average and -1 AP but doesn't add +1 to hit and doesn't let you re-roll wounds? Orks have a high win-rate the only thing that appears in every Ork list is Da Killa Klaw, I don't give a crap if they have any good relics, overpowered things need to be nerfed. Da Lucky Stick is good, Da Fixer Upperz, Buzzbomb and Dead Shiny Shoota are decent, remember relics are supposed to be worth no more than 2CP at the absolute most and Da Killa Klaw is easily worth that much. The old arguement for needing the Da Killa Klaw was that it was a needed crutch because Ork win rates were low and you didn't want to lose your crutch before knowing you would get a replacement, now Orks don't need a crutch, they have a high win-rate, it's time to walk without your crutch. I don't care if you feel like power klaws should be 3 damage and 20 pts, they're D3 damage and 10 pts.


Aaaaah the old argument "They're have a high winning rate in tournaments, nerf them!!!". Orks aren't top tier, regardless of what data you may have. Tournament lists don't always reflect the real state of 40k.

Not to mention that the killa klaw has actually little impact on these tournament lists, they placed for other reasons. One is that many players still need to adapt their lists to 9th edition, and get familiar with the new combos, while orks didn't need to change much from previous builds.

And by your logic I don't care if you feel like the Killa Klaw is overpowered, it's +1 dmg and re-rolling wounds.

Let's not even start with the "overpowered things need to be nerfed" or half the SM codex will suddenly disappear


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
Da Killa Klaw is obviously unfair compared to the majority of relics in the game


And most of ork weapons, both shooting and melee oriented, are obviously unfair (in the sense that they're flat out inferior) compared to the majority of their equivalent weapons in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:43:39


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.


I get your point, but you pay CP for what a relic does - not points. We can't assume all Character PKs will be DKK and charge 40 points for it. The base PK is nowhere near a TH.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.


I get your point, but you pay CP for what a relic does - not points. We can't assume all Character PKs will be DKK and charge 40 points for it. The base PK is nowhere near a TH.

My point is that the buff DKK provides should not be vastly larger than its cost and since relics have no balance levers other than rules that is what has to be changed. We cannot increase the pts or CP cost of the relic so the magnitude or number of buffs needs to shrink.
 Blackie wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

Do you mean 10 relics like Drake Smiter? The thunder hammer relic that adds less than 1 to damage on average and -1 AP but doesn't add +1 to hit and doesn't let you re-roll wounds? Orks have a high win-rate the only thing that appears in every Ork list is Da Killa Klaw, I don't give a crap if they have any good relics, overpowered things need to be nerfed. Da Lucky Stick is good, Da Fixer Upperz, Buzzbomb and Dead Shiny Shoota are decent, remember relics are supposed to be worth no more than 2CP at the absolute most and Da Killa Klaw is easily worth that much. The old arguement for needing the Da Killa Klaw was that it was a needed crutch because Ork win rates were low and you didn't want to lose your crutch before knowing you would get a replacement, now Orks don't need a crutch, they have a high win-rate, it's time to walk without your crutch. I don't care if you feel like power klaws should be 3 damage and 20 pts, they're D3 damage and 10 pts.


Aaaaah the old argument "They're have a high winning rate in tournaments, nerf them!!!". Orks aren't top tier, regardless of what data you may have. Tournament lists don't always reflect the real state of 40k.

Who gets to determine when Orks are or are not top tier? The Ork players of Dakka? I think I read someone saying that we cannot trust the more or less pro 40k players say in their podcasts, although I haven't heard anyone of them saying Orks were OP.

And by your logic I don't care if you feel like the Killa Klaw is overpowered, it's +1 dmg and re-rolling wounds.

What I don't care about is what you feel is cool or fluffy, what matters is whether it is OP. You also forgot the +1 to hit modifier DKK provides when compared to similar pieces of wargear. I know you like it when your Warboss deals tonnes of damage and you feel that is how the world should be for every Warboss and not just one with DKK, but all of that doesn't change the facts of DKK being overrepresented in competitive lists and it providing an overly large amount of buffs when compared to other relics.

Let's not even start with the "overpowered things need to be nerfed" or half the SM codex will suddenly disappear

They wouldn't disappear, they'd just cost more pts. Anyone who argued the Ironstone did not need a nerf must have been missing more than half their brain, now it's Orks' turn because their win rate is high enough to justify a nerf, DKK needs a nerf and is the only thing we see in every top Ork list. There are also still some SM relics and WL traits that need nerfs, but the Seal of Oath UM successor relic is for a legion that doesn't currently need a nerf, when the legion does need a nerf I will advocate for Seal of Oath to get nerfed. When Necrons start doing better with infantry based lists you can sign me up for the hate letter for Veil of Darkness, yes it feels good to use Veil of Darkness, but that should not put it into a protected class and if Veil of Darkness is the only constant factor in all top-performing and overperforming Necron lists then it will need to be nerfed.

 vict0988 wrote:
Da Killa Klaw is obviously unfair compared to the majority of relics in the game


And most of ork weapons, both shooting and melee oriented, are obviously unfair (in the sense that they're flat out inferior) compared to the majority of their equivalent weapons in the game.

How are big choppas inferior to power mauls? How are power klaws inferior to warscythes or power fists? Do you really want to pay 40 pts for a thunder hammer on your Warboss? But all of this is about how you want your Orks to krump the meanies and has nothing to do with whether it's balanced for DKK to have the rules it currently does. Maybe power klaws should be more like thunder hammers than power fists, but that shouldn't come for free.
 Jidmah wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Do you think Orks should have a win rate over 60%? That's just how much better the players are than the rest of the field? How about Necron players, are they just bad?

No I think they shouldn't. But I know that 8 events are not enough to draw conclusions. Might as well ask 8x4 people on the street who they are going to vote for and draw conclusions from that.

Do you have a number in mind? I totally agree that it could just be an early lucky streak, so is it 15 or 25 lists before we are sure that Orks need a nerf? Would me looking into the data for smaller tournaments be enough to convince you or are we sticking with GTs? I won't go looking into smaller tournament data if you don't care. Do you want to discuss how many top 4 GT placings is needed before we can agree that Orks need to be nerfed? Is it 6 or 10? I think 4/19 lists placing top 4 in 30+ person events already says quite a bit, maybe my math is off and it's actually quite likely to be due to chance, but my gut feeling is that it isn't.
How many lists with a 60% win rate using Da Killa Klaw do we need before you agree that it should be nerfed?

Actually, I think that even deleting the killa klaw would have zero impact on the performance of these lists. Warbosses would simply disappear and people would bring something else instead.

Did you not say DKK was the only good Ork relic? If it's the only good one then people taking another relic would make their list worse, no? Or is that power klaw characters are so overpriced that even with a free relic they don't compare to your other more efficient choices?
I predicted what I see. Nothing will convince Ork players that Da KIlla Klaw needs a nerf, it's your holiest relic, the object of your worship.

You are exclusively using ad hominem attacks to prove your point. So In a manner, you are correct. You have brought absolutely nothing to the discussion and this nothing you brought does, in fact, not convince me.

Exclusively, this word does not mean what you think it does. I provided several reasons for why DKK should be nerfed, prevalence in current and previous metas and comparison with other relics such as Salamander's Drakesmiter. Your argument for why Orks should not be nerfed is "wait and see", which is fair enough, your argument for not nerfing DKK is as far as I can see "Orks should krump good, DKK krump good, DKK = ".
Someone brought it on a MA Big Mek, ever heard of someone bringing a relic weapon on anything but their most bad-ass character? Imagine Astra Militarum putting a relic sword on a Platoon Commander because they just needed to include that relic but didn't feel like taking a Company Commander.

You do realize that this MA Big Mek was upgraded into a MA warboss because their most bad-ass character was Thrakka who can't take relics, right?
Do you know what's more badass than a MA big mek with da cleverest boss in a list that has Thrakka in it?

That was my whole point, if it is worth bringing on a MA Big Mek it's clearly leaps and bounds too OP. No Necrons player would ever put weapon relic on a Lord because they are not proper fighting characters and Necrons do have a couple of weapon relics worth 1 CP, just not on a Lord, in the same manner I would argue that other relics should be more optimal than DKK when you don't have anything better than a MA Big Mek to put it on.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 vict0988 wrote:


Orks have a 67% win-rate in 9th tournament stats recorded on 40kstats, that's close to Salamanders, the best SM chapter (it might be as low as 59% I'm not sure how the numbers are different between faction vs faction and subfaction results). Goffs have an 80% win-rate, which is kind of absurd, but not necessarily representative and the breadth of lists that have topped for Orks makes it hard to pinpoint exactly what does and does not need a nerf and a buff.


Ah, well, we better change the entire meta because have 9 lists used so far in 9th edition and are played by people competent enough to place well. And those Goffs with their 80% win rate with a whole...2 lists used. We just started 9th editions tournament play due to covid and the entire Ork faction has 9 lists recorded in 40k stats and you are going to try and use that as justification for nerfs for an entire faction? Jumping the gun a bit aren't we? Maybe let SM players realize they still need to take anti-infantry weapons to a tournament before trying to sabotage an entire faction.

 vict0988 wrote:
My gut feeling is that Gretchin need a buff, but if they get any more top placings then that won't be something I can justify any longer, my gut still says that it was just bad list builders playing their army well that led Gretchin to feature in top 4s. The Burna Bommer Strat seems an obvious target for a nerf, but Burna Bommers don't actually feature in a majority of top Orks lists. Not even Boyz, Warbosses or Thraka consistently show up, although I think Thraka might need to go up by 10 pts, surprising given how small of a buff he got from 8th -> 9th, maybe that guy who said Thraka was the most OP unit in 8th because he can survive a titan shooting at him was right


Your gut feeling is that T2, S2, 6+ save model that can only equip a S3 pistol needs a buff to be worth 5pts? Yes, Grots indeed need some kind of major buff to make their 66% point increase seem less ridiculous. As far as placing in top 4s with grotz...doesn't take much to realize they are just the cheapest troop tax. In 8th that is almost exclusively why they were taken, that and Grot shielding a specific unit or two. The Burna Bommer is exactly where it should be, without that 1 strategy nobody brings the stupid thing because its inefficient and useless. Its guns/bombs are just a nice addition to it being a ork version of Kamikaze. As far as Thraka needed a price raise...no. Ghaz is ridiculously easy to kill if you actually have tools in your kit beyond "haha i shooty everything". My Campaign ork army was able to 1 shot ghaz so many times that my opponents stopped taking him.

 vict0988 wrote:
The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested. But it features in 100% of top lists and probably around 90% of lists overall and it is obviously crazy. That alone will probably impact Ork win-rates, other than that I think some units might need tiny nerfs of 5ish % pts increase in order to put Orks in a healthier place. I am certainly very surprised with how well Ork players have handled the new edition, kudos to the players with the cajones to ignore the nay-sayers, especially the ones that brought 5 pt Gretchin and got top 4.


The only competitive Relic we have which is almost the same as a standard SM TH needs to be nerfed? Well, we used to have the Relic SSAG but SM players got so incredibly mad at it that GW hit it with the ban hammer for all intents and purposes. Literally caused the Big Mek w/SAG to become unplayable with how much of a price increase it got. The reason the Killa Klaw is taken is because its our only choice worth taking, and why not upgrade your melee beat stick character with some extra gubbinz? Plus, I would really like to know what Ork units need 5% pts increases.

And finally, the nay sayers were correct, 5pt grots are useless, they are just the cheapest troop tax you can take unless you would rather just drop CP on a detachment so you don't have to take troops.

 vict0988 wrote:
Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.


The difference between a Killa Klaw and the regular PK is that the PK has -1 to hit the relic does not, The Relic also allows reroll failed wounds (almost exactly the same as a reroll 1s because warboss is S12 with a klaw) and it has a flat 3 dmg as opposed to D3 for a klaw. I agree the TH is over priced on the SM HQs, but maybe that is the price you pay for not having to take a relic slot to equip what is fundamentally the same weapon as an Ork relic. Also, its 10pts not 9

   
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Im sorry we are comparing a single relic per army that takes up a relic slot to a spammable option that squad sgts can take and saying the relic option is OP?

I hope its more powerful than a thunderhammer, because if it's not then thunderhammers need to become 40/80pts. Maybe +/-10 pts depending on how expensive you think 1 CP is worth in points.

Not that it matters to you, but the entire ork faction has only a couple of relic weapons. Both the big mek and Warboss model which most people have comes with a powerklaw, so there is only 1 relic melee option for that...it is the killa klaw. If all the Space marine factions had 3 relic weapons total for all of them, and all the space marine captain models had a sword you would see that relic sword taken more than the relic power axe that is on a metal model that isnt for sell anymore.

The nonsensical idea that a relic shouldn't be OP compared to a non relic item from a different faction that can take many of them in a single army aside...

I think 9th favors the main play styles orks were using. Most ork lists had moved away from a shooty build to a hold the middle build back when mobbing up bad moon lootas was errata-ed out of the game. 9th heavyily favors army builds that take the middle of the table. Overall I think this has given orks a strong initial win rate versus armies that in 8th favored builds that set back most of the game and shot things, then later maybe moved up. When those factions begin to make more lists that are centered around the 24-36" range and taking the middle of the table we may see a different tournament outcome.

I think the real loss for orks in 9th is gretchin, and CP. Looking at various factions in 8th it seems as if many horde factions have more expensive stratagems, which were mostly powered by taking 3x battalions so you start with many CPs. Horde factions cannot do that anymore, so they have lower CP but tend to have stratagems which cost more CP for similiar effect stratagems in non horde factions. This overall is a nerf to horde factions.

The loss of gretchin is also rough, I say loss because their increase in points makes them non viable to take in large quantities. Unfortunately they are still tied to making various other units viable (lootas, Flash Gitz, shooty units), which makes that a nerf not just to gretchin but to other units as well. I hope in 9th gretchin get revisited and as MODELS at least, and the models basically become a 2W 2A unit with the rest of the stats the same and there are 2 gretchin models on a 32mm base and they are 5-6ppm with grot shields doing 1 unpreventable wound to a gretchin unit. Gretchin would again be worth taking and would make ork shooting units more viable. Yes I realize there is more terrain now, but if your shooting unit can see through the terrain to shoot it can be shot back at in most cases- and -1 to hit and +1 save ona T4 6+ model isn't viable defense for their points cost.



This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 16:53:14


 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:


I predicted what I see. Nothing will convince Ork players that Da KIlla Klaw needs a nerf, it's your holiest relic, the object of your worship. Someone brought it on a MA Big Mek, ever heard of someone bringing a relic weapon on anything but their most bad-ass character? Imagine Astra Militarum putting a relic sword on a Platoon Commander because they just needed to include that relic but didn't feel like taking a Company Commander. I care because I think 40k should be as fair as the writers can make it, Da Killa Klaw is obviously unfair compared to the majority of relics in the game, Orks are doing well in tournaments and Da Killa Klaw is the only obvious way to bring down Orks in a fair manner. I think you need to stop worshipping Da Killa Klaw and take a bubble bath.


You could make DKK just do flat 3 damage without the reroll wounds and ork players would still take it. The relic is the only way to make warbosses not bounce off whatever they are trying to fight. If it was removed all warbosses would just take 'Eadwoppa's instead since it would be better than a d3 damage powerklaw.

All of the other relics in the ork codex are situational at best or flat out bad, it really isn't a mystery why DKK is taken in virtually every list.
   
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Someone's tilted about Orks. Woof.

I'll be convinced Orks are better than mid tier after we have 20-30 tournaments with consistent top placings.

And complaining our one good relic is too good is a bit much from a space marine player who might literally have 30+ relics between all the books that are top tier amazing and where a Thunder hammer is ROUGHLY as good as it. I would take a Thunder Hammer any day over the relic Klaw.

Oh, and your TH are going to 4 damage now. That hits as hard as GHAZ.

Ork relics suck. To the point I rarely bother taking a second one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 17:10:55


 
   
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 DrGiggles wrote:
You could make DKK just do flat 3 damage without the reroll wounds and ork players would still take it.

I agree, that's another good reason to nerf it in my book. Although, I would probably just give it -1 to hit because being more likely to hit its target or being less unwieldy is AFAIK not in any way part of Da Killa Klaw's identity. That would make it a klaw with an extra damage and re-roll failed wounds (which is either re-roll 1s or 1s and 2s) this puts DKK on par with other weapon relics in terms of how much better it is.
blaktoof wrote:
I hope its more powerful than a thunderhammer, because if it's not then thunderhammers need to become 40/80pts. Maybe +/-10 pts depending on how expensive you think 1 CP is worth in points.

1CP = roughly 20 pts, depends on how under or overcosted the Stratagems of a faction is. A thunderhammer on a Captain is 40, a power klaw is 10 on a Warboss. A relic power klaw should not be as powerful as a thunderhammer if you buy into thunderhammers being worth 40 and 1CP = 20 pts because 10+20 =/= 40. But I don't want to kill Da Killa Klaw, I just want to rein it in by removing one of the three effects it has, which would still make it superior to a thunderhammer, but not superior to a relic thunderhammer. I think it is fair to say a 40 pt relic weapon should be superior to a 10 pt relic weapon.
SemperMortis wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:


Orks have a 67% win-rate in 9th tournament stats recorded on 40kstats, that's close to Salamanders, the best SM chapter (it might be as low as 59% I'm not sure how the numbers are different between faction vs faction and subfaction results). Goffs have an 80% win-rate, which is kind of absurd, but not necessarily representative and the breadth of lists that have topped for Orks makes it hard to pinpoint exactly what does and does not need a nerf and a buff.


Ah, well, we better change the entire meta because have 9 lists used so far in 9th edition and are played by people competent enough to place well. And those Goffs with their 80% win rate with a whole...2 lists used. We just started 9th editions tournament play due to covid and the entire Ork faction has 9 lists recorded in 40k stats and you are going to try and use that as justification for nerfs for an entire faction? Jumping the gun a bit aren't we? Maybe let SM players realize they still need to take anti-infantry weapons to a tournament before trying to sabotage an entire faction.

We shouldn't talk too loudly about competency in 40k, we'll alert the 40k requires no skill crowd, if you think me asking for reasonable nerfs is bad... I don't think I asked for a change to the entire meta, I don't think I've asked for anything concrete other than a DKK nerf which another Ork player claims will have no effect, I said that maybe a few units need 5% pts increases, which might include Ghazzy, that's all I said, a 5% nerf is about as small as you can make a nerf if you want to have any hope of it having an effect.
As far as placing in top 4s with grotz...doesn't take much to realize they are just the cheapest troop tax.

And finally, the nay sayers were correct, 5pt grots are useless, they are just the cheapest troop tax you can take unless you would rather just drop CP on a detachment so you don't have to take troops.

If a unit regularly gets brought in top 4 lists it does not need a price decrease. Doesn't matter if the unit gets brought because another unit is undercosted or because of troop tax or whatever, unless you nerf the HQs that Gretchin are being brought to allow into a list then I don't think Gretchin can get a buff until they stop showing up in top 4 GT lists. But as I said I imagine people will stop bringing additional detachments for more HQ at the cost of bringing Gretchin and then Gretchin can get the buff they most likely deserve, but if they don't then I think it would be unfair to buff them given that there are units that aren't being brought in top 4 GT lists at all.
Killa Klaw cost 9, thunder hammer costs 40. So you agree Killa Klaw should go up by 30 pts? There is no SM thunder hammer that provides re-roll failed wounds, +1 damage and +1 to hit one of these needs to go.

The difference between a Killa Klaw and the regular PK is that the PK has -1 to hit the relic does not, The Relic also allows reroll failed wounds (almost exactly the same as a reroll 1s because warboss is S12 with a klaw) and it has a flat 3 dmg as opposed to D3 for a klaw. I agree the TH is over priced on the SM HQs, but maybe that is the price you pay for not having to take a relic slot to equip what is fundamentally the same weapon as an Ork relic. Also, its 10pts not 9

Those differences between DKK and a regular PK are too large. People were bringing thunder hammers and doing well with them even when they cost 40 with 3 Damage, so for certain Captains, I actually don't think 40 is too much.I don't know by what math you can justify DKK having the rules that it currently does, do you think all relic weapons should provide value in the realm of what DKK provides? If you had access to relics of similar value as DKK would you not be taking at least 2 relics every game? Would everybody taking at least 2 relics every game not be a show of relics being overpowered? The removal of specialist detachments in favour of just giving the majority of armies more relics and Stratagems for free was asinineas was thoroughly nerfing a unit based on it being overpowered with a relic that is no longer allowed in tournaments. That being said, doubling the firepower of a weapon with so much firepower already was silly and the SSAG will need a nerf for casual pts play after SAG Meks come down in pts.
tulun wrote:
Someone's tilted about Orks. Woof.

I'll be convinced Orks are better than mid tier after we have 20-30 tournaments with consistent top placings.

And complaining our one good relic is too good is a bit much from a space marine player who might literally have 30+ relics between all the books that are top tier amazing and where a Thunder hammer is ROUGHLY as good as it. I would take a Thunder Hammer any day over the relic Klaw.

Oh, and your TH are going to 4 damage now. That hits as hard as GHAZ.

Ork relics suck. To the point I rarely bother taking a second one.

I'm not tilted about Orks, I'm surprised and happy they are doing so well, I was sure they were going to be crap, I think I congratulated Ork tournament toppers in an earlier comment, really don't know why you would think I'm tilted about Orks. I agree that we currently have too little data to be sure of anything other than a need for nerfing DKK, I'll take three pieces of oddly layed dog poops on my lawn as a sign that DKK needs a nerf though. I'm not a Marine player, Necrons do have better relics than Orks though. Both our best and our median is better than what Orks get, although I think the worst Necron relic is worse than anything Orks have on offer. I've only played 1 game with IF and less than a dozen with Flesh Tearers and I have used neither in 9th, I don't think it's fair to judge me as a Space Marines player. TH going up to 4 makes me retch, it's a good idea, but not fair if it doesn't happen to other faction's melee weapons like warscythes and power klaws, ideally this change would come with a reduction in the power of Stratagems because getting up to 30 D4 thunderhammer attacks or 30 D3 power klaw attacks for 3CP is too much IMO. I don't think second relics should be the standard as I said earlier in this comment, but Scorched Gitbones, Supa Cybork Body and Da Lucky Stick are either worth 1CP or just under on the right kinds of characters, none other than DKK are worth 2CP though, which is how it should be IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 18:08:16


 
   
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I think you are in denial if you think 1 CP is 20 pts.

Most of the faction terrain which grants an effect similiar to 1 CP costs about 80pts.

Regardless in crazy town where 1 CP is worth about 20pts, you still have the issue that you can take 1 killa klaw in an entire ork army.

Whereas you could have 6 intercessor squad sgts, an unit of elites who all have Thammers and 2 characters with thunderhammers in a SM army.

Simple question, would you give up having thunder hammers as an army option for the ability to take 1 relic hammer with the same stats as the killa klaw? You can still get powerfists and chain fists.

I would give up the killa klaw for MANz with thunder hammers, nobz with thunder hammers, and a non relic thunderhammer on a warboss.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 19:34:30


 
   
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i don't agree on the DKK being OP i mean compared to other relics its good but its not feeding us command points every turn good. compare it to the other ork relics though and its pretty obvious why it is taken almost always

our basic ones


super cybork, 5++ i mean its nice but most orks bring a painbody to buff right beside the warboss so a 6++ becomeng a 5++ seems unremarkable. I suppose it "saves" us the 65 points of a painboy, but you need the 6++ to run boys anyway so you still have to buy it.

gitstoppa shells +1 str, dmg and ap to the damage... ok this looks nice until... on the ork's shooting attacks. hitting on 5+ or flamer which if you are in flamer range you often don't want to use them because opponents will pull models away from the warboss making charges more difficult.

da deadly shooter even worse than above tripple the worthless shots (12 instead of 4. still str 4, but adds -1 ap. 18" range. so with ork BS its 2.64 more hits at str 4 ap-1 damage 1... as a relic.

headwoppa's lkillchoppa is +2 str, -2 AP and damage 2 rips through primaris space marines, 6+ to wound means 2 mortal wounds instead. problem is the same as big choppas though, 5 points more buys a claw. a big choppa should be included loadout on a warboss. being so close in cost and no superior over the claw I would say if it were ap-4 it would be worth considering.

the last is by far the worst. scorched gitbonez just means you blow yourself up more often. wierdboys already have +1 for each 10 infantry near them up to +3. this relic is +1 to psychic tests no perils protection so he still blows up. if it gave protection from perils it might be worth considering as wierdboys often die so fast to themselves.


that is it, end of list, the rest are clan specific.

orks are cp starved. if you gave us a relic of 5+ to gain a cp when a stratagem it used (max 1 per turn) like most armies have i think most of us would prefer that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 02:04:28


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If Da Killa Klaw lost re-roll to wound and kill saws went to 3 damage, at 15 points a pop? I'd call it a win.

Calling for our lone good relic, now that the Souped Up SAG is gone, to be nerfed is insulting and shows zero understanding of the current state of our army.
   
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The killa klaw is the only good relic in the ork codex, especially now that the SSAG is gone. If you want GW to nerf the killa klaw because every list uses it then they should give us actually useable relics to take its place.

Ever consider that its used in every list because its the only thing worth taking?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 22:59:09


 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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 Alwrath wrote:
So, after a big second place GT win after crushing 2 Space Marine armies ( Ultra Marines, Blood Angels ), how do Ork players feel about the current meta? Are you happy that Orks are strong in 8th/9th edition? Are you glad the green tide is strong right now? How many Space Marine armies have you killed at your local meta? I honestly am considering ebaying my Primaris in favor of Orks atm, the PA book and codex look amazing, and I honestly cant wait to see what the 9th edition codex brings to the green players since 8th/9th has proven they are already an amazing army to play, especially in objective games.


-I think the current meta is still finding itself, I feel like it's seen a considerable shakeup and orkz are the lowest common denominator at the moment.

-It's great news to hear orkz are doing well, like I wanna go home and paint models now.

-I haven't racked up any games in 9th yet.

-I hope you join us in our quest to frustrate TAC armies with our spam and slam objectives game.

From what I read orkz are throwing paper, and people are bringing rock


I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
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tulun wrote:
Someone's tilted about Orks. Woof.

I'll be convinced Orks are better than mid tier after we have 20-30 tournaments with consistent top placings.

And complaining our one good relic is too good is a bit much from a space marine player who might literally have 30+ relics between all the books that are top tier amazing and where a Thunder hammer is ROUGHLY as good as it. I would take a Thunder Hammer any day over the relic Klaw.

Oh, and your TH are going to 4 damage now. That hits as hard as GHAZ.

Ork relics suck. To the point I rarely bother taking a second one.


If you think a thunder hammer right now is roughly as good as DKK then you're even more delusional than the guy who thinks it should be nerfed just because the only good Ork relic is showing up in Ork lists lol.
   
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I looked into the thread and wonder what all the hullaballoo is about and then I see the poster who caused all the Ork players to descend into the comments and I wasn't surprised.

I've mainly encountered vict0988 in the Proposed Rules sub-thread and almost any time Orks have been brought up in some fashion, it's always that they're too strong or that they need to be nerfed in some fashion. He clearly has some sort of bias given that he somehow extrapolates one remotely good thing about the Ork army as indicative of the army being broken in some way. You'd think someone who plays Necrons would get a thing or two about suboptimal internal codex balance, but I guess we'll see how he feels when the new Necron codex comes out and people want to nerf whatever viable options are revealed for them.

Btw, no joke, this is the same guy who thought the Bad Moons klan trait is better than other faction equivalent's (not factoring the better BS and synergy for other factions like Cadians) and thought Da Jump should cast on an 8/9, AND wanted to nerf our 3CP fight again (already nerfed) and 2CP fight again on death strats.

I asked him that just because we are competitive in 8th ed (at the time), that we should be nerfed? His answer? Yes.

Here's the link to the thread if you don't believe me. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779167.page

So I don't think there's any point in trying to convince him when it's clearly his agenda to put Orks down from the get-go.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/19 00:56:17


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I haven't had any success with green tide lists against seriously competitive lists. Blast weapons are too good. Guard players can consistently eat like 2 units of 30 a turn.

I spent an entire game in my deployment zone against an ad mech player who was halving my movement with the new flyer and keeping me from moving with his hounds that can move 12" when they get charged.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/19 02:03:52


 
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
I looked into the thread and wonder what all the hullaballoo is about and then I see the poster who caused all the Ork players to descend into the comments and I wasn't surprised.

I've mainly encountered vict0988 in the Proposed Rules sub-thread and almost any time Orks have been brought up in some fashion, it's always that they're too strong or that they need to be nerfed in some fashion. He clearly has some sort of bias given that he somehow extrapolates one remotely good thing about the Ork army as indicative of the army being broken in some way. You'd think someone who plays Necrons would get a thing or two about suboptimal internal codex balance, but I guess we'll see how he feels when the new Necron codex comes out and people want to nerf whatever viable options are revealed for them.

Btw, no joke, this is the same guy who thought the Bad Moons klan trait is better than other faction equivalent's (not factoring the better BS and synergy for other factions like Cadians) and thought Da Jump should cast on an 8/9, AND wanted to nerf our 3CP fight again (already nerfed) and 2CP fight again on death strats.

I asked him that just because we are competitive in 8th ed (at the time), that we should be nerfed? His answer? Yes.

Here's the link to the thread if you don't believe me. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779167.page

So I don't think there's any point in trying to convince him when it's clearly his agenda to put Orks down from the get-go.


Jfc. Him and Xenomancers should be banned from talking about Orks lol

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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 Billagio wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
I looked into the thread and wonder what all the hullaballoo is about and then I see the poster who caused all the Ork players to descend into the comments and I wasn't surprised.

I've mainly encountered vict0988 in the Proposed Rules sub-thread and almost any time Orks have been brought up in some fashion, it's always that they're too strong or that they need to be nerfed in some fashion. He clearly has some sort of bias given that he somehow extrapolates one remotely good thing about the Ork army as indicative of the army being broken in some way. You'd think someone who plays Necrons would get a thing or two about suboptimal internal codex balance, but I guess we'll see how he feels when the new Necron codex comes out and people want to nerf whatever viable options are revealed for them.

Btw, no joke, this is the same guy who thought the Bad Moons klan trait is better than other faction equivalent's (not factoring the better BS and synergy for other factions like Cadians) and thought Da Jump should cast on an 8/9, AND wanted to nerf our 3CP fight again (already nerfed) and 2CP fight again on death strats.

I asked him that just because we are competitive in 8th ed (at the time), that we should be nerfed? His answer? Yes.

Here's the link to the thread if you don't believe me. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779167.page

So I don't think there's any point in trying to convince him when it's clearly his agenda to put Orks down from the get-go.


Jfc. Him and Xenomancers should be banned from talking about Orks lol


I'm fine with open discussion about our faction regardless of critcism, but only if its in good faith. When they clearly come from places of either (often wilful) ignorance of our army and clearly want to put down Orks as an army out of spite or their own twisted idea of what balance is, then there's really no discussion anymore.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
I looked into the thread and wonder what all the hullaballoo is about and then I see the poster who caused all the Ork players to descend into the comments and I wasn't surprised.

I've mainly encountered vict0988 in the Proposed Rules sub-thread and almost any time Orks have been brought up in some fashion, it's always that they're too strong or that they need to be nerfed in some fashion. He clearly has some sort of bias given that he somehow extrapolates one remotely good thing about the Ork army as indicative of the army being broken in some way. You'd think someone who plays Necrons would get a thing or two about suboptimal internal codex balance, but I guess we'll see how he feels when the new Necron codex comes out and people want to nerf whatever viable options are revealed for them.

Btw, no joke, this is the same guy who thought the Bad Moons klan trait is better than other faction equivalent's (not factoring the better BS and synergy for other factions like Cadians) and thought Da Jump should cast on an 8/9, AND wanted to nerf our 3CP fight again (already nerfed) and 2CP fight again on death strats.

I asked him that just because we are competitive in 8th ed (at the time), that we should be nerfed? His answer? Yes.

Here's the link to the thread if you don't believe me. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779167.page

So I don't think there's any point in trying to convince him when it's clearly his agenda to put Orks down from the get-go.


Jfc. Him and Xenomancers should be banned from talking about Orks lol


I'm fine with open discussion about our faction regardless of critcism, but only if its in good faith. When they clearly come from places of either (often wilful) ignorance of our army and clearly want to put down Orks as an army out of spite or their own twisted idea of what balance is, then there's really no discussion anymore.


it really is obvious people who have never played horde armies. the idea that you can magically get 30 boyz into a single combat is just extremely unlikely. Maybe if you get the perfect terrain setup and roll a 12 on your charge after da jumping. I have been doing well against lists meant to counter space marines, but when people pull out the flamers and blasts i run out of models pretty damn fast.

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 Grimskul wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
I looked into the thread and wonder what all the hullaballoo is about and then I see the poster who caused all the Ork players to descend into the comments and I wasn't surprised.

I've mainly encountered vict0988 in the Proposed Rules sub-thread and almost any time Orks have been brought up in some fashion, it's always that they're too strong or that they need to be nerfed in some fashion. He clearly has some sort of bias given that he somehow extrapolates one remotely good thing about the Ork army as indicative of the army being broken in some way. You'd think someone who plays Necrons would get a thing or two about suboptimal internal codex balance, but I guess we'll see how he feels when the new Necron codex comes out and people want to nerf whatever viable options are revealed for them.

Btw, no joke, this is the same guy who thought the Bad Moons klan trait is better than other faction equivalent's (not factoring the better BS and synergy for other factions like Cadians) and thought Da Jump should cast on an 8/9, AND wanted to nerf our 3CP fight again (already nerfed) and 2CP fight again on death strats.

I asked him that just because we are competitive in 8th ed (at the time), that we should be nerfed? His answer? Yes.

Here's the link to the thread if you don't believe me. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779167.page

So I don't think there's any point in trying to convince him when it's clearly his agenda to put Orks down from the get-go.


Jfc. Him and Xenomancers should be banned from talking about Orks lol


I'm fine with open discussion about our faction regardless of critcism, but only if its in good faith. When they clearly come from places of either (often wilful) ignorance of our army and clearly want to put down Orks as an army out of spite or their own twisted idea of what balance is, then there's really no discussion anymore.


This sounds like every single post I've ever seen from at least one of them though. It's simply clearer to recognise it when its your own army being discussed. When someone can't even talk about his own army from a place of anything other than ignorance, they probably need to rethink clambering for nerfs for other people's. Orks are definitely good in 9th, but NERFS? And those ones? Cmon. What a meme. Practice, get better. Stop being such a bad player. That's all there is to it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/19 04:09:58


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:


The only thing that 100% needs a nerf is Da Killa Klaw, but Ork players will whine and scream if it happens, they whine and scream as soon as it is suggested.


Warboss with killa klaw is on par with SM captain with TH, except the latter can also take jump packs to be mobile, deepstrike and assault flyers.
At least the old school ones until/unless they get squatted.

I really don't see anything overpowered here, with the melee oriented commander getting a damage 3 close combat weapon which is allowed on one model only; if anything it's the standard power klaw and killsaw that should be buffed to be at least flat 3 damage now that thunder hammers are flat 4, and other relics to be buffed. Killa Klaw is litterally the only relic worth taking in the entire codex, again we're not SM that have tons of them.
   
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blaktoof wrote:
I think you are in denial if you think 1 CP is 20 pts.

Most of the faction terrain which grants an effect similiar to 1 CP costs about 80pts.

Regardless in crazy town where 1 CP is worth about 20pts, you still have the issue that you can take 1 killa klaw in an entire ork army.

Whereas you could have 6 intercessor squad sgts, an unit of elites who all have Thammers and 2 characters with thunderhammers in a SM army.

Simple question, would you give up having thunder hammers as an army option for the ability to take 1 relic hammer with the same stats as the killa klaw? You can still get powerfists and chain fists.

I would give up the killa klaw for MANz with thunder hammers, nobz with thunder hammers, and a non relic thunderhammer on a warboss.

Mekboy Workshop grants a kustom job, a place to hide models and two additional abilities and it still isn't worth 80 pts, I was talking more abstractly, not by whatever hugely flawed method GW implements their pts. How insane is it to overpay for Gretchin and lose 2CP just to bring 1 HQ if each CP is worth 80 pts? That's 170 pts added to the HQ's cost, is a Weirdboy worth more than 200 pts at any time?

Sure, I mostly ran power fists on my Intercessors and thunder hammers being 40 pts were not worth it on HQ other than Smash Caps which I avoided, upgrading my power fist Lieutenant with DKK would be great. On second thought I don't think it'd be a good fit for my Flesh Tearers, it'd cost 2CP since my list already features 2 relics and at that cost I'd rather keep access to 3D TH. At 4D TH are going to be insane I think and leaving other weapons with half their damage output seems hugely unfair.
tulun wrote:
If Da Killa Klaw lost re-roll to wound and kill saws went to 3 damage, at 15 points a pop? I'd call it a win.

Calling for our lone good relic, now that the Souped Up SAG is gone, to be nerfed is insulting and shows zero understanding of the current state of our army.

I hope something like that happens if it'd make you happy, seems fair to me.

People get insulted over the insults to their prophet, but getting insulted over suggesting a nerf to a relic is a little silly right Imagine a world where DKK won you the game on a 2+ and every other Ork relic lost you the game on a 6+, Orks win 90% of their games and 95% of tournaments by bringing this relic and it's the only common feature, people are bringing Mekboy Workshops, Stompas, Flywings, everything but other relics. Would it be an insult to suggest nerfing that DKK to winning on 6+? How about Iron Hands Ironstone? It was the only relic that was in its class in terms of how good it was, the only good Iron Hands relic as it was, I suggested it should be nerfed because Iron Hands had a really good win rate and the relic was worth too much more than 1CP, was that an insult to Iron Hands players? Do you want to be the person who was like the Iron Hands players that complained when suggestions for nerfing their faction were coming up or when they finally did get nerfed? Because saying you are insulted is not an argument and saying it's your only good relic is a bad argument as I have highlighted by taking the argument to the extreme in my example above. I think knowing what your best relic in tournaments is shows some understanding of the current state of your army so "zero understanding" is factually wrong.
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 vict0988 wrote:

Do you have a number in mind? I totally agree that it could just be an early lucky streak, so is it 15 or 25 lists before we are sure that Orks need a nerf? Would me looking into the data for smaller tournaments be enough to convince you or are we sticking with GTs? I won't go looking into smaller tournament data if you don't care. Do you want to discuss how many top 4 GT placings is needed before we can agree that Orks need to be nerfed? Is it 6 or 10? I think 4/19 lists placing top 4 in 30+ person events already says quite a bit, maybe my math is off and it's actually quite likely to be due to chance, but my gut feeling is that it isn't.

At the very least I would expect twice that number of events recorded. My gripe with drawing conclusions from 40kstats right now that they are recording a very small amount of events and that their numbers actually contradict those of other people like goonhammer. If orks were so OP, why did they only win 15 out of 29 games that were observed?
Due to 40kstats mostly recording US events and the pandemic being completely out of control there, we now have the amount data of what would have been two weekends before the pandemic. Asking for a nerf of a faction after just two weekends of data would not have made sense then and doesn't make sense now.

Did you not say DKK was the only good Ork relic? If it's the only good one then people taking another relic would make their list worse, no? Or is that power klaw characters are so overpriced that even with a free relic they don't compare to your other more efficient choices?

It would make the list worse, but it's not essential to its strategy. To understand this problem, you need to understand ork listbuilding.

I provided several reasons for why DKK should be nerfed, prevalence in current and previous metas and comparison with other relics such as Salamander's Drakesmiter.

Neither of those are arguments.
If you follow the wiki link I provided, you'll find out that the correlation between killa klaws and ork wins is not an argument by itself. It's similar to how in the 90s the user count of the Internet Explorer perfectly correlated with the number of murders in Chicago. Obviously the Internet Explorer did not cause people to commit more murders. Well, it might have, but then the phenomenon would not have been limited to Chicago. You also need to provide proof (for example from battle reports) that the killa klaw is crucial to an ork list's success for your observation to actually be an argument.
On the issues of that salamanders hammer - you are really comparing apples to oranges here. Salamanders get to re-roll one hit and one wound, the captain wielding it re-rolls ones to hit anyways, it can be vastly faster than a warboss and three times faster than a mek, has a 4++ save, has more AP and the ability to double its damage. A captain with the Drakesmiter is still vastly superior to a warboss with da killa klaw.

Your argument for why Orks should not be nerfed is "wait and see", which is fair enough, your argument for not nerfing DKK is as far as I can see

Da Killa Klaw has clearly not been a problem for the last three years, despite a much more powerful character than a foot warboss or MA big mek wielding it. There is no reason to believe it has suddenly become OP overnight.

"Orks should krump good, DKK krump good, DKK = ".

Look, another ad hominem attack.

That was my whole point, if it is worth bringing on a MA Big Mek it's clearly leaps and bounds too OP. No Necrons player would ever put weapon relic on a Lord because they are not proper fighting characters and Necrons do have a couple of weapon relics worth 1 CP, just not on a Lord, in the same manner I would argue that other relics should be more optimal than DKK when you don't have anything better than a MA Big Mek to put it on.

Ah, now I understand.
You have no fething clue how orks work, and you clearly don't even know their statlines. Go check a rulebook before you continue to make yourself look like a fool.
"MA Big Meks are not proper fighting characters"
Hilarious.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/19 09:38:44


 
   
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All this crap about the Killa Klaw while Marines get the Fist of Terra that does virtually the same thing but tirades reroll wounds for +1 attack (which as a Deathskull I'd rather have)...

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Made in fr
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This thread is comedy gold. How anyone can believe a faction is winning games because of a buffed up power claw is beyond me.
   
 
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