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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Another thing video missed was that while model price might not have gone up that much army price has which affects accessability. Even inflation adjusted i doubt 1997 army costed 400 it can easily cost now. (if that even covers it).

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Stevenage, UK

That's why these things are averages.
I have to ask - this notion of wages stagnating - is that in comparison to inflation? Because I find it very hard to believe that on average, wages haven't risen in the last 10 years.

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An extremely important factor is the quality of the product. GW has definitely seen price rises over the years. They aren't as bad when factoring in inflation, but they are undeniably present in a significant way. However the products themselves are of vastly superior quality; it makes sense that they would cost more. Someone could still make the argument that prices are higher than they should be, but it remains that a straight comparison of prices to inferior miniatures is not a fair one.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
That's why these things are averages.
I have to ask - this notion of wages stagnating - is that in comparison to inflation? Because I find it very hard to believe that on average, wages haven't risen in the last 10 years.


Depends on the raise.

If I get an annual raise of 2%, but inflation was 2.5%, and my rent rises by 3%, my wage has reduced.

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 Super Ready wrote:
That's why these things are averages.
I have to ask - this notion of wages stagnating - is that in comparison to inflation? Because I find it very hard to believe that on average, wages haven't risen in the last 10 years.
It is a complex dynamic involving actual wages, inflation, and cost of living. The basic reality is that cost of living has increased far beyond wages.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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 catbarf wrote:


Take Cadians as an example. In 1997, ten pewter Cadians cost £17, which after accounting for inflation to 2020 means the prices have dropped. However, in 2003, the plastic Cadian set released at a price of £18 for twenty models. Accounting for inflation puts the current price of the same exact sculpt at 57% higher today than it was on release.

The elephant in the room is that while inflation has driven prices upwards, wages have largely stayed static both in the US and UK, reducing the average purchasing power of a typical consumer. Not GW's fault there, but when discussing the affordability of the hobby as a whole it's relevant.

And lastly, while not strictly related to the per-model price, the number of models required to play the game has steadily crept upwards as well. Comparing the size of armies between 2nd, 5th, and 8th there's a noticeable upward trend. I was actually really surprised at the points increases in the transition to 9th, but my 2000pt army from 3rd is still only ~1500pts now. That, too, increases the perceived price of the hobby, even if the models were to stay at the same price.


These are the key points. The fact that plastic miniatures now aren't a lot more expensive than metal miniatures then isn't a very good comparison when the exact same plastic kits have been jacked up in price substantially (typically more than 30% over inflation) over the the last 20 years. When you combine with that largely stagnant wages and inflated model counts in the average army, you get a hobby that is significantly more expensive relative to the average person's budget than it was.

I mean look at this latest ridiculous push to get people to buy several hundred quid worth of extremely expensive GW branded terrain as part of their armies, with the explicit instruction that the terrain you'll want will vary based on your army, so you may need to also buy different terrain sets for each army you own too. There is really no doubt that GW is continuing to look for any way possible to jack up the cost of the hobby.
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
However the products themselves are of vastly superior quality; it makes sense that they would cost more.


I think when you have products that literally have not changed (eg Cadians, Catachans, Ork Boyz, Dire Avengers) but have increased in price well in excess of inflation, this argument isn't universally applicable. And while increasing quality definitely represents increased value for painters, I think there's a considerable subset of the community that is more concerned with how expensive it is to play the game than how nice their models are.

If these beyond-inflation price increases only happened when units got updated sculpts, I think it'd be a lot more reasonable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 16:41:21


 
   
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Tbh, I'm not sure if the video was trying to make a serious point.
Materials and their price change, production cost and means change, box content changes, purchasing power changes, international pricing policy.... Yeah.

It's an interesting topic for sure, I'd be cool to have an exhaustive study taking into account as many variables as possible. A dumbed down video barely scratches the surface.
   
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VBS wrote:
Tbh, I'm not sure if the video was trying to make a serious point.
Materials and their price change, production cost and means change, box content changes, purchasing power changes, international pricing policy.... Yeah.

It's an interesting topic for sure, I'd be cool to have an exhaustive study taking into account as many variables as possible. A dumbed down video barely scratches the surface.


It takes the steam out of the one-sided arguments. As with everything - it isn't always so simple.

I "remember" buying the metal LoC for $50 around that time. He should scan all the prices - it'd be a nice trip down memory lane. In any case if my memory is correct that $50 model is now $81. The new LoC is $140, but it's 4 times (or more) the size, too.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
VBS wrote:
Tbh, I'm not sure if the video was trying to make a serious point.
Materials and their price change, production cost and means change, box content changes, purchasing power changes, international pricing policy.... Yeah.

It's an interesting topic for sure, I'd be cool to have an exhaustive study taking into account as many variables as possible. A dumbed down video barely scratches the surface.


It takes the steam out of the one-sided arguments. As with everything - it isn't always so simple.

I "remember" buying the metal LoC for $50 around that time. He should scan all the prices - it'd be a nice trip down memory lane. In any case if my memory is correct that $50 model is now $81. The new LoC is $140, but it's 4 times (or more) the size, too.


Its not made of solid metal though.



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AdmiralHalsey wrote:


Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Yeah that's an important bit. The current plastic guardsmen being cheaper, adjusting for inflation, than the original metals were, wouldn't surprise me, but the plastics also used to be $35 for 20, not $36 for 10. Adjusting for inflation from when they changed that (2010ish, maybe 2009) a squad of ten should be more $22, if adjusting from when the plastic Cadians were first released (2002/2003) probably more $25 for 10. There's definitely areas where changes in materials or inflation do not account for price increases.

That said, there's some good points raised in that many products aren't really much more expensive, and in all fairness to GW many of the more expensive the models are much more impressive and physically larger than most older models which justify higher costs on many newer models (e.g. old Greater Daemons to new ones). The problem is gamer's budgets on average haven't increased

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The model quality is higher, but I don't know that it's a particular gain to be paying more for a bigger model. Moving those huge new models is a massive pain; I'd much rather they had kept the LoC the old size instead of giving him steroids.
   
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 Vaktathi wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:


Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Yeah that's an important bit. The current plastic guardsmen being cheaper, adjusting for inflation, than the original metals were, wouldn't surprise me, but the plastics also used to be $35 for 20, not $36 for 10. Adjusting for inflation from when they changed that (2010ish, maybe 2009) a squad of ten should be more $22, if adjusting from when the plastic Cadians were first released (2002/2003) probably more $25 for 10. There's definitely areas where changes in materials or inflation do not account for price increases.

That said, there's some good points raised in that many products aren't really much more expensive, and in all fairness to GW many of the more expensive the models are much more impressive and physically larger than most older models which justify higher costs on many newer models (e.g. old Greater Daemons to new ones). The problem is gamer's budgets on average haven't increased


That is a different (and entirely valid) topic.]

The video is comparing the cost of 10 Catachans in 1997 to the cost of 10 Catachans in 2020 directly.

Otherwise we’d need to look into what 10 metal Catachans cost immediately prior to the 20 strong box of plastics as well.

Again, that is of course an entirely valid discussion topic. But, isn’t covered in the video we’re discussing.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:


Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Yeah that's an important bit. The current plastic guardsmen being cheaper, adjusting for inflation, than the original metals were, wouldn't surprise me, but the plastics also used to be $35 for 20, not $36 for 10. Adjusting for inflation from when they changed that (2010ish, maybe 2009) a squad of ten should be more $22, if adjusting from when the plastic Cadians were first released (2002/2003) probably more $25 for 10. There's definitely areas where changes in materials or inflation do not account for price increases.

That said, there's some good points raised in that many products aren't really much more expensive, and in all fairness to GW many of the more expensive the models are much more impressive and physically larger than most older models which justify higher costs on many newer models (e.g. old Greater Daemons to new ones). The problem is gamer's budgets on average haven't increased


That is a different (and entirely valid) topic.]

The video is comparing the cost of 10 Catachans in 1997 to the cost of 10 Catachans in 2020 directly.

Otherwise we’d need to look into what 10 metal Catachans cost immediately prior to the 20 strong box of plastics as well.

Again, that is of course an entirely valid discussion topic. But, isn’t covered in the video we’re discussing.


But that is just straight dishonest as they are not the same product. You know why everyone jokingly uses Freddos as a barometer for inflation, because they are the same bloody product as they were back in the day.

In 1999 20 plastic Catachans cost you £10. In 2020 10 of the exact same sculpts cost £20. That is the comparisons that should be used, not dishonestly comparing different product. Otherwise you can literally say they have never risen in price, as those 10 metal Catachans back in the day were £20 for 10. Not even taking into account in 1997ish the prices took a jump anyway due to GW switching from lead to pewter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/24 17:38:36




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It is a very disengenuous stance for the video to take, intentionally manipulating the data to portray an altered picture of what is actually there. Basically the same as the ideological spin US news puts on everything these days, no surprise it's getting some eye rolls.

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Annandale, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That is a different (and entirely valid) topic.]

The video is comparing the cost of 10 Catachans in 1997 to the cost of 10 Catachans in 2020 directly.

Otherwise we’d need to look into what 10 metal Catachans cost immediately prior to the 20 strong box of plastics as well.

Again, that is of course an entirely valid discussion topic. But, isn’t covered in the video we’re discussing.


If the purpose of the video is 'have GW's prices actually trended upwards in excess of inflation?', then cherry-picking a year that represents a historical high point, prior to the release less-expensive and still-current models, does not accurately or completely answer the question.

If the question was 'were GW models in specifically 1997 less expensive than their current design equivalents after accounting for inflation?', then it'd be accurate. But it's clearly making a much more general point than that.
   
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 Grimtuff wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:


Clearly the change from metal to plastic is in there. I can't believe guardsmen have dropped - I wonder if he was taking into account the old box was 20 and the new box is ten?
Yeah that's an important bit. The current plastic guardsmen being cheaper, adjusting for inflation, than the original metals were, wouldn't surprise me, but the plastics also used to be $35 for 20, not $36 for 10. Adjusting for inflation from when they changed that (2010ish, maybe 2009) a squad of ten should be more $22, if adjusting from when the plastic Cadians were first released (2002/2003) probably more $25 for 10. There's definitely areas where changes in materials or inflation do not account for price increases.

That said, there's some good points raised in that many products aren't really much more expensive, and in all fairness to GW many of the more expensive the models are much more impressive and physically larger than most older models which justify higher costs on many newer models (e.g. old Greater Daemons to new ones). The problem is gamer's budgets on average haven't increased


That is a different (and entirely valid) topic.]

The video is comparing the cost of 10 Catachans in 1997 to the cost of 10 Catachans in 2020 directly.

Otherwise we’d need to look into what 10 metal Catachans cost immediately prior to the 20 strong box of plastics as well.

Again, that is of course an entirely valid discussion topic. But, isn’t covered in the video we’re discussing.


But that is just straight dishonest as they are not the same product. You know why everyone jokingly uses Freddos as a barometer for inflation, because they are the same bloody product as they were back in the day.

In 1999 20 plastic Catachans cost you £10. In 2020 10 of the exact same sculpts cost £20. That is the comparisons that should be used, not dishonestly comparing different product. Otherwise you can literally say they have never risen in price, as those 10 metal Catachans back in the day were £20 for 10. Not even taking into account in 1997ish the prices took a jump anyway due to GW switching from lead to pewter.


Yeah, it's in fact so disingenuous that I think that youtuber is getting kickbacks or goodies in exchange for shilling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 18:06:16


 
   
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It's clearly got nothing to do with the fact they only price guide they have is for 1997 and they already highlighted the difficulty in getting concise historical prices from that time period or anything.

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Yeah I think it's just a really unfortunate coincidence with using almost the least representative year as the comparison point. I doubt the guy meant to shill or anything, it just happened by chance that the year he chose was one of the only years that made the comparison look ok for GW.
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
The model quality is higher, but I don't know that it's a particular gain to be paying more for a bigger model. Moving those huge new models is a massive pain; I'd much rather they had kept the LoC the old size instead of giving him steroids.


To each his own - I want to own one of every GD. That was my dream as a kid. The new LoC is my spirit animal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
Yeah, it's in fact so disingenuous that I think that youtuber is getting kickbacks or goodies in exchange for shilling.


lol, that's enough internet for today.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 19:16:05


   
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AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's clearly got nothing to do with the fact they only price guide they have is for 1997 and they already highlighted the difficulty in getting concise historical prices from that time period or anything.


Mmmm, sounds like a copout. Either do the research or don't, don't try to obfuscate the issue.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's clearly got nothing to do with the fact they only price guide they have is for 1997 and they already highlighted the difficulty in getting concise historical prices from that time period or anything.


Mmmm, sounds like a copout. Either do the research or don't, don't try to obfuscate the issue.


Plus, of all years they could have picked; 1997 is the worst of the bunch. As I mentioned in my other post The Great Lead Sale happened in 1997 when GW switched from lead to pewter and the prices (and contents of blisters) changed dramatically almost overnight.

I've got scans of loads of White Dwarfs (yo ho ho! ) and you can see the changes pre and post lead. When the Catachans first came out they were lead and you could get four special weapon guys in a single blister pack for £4.99. I got in this hobby just after the GLS and the IG special weapon blisters were two guys for either £3 or £4 (I don't remember precisely). So straight off the bat the numbers are out of whack as their baseline changed in that year.



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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Voss wrote:
How does it account for things like Dire Avengers- the box got cut in half model-wise and was subsequently hit with price raises?


Well, if memory serves Dire Avengers came in blister packs of three, with the Exarch being a separate blister?

The comparisons in the vid are straight “what was it then, and what is it now”.


Oh young people today, back in my day (late 80s) Dire Avengers was £2.50 for 5, the price jump to £2.99 was rough as meant I had to push bike it to the shop rather than have bus money spare, and I think exarchs came in packs of 2 for the same, although most of mine were regular grunts with different paint job or 'exarch' painted on the rim of the base, then £2.99 for 4 which was a bit cheeky as besides Reapers i think all aspects was minimum 5, don't recall blisters of 3


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They changed to blisters of 3 when they went to pewter. I got my Eldar army Christmas 1998 and distinctly remember having 6 man squads of both Banshees and Scorpions due to 2x blisters of each.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

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Hecaton wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's clearly got nothing to do with the fact they only price guide they have is for 1997 and they already highlighted the difficulty in getting concise historical prices from that time period or anything.


Mmmm, sounds like a copout. Either do the research or don't, don't try to obfuscate the issue.


He literally opened a box of Necromunda for a totally different video, which happened to have a price guide in it, and he decided to comment on it because it would have taken up too much space in the other video.

I mean, that's literally in the video.

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AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's clearly got nothing to do with the fact they only price guide they have is for 1997 and they already highlighted the difficulty in getting concise historical prices from that time period or anything.


Mmmm, sounds like a copout. Either do the research or don't, don't try to obfuscate the issue.


He literally opened a box of Necromunda for a totally different video, which happened to have a price guide in it, and he decided to comment on it because it would have taken up too much space in the other video.

I mean, that's literally in the video.


OK, so he's just lazy, got it. Stuff of Legends exists and can very easily be used to access catalogs with prices that include still available models to make a better, more accurate comparison with.

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Yeah the thing with that video is comparing metal to plastic from 1997 to now. Which frankly isn't good enough.

A more sensible check would be post '08 to now. And I know fine well the plastic kits have gone up monstrously.

When I was seriously into the hobby an Imperial Guard Sentinel was £12, 20 guardsmen was £15-18. A chimera was maybe £22? And more importantly, things like the battalion boxes gave you a hell of a lot of models for £50. That Ad Mech box I picked up from a 25% off RRP retailer was still £45 and I got 12 (!!) models for that. Can't even field a 500 point force. And that was the sole point of those boxes, to get people into the hobby by giving them an army to start playing.

That exact same sentinel model, which hasn't even changed is now £22.50? What?? Ludicrous.

It also doesn't take into account that a 2k point game has vastly changed in the number of models required. As the editions have progressed you need more models for a 2k game but there are less models per box. This to me is the biggest swizz.
And it's definitely on purpose. How are you meant to build a horde army without selling a kidney these days?

And above all else, they add in the larger models for the larger games which are a massive outlay. The £90 - 100 + outlay for a single miniature is eye watering.

The thing is GW know what they're about, the people running the company run it like a business. And they are clearly doing a good job. Like any garage start up company/band/tv show/internet star/misc other, once they get too big then you start to lose out. The personality becomes corporate as the capitalist machine drives us all down. It just sucks for us poor schmucks, especially if you don't have a lot of money to get by.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/24 21:48:29


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Sentinel kit has changed. Original had a choice of Multi-Laser or Heavy Flamer, with further weapons added as Hybrid Kits.

The current one offers all the weapon options, and if memory serves, leg articulation.

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Thanks for posting the video, it was quite interesting.

The only thing that bugged me is that he used the plague marine reinforcements box to get to 10 plague marines. That box was specifically announced to be a collector item and not meant for getting the best bang for your bucks, especially since we also had ETB plague marines until recently.

That said, I agree that it doesn't represent the price hikes that have been going on properly. I started getting into the game somewhere near the end of 4th/beginning of 5th and I still have invoices from wayland games were the exact same models we can buy today are almost 50% less expensive than they are now, which means that the price hike from 1997 was to 2020 is roughly the same as the price hike from 2010 to 2020.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 09:05:06


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