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 Crimson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
...why the frak are Blood Claws (and mounted/jump Blood Claws) now shooting on a 3+ rather than a 4+?

Space Wolves have finally gotten their marksmanship training on the level of all other chapters? Vanilla scouts are newbies at even earlier stage of training than the Blood Claws and have had BS 3+ for several editions now.

Aren't all the scouts in marine chapters all primaris now, after the crusade and the time jump there shouldn't be that many regular marines left alive, specialy not after what happened to most chapters before the primaris reinforcments. I doubt most regular marines in a constant war enviroment get to live much over 200, and most non primaris marines already were at least a few decades old when the rift happened. A chapter would have to be full blown no primaris to have regular scouts instead of the cawl abominations.

 Billagio wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
I was fully expecting a 1 GM or 1 NDK GM per army or 1 Cpt, and it did not happen.

It will though so be prepared.

Just wondering, did Necrons get a similar restriction?

Don't think so. There is a strict order of precedence for who can be Warlord, but that's it.
Silent King>
Phaeron> [Imhotek or an Overlord promoted by a Strat]
Overlord>
Lord>
pick whoever if you haven't got one of the above, but you don't have a Noble now and can't use command protocols at all.

Being a Blood Angels player (Shocking, I know), I do kinda hate that we lost a lot of our flavor as far as Psychic, Relic, and WL Traits are concerned.

That said, I do expect to be one of the first supplements released, so that's a salve and enough to keep me from being salty.

A few things I noticed.

Dante! THEY FINALLY GAVE HIM A +CP RULE! Why the oldest living imperial space marine, champion of literally thousands of campaigns. I'm pleased to see he's got 6 attacks base and the Axe Mortalis is pretty beastly now too. He'll wound most anything outside of a T:8 model on 2+ when he charges, and I am also intensely curious to see a list of the Epic Deed stratagems that he has access to once per game for free, and the built in death mask -1 to hit is pretty excellent

Speaking of golden armored heroes with an awesome -1 to hit aura now.

Sanguinary Guard got a good bit better in my opinion. Three attacks base is super tasty, with Assault Doctrine active, say with a Sanguinary High Priest warlord with them, they have five attacks each on the charge or if they get charged. Their Heirs of Azkaellon rule effects all attacks (shooting and melee), and their sword option being +1 strength now and a flat 2 damage vs. D3 is pretty tasty for wounding stuff on the charge. I foresee these guys putting in some solid work no matter what they wind up charging into.

The Sanguinor is a little less impressive in close combat, his sword not hitting quite as hard, but his new "SURPRISE MOTHER F*****" Heroic Intervention shenanigans is high-larious!

Death Company Dread Furioso fists are a little worse off, not being able to re-roll to-hit rolls, but the magna grapple being able to prevent a vehicle from falling back is actually pretty hilarious to me. Will still be using the angry washing machine here.

Death Company got WAY more expensive. The 10 man squad I usually run is 40(!) points more expensive. Double the wounds may be worth it, but there will be some playtesting done in short order. One other thing that kinda bugs me on this particular unit is that my two power fist and bolter death company marines are no longer legal. I'll have to swap the bolters back to bolt pistols to be true WYSIWYG. Easy enough to do, but annoying all the same.

Lastly, I'll be curious to see how the Chief Apothecary interaction works with the Sanguinary High Priests, as I would like to run one that isn't Corbulo and has a jump pack. Seems like a good value to run with Sanguinary Guard, for sure.

That's all I've got to add. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Breton wrote:
Dante is due to cross the Rubicon. Guilliman is in the neighborhood already. Mephiston already did. While Mephiston usually did fly around he didn't literally have a jump pack and a jump pack bodyguard, so they're probably holding off on Dante until they can release a fight based Primaris unit with him, because even though they gave Shrike some beatstick they also gave him some shooting, plus Blood Angel Smash Captain... Dante... they can't change him too far. Primaris has Melta now, so the Inferno pistol can cross over. They already had power axes from the SW kits. He's due. Just waiting on the bodyguard/synergy unit.

But like I said I think its more than just a new and improved Dante. If the Deed Strat was hidden because of Primaris Dante, and another Strat was hidden because of the PRimaris Fight Jump bodyguard there's still a THIRD strat that didn't make it into the Index. Mephy Njall, and Ezekiel all moved back to the "Librarius" Discipline. Maybe they stay there, maybe they all get a new chapter specific discipline in their supplements and the third strat is psychic based between the Libby Dreads, etc. Maybe the third strat is something else for something new. I dunno, but I feel like there's more coming for BA than a new Dante, if it's a new Dante.

Taking the BA/DA/SW books out of commission with these PDFs means any SC psykers from those books have to be redirected to the main SM discipline, or they don't get to cast any powers any more. Expect those to change when the supplements drop, as that's where you'll find their Chapter-specific disciplines.

Unless they stretch the release of new kits that we know to be coming so each supplement releases alongside one, we don't have even a hint of anything to come alongside these supplements - possible individual release of Ragnar (and maybe even Ghazghkull), and maybe the Space Wolf Lt from Tooth and Claw (I can't see him on the GW site under Space Wolves, anyway), but that's about it.

I will note that the SW Dread and BA Tactical squad are showing as Sold Out Online on the UK webstore - not sure if that signifies a reboxing or a retirement, at this point. They're both fairly new kits, though, as I recall - maybe 7th ed?

Voss wrote:
Guilliman wants Dante as an administrator/regent for Nihilius, so risking him in the Primaris pod doesn't make much sense.

There's an easy way around this, and they already pulled it with Ragnar - make it so they don't have a choice. Dante suffers some grievous wound that he won't survive without going to the operating table.

With the nerfs to SIA the Deathwatch rules can now be summarized as "worse Captain aura" (reroll 1s to hit Xenos), "worse Lieutenant aura" (Mission Tactics), and "turn your non-Intercessors into Intercessors" (SIA). It's very like just playing Codex: Space Marines with no Chapter Tactics.

I get the distinct impression that GW saw a problem interaction (SIA + Combat Doctrines) and decided to nerf the bit that wasn't a problem (SIA) instead of the bit that was (Combat Doctrines) because the bit that wasn't a problem was smaller, like when they nerf Forge World units because they forgot they existed when putting a broken stratagem in someone's Codex that can interact with them.

 Super Ready wrote:

Voss wrote:
Guilliman wants Dante as an administrator/regent for Nihilius, so risking him in the Primaris pod doesn't make much sense.

There's an easy way around this, and they already pulled it with Ragnar - make it so they don't have a choice. Dante suffers some grievous wound that he won't survive without going to the operating table.

I mean, sure, there's always some nonsense reason to throw someone into an 'emergency Rez' box.
But the entire thrust of his novel line was him being rejuvenated, defending his chapter(legion) Homeworld, and being Annointed as the guardian of imperium Nihilus, ready to face the challenges of chaos and xenos in the broken Galaxy.

There isn't any reason to undercut that by throwing him into a pod now, especially with a brand new pile of rules reflecting that current/future fluff, and not even a hint at a new model.

Karol wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
...why the frak are Blood Claws (and mounted/jump Blood Claws) now shooting on a 3+ rather than a 4+?

Space Wolves have finally gotten their marksmanship training on the level of all other chapters? Vanilla scouts are newbies at even earlier stage of training than the Blood Claws and have had BS 3+ for several editions now.

Aren't all the scouts in marine chapters all primaris now, after the crusade and the time jump there shouldn't be that many regular marines left alive, specialy not after what happened to most chapters before the primaris reinforcments. I doubt most regular marines in a constant war enviroment get to live much over 200, and most non primaris marines already were at least a few decades old when the rift happened. A chapter would have to be full blown no primaris to have regular scouts instead of the cawl abominations.

There is no such thing as a "Primaris" Scout. And SW Scouts are full marines (equivalent to a Tac marine / Grey Hunter / etc..) that chooses to don Scout Armor in a more solitary role.

Historically, codex wise, SW Blood Claws have always had similar stats to a SM Scout with the big exception is that they wear Power Armor instead of Scout Carapace. Back in 4th Edition (I think) Blood Claws had "SM Scout" stats (converted to 8th/9th parlance) something like: WS3+ BS4+ S3 T4 which reflected the fact that they were unfinished space marines.

From what I have gathered:
"Regular" Space Marine Chapter: human > given geneseed > transforms into superhuman > SM Scout > years of training/missions > choice to become SM or Primaris SM (as needed by the Chapter I guess).
Space Wolves: human > given geneseed > transforms into superhuman > Blood Claw > years of training/missions > choice to become Grey Hunter, SW Scout or Primaris SM.

So even in a full Primaris Chapter you still have SM Scouts, Scout Bikers & Land Speeder Storms; they only have the option to be Primaris after their Scout training is completed.

That's not the impression I got at all. I can see Space Wolves (and possibly Dark Angels) sticking to more traditional recruitment transformations, to a degree. But by and large, my understanding is that all new recruits would become Primaris once the Apothecarion is fully trained up on the process.
That does leave Scouts in a sticky situation - it would still certainly be possible for a Marine to undergo Scout training before they're allowed to join a battle or reserve company. I don't know how quick the Primaris process is, though. Is there a "bedding in / growth" period for the body, or is it much much quicker? (Bearing in mind that the Indomitus Crusade Primaris were only "ready to go" because Cawl already had them ready and trained up.)

There is no such thing as a "Primaris" Scout.

I know what you mean here, but. Shadowspear box says hi.

 Super Ready wrote:
That's not the impression I got at all. I can see Space Wolves (and possibly Dark Angels) sticking to more traditional recruitment transformations, to a degree. But by and large, my understanding is that all new recruits would become Primaris once the Apothecarion is fully trained up on the process.
That does leave Scouts in a sticky situation - it would still certainly be possible for a Marine to undergo Scout training before they're allowed to join a battle or reserve company. I don't know how quick the Primaris process is, though. Is there a "bedding in / growth" period for the body, or is it much much quicker? (Bearing in mind that the Indomitus Crusade Primaris were only "ready to go" because Cawl already had them ready and trained up.)

There is no such thing as a "Primaris" Scout.

I know what you mean here, but. Shadowspear box says hi.

The 2019 codex clearly states that the recruitment process still includes time as a scout, even post primaris.

 Billagio wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:
I was fully expecting a 1 GM or 1 NDK GM per army or 1 Cpt, and it did not happen.

It will though so be prepared.

Just wondering, did Necrons get a similar restriction?

No, ours is a little diffrent with the Royal Court Hierarchy on who must be the warlord, instead of an Overlord restriction per detachment.

Voss wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Voss wrote:
Guilliman wants Dante as an administrator/regent for Nihilius, so risking him in the Primaris pod doesn't make much sense.

There's an easy way around this, and they already pulled it with Ragnar - make it so they don't have a choice. Dante suffers some grievous wound that he won't survive without going to the operating table.

I mean, sure, there's always some nonsense reason to throw someone into an 'emergency Rez' box.
But the entire thrust of his novel line was him being rejuvenated, defending his chapter(legion) Homeworld, and being Annointed as the guardian of imperium Nihilus, ready to face the challenges of chaos and xenos in the broken Galaxy.

There isn't any reason to undercut that by throwing him into a pod now, especially with a brand new pile of rules reflecting that current/future fluff, and not even a hint at a new model.

That was the “happy” ending of one campaign. Now we’re sort of retconning as GW figured out the Indomitus Crusade could fluff out a couple different summer campaigns. Dante in a pod makes a potential story hook for the next campaign.

I think a few things:

Dante is going Primaris sooner rather than later. But not before we have fight jump Primaris.

They still have a lot of stuff they’ve teased that hasn’t released yet.

The BA Index was much “thinner” than any of the others suggesting a fairly hefty retooling.

I think Johnson is coming back sooner rather than later. I think it’s a summer campaign return not a codex return.

I think Dante will have to play peacemaker between Johnson and GMan after he gets out of the pod.

Breton wrote:
The BA Index was much “thinner” than any of the others suggesting a fairly hefty retooling.

I'm not so sure about this. We have a few unique units, sure, but aside from the Sanguinary Priest/Apothecary distinction, we don't have anything that outright replaces a standard Codex unit - they're all extras. Whereas Dark Angels have Deathwing and Ravenwing instead of normal Terminators and Bikes, they don't have Sternguard or Vanguard, and Space Wolves... well, let's not even go there.
By necessity, their Indexes were always going to be bigger than BA when using the standard Codex as a base.

That said - I'm still looking forward to Heavy Assault Inceptorcessors.

 Super Ready wrote:

Breton wrote:
The BA Index was much “thinner” than any of the others suggesting a fairly hefty retooling.

I'm not so sure about this. We have a few unique units, sure, but aside from the Sanguinary Priest/Apothecary distinction, we don't have anything that outright replaces a standard Codex unit - they're all extras. Whereas Dark Angels have Deathwing and Ravenwing instead of normal Terminators and Bikes, they don't have Sternguard or Vanguard, and Space Wolves... well, let's not even go there.
By necessity, their Indexes were always going to be bigger than BA when using the standard Codex as a base.

That said - I'm still looking forward to Heavy Assault Inceptorcessors.

You’re missing three strats. The other indexes each had 7. Even Wolves who don’t have a successor chapter relic strat got another strat to replace it. Data sheets are actually about even. BA are missing warlord traits, while DA have some for DW/RW. Ironically, and making this obviously a patchwork stopgap None of the named DW or RW characters can use them.

Karol wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
...why the frak are Blood Claws (and mounted/jump Blood Claws) now shooting on a 3+ rather than a 4+?

Space Wolves have finally gotten their marksmanship training on the level of all other chapters? Vanilla scouts are newbies at even earlier stage of training than the Blood Claws and have had BS 3+ for several editions now.

Aren't all the scouts in marine chapters all primaris now, after the crusade and the time jump there shouldn't be that many regular marines left alive, specialy not after what happened to most chapters before the primaris reinforcments. I doubt most regular marines in a constant war enviroment get to live much over 200, and most non primaris marines already were at least a few decades old when the rift happened. A chapter would have to be full blown no primaris to have regular scouts instead of the cawl abominations.

And why exactly cant a Scout be promoted to a Primaris Marine? They are still marines after all.

Wasn't too happy to see a lot of equivalent equipment not be updated, ala sentinel blades getting +1 strength (and perhaps guardian spears getting +2). I guess I can't complain too much though, considering how good Custodes are doing.

Sanguinary Guard are hilariously broken, being way too cheap for how absurdly deadly they are, and are even tankier in some situations due to having -1 to be hit in combat.

Also, Imperial Fist super doctrine being gutted is really gakky and not really justified, and I have never and probably will never play Imperial Fists. Really sucks to be a Fists fan right now.

 Blackie wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm a little worried that wolf preists aren't going to have their healing balms in this edition, and that'd be a sad thing to lose.

Their melee weapon got a nice upgrade though, now the model can actually fight decently.

They lost healing balms because new SW can have apothecaries, and a wolf priest was a mix between a chaplain and an apothecary, now just the SW chaplain. Too bad overall, wolf priest was my favorite SW HQ, auto take in any list I've played in 8th, now way less interesting.

the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

Doesnt mean it didint jump out at me.. or that the melta called fusion is apparently not really a melta..

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

Yes we know. Doesn't mean it's good for game balance to hand out free buffs doubling or more damage while leaving rest with their overcosted weapons.

Do you care about being white knight for GW defending every more or game balance? That's the question

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

Yes we know. Doesn't mean it's good for game balance to hand out free buffs doubling or more damage while leaving rest with their overcosted weapons.

Do you care about being white knight for GW defending every more or game balance? That's the question

No, the question is when GW says "we're updating all weapons of type X" why bitch whine and moan when you don't have any that are type X.

123ply wrote:


And why exactly cant a Scout be promoted to a Primaris Marine? They are still marines after all.

They haven't fluffed how Primaris Marines are created yet, AFAIK. I suspect they will go straight from recruit to Primaris though. I have a sneaking suspicion GW is going to/wants to slowly get rid of the All X Marine companies i.e. the All (Elite Slot) Veteran 1st companies, the all Scout 10th Companies, probably also the all (Fast Attack) Ravenwing.

Breton wrote:

123ply wrote:


And why exactly cant a Scout be promoted to a Primaris Marine? They are still marines after all.

They haven't fluffed how Primaris Marines are created yet, AFAIK. I suspect they will go straight from recruit to Primaris though. I have a sneaking suspicion GW is going to/wants to slowly get rid of the All X Marine companies i.e. the All (Elite Slot) Veteran 1st companies, the all Scout 10th Companies, probably also the all (Fast Attack) Ravenwing.

The primaris start as scouts. It's already explained in the old codex.

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

Doesnt mean it didint jump out at me.. or that the melta called fusion is apparently not really a melta..

well they you are going to be happy to hear that a nemezis thunder hammer isn't a thunder hammer either. Or incinertor flamer isn't a flamer either. And both are used by imperial armies.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm a little worried that wolf preists aren't going to have their healing balms in this edition, and that'd be a sad thing to lose.

Their melee weapon got a nice upgrade though, now the model can actually fight decently.

They lost healing balms because new SW can have apothecaries, and a wolf priest was a mix between a chaplain and an apothecary, now just the SW chaplain. Too bad overall, wolf priest was my favorite SW HQ, auto take in any list I've played in 8th, now way less interesting.

So SW have no way to heal TWC, WG termies or wulfen now? Yeah, very sad.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
the two bottom tier units from my codex got a longer reach flamer... This really stood out to me as balanced

GW said they'd be upgrading imperial made weapons with codex space marines. Are Craft World Eldar an Imperial faction?
No they're not.

Yes we know. Doesn't mean it's good for game balance to hand out free buffs doubling or more damage while leaving rest with their overcosted weapons.

Do you care about being white knight for GW defending every more or game balance? That's the question

No, the question is when GW says "we're updating all weapons of type X" why bitch whine and moan when you don't have any that are type X.

Also, Fusion having the same rule as Melta seems like an artifact from older editions with USRs. There's no reason that when they DO update fusion it has to have the same rule as Melta. Heck, now all Meltas don't even share the same rules. It's a different weapon, so they could use the opportunity to make it feel like a different weapon.

That's my suspicion, anyway.

Horla wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Horla wrote:
I was looking at the BA pdf and I noticed that Death Company Marines are Power Level 7 and 22 ppm but Death Company Intercessors are Power Level 6 and 24 ppm. Did they mix the power levels up for the two units? Death Company Intercessors can't take Jump Packs but the Marines need to add +1-2 Power Level to use Jump Packs so that doesn't explain it.

What's the melee weapon upgrades? Can death company intercessors take up stormshields and thunderhammers to everybody? As PL includes upgrades as well

Marines can take the same melee weapons as the intercessors, there differences in the ranged weapons but I kind of feel from eyeballing them that they kind of balance each other out with Intercessors being more of a shooty unit and Marines being the classic Death Company close combat monsters. Which is weird given that Intercessors naturally have one more attack than the Marines.

Normal DC can each take any upgrade they want. Intercessor DC have very limited upgrade options (1-2 pistols and a special melee weapon, but only if you didn't swap your squad to pistol/chainsword).

Karol wrote:

well they you are going to be happy to hear that a nemezis thunder hammer isn't a thunder hammer either. Or incinertor flamer isn't a flamer either. And both are used by imperial armies.

Oh yeah Grey Knights not getting updated wargear is pretty garbage no doubt.

yukishiro1 wrote:
BA and SW got completely gutted by the FAQs, BA in particular are virtually unplayable as they effectively lost all their stratagems, their warlord traits, and their psychic tree. No pregame move for death company, no on wings of fire, no 3d6 charge from deepstrike, do +d3 attacks on the charge, no flying mephiston or libby dread...pretty much everything that makes the faction distinctive got removed.

They look like they'll be decent once the supplement puts their rules back, but at the moment, they'd be both really gimp and really boring to play.

That BA wombo combo was BS and needed toning down. Nobody should've had to resort to such skew list (looking at you, 2x smash captain + 3x sang guards + 3x DC JP double vanguard lists) that spends +6 cp's on a single HQ unit to kill a 380 pt unit down in 1 turn.