How does Khorne have any followers, or even exist?

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**Selfcontrol**

It's old lore, but I like this "explanation" of Khorne.

Blood for the Blood God, says the death camp commandant while he signs his signature on a form condemning thousands to die.
Blood for the Blood God, says the serial killer while he inflicts the sacred eight wounds on his victim.
Blood for the Blood God, says the gladiator. as he prepares to walk into arena filled with a hundred thousand screaming fans.

Skulls for his Skull Throne, says the politician who has resolved to take a harder approach against the enemy in order to preserve the lives of his soldiers.
Skulls for his Skull Throne, says the mother who picks up an illegally obtained autopistol in an attempt to cleanse her neighborhood of the gangsters who plague it.
Skulls for his Skull Throne, says the child who has discovered that the only thing the bullies at the scholam understand is violence.

Khorne is the god of violent conflict. His voice whispers inspiration into the ears of sadistic madmen, and noble freedom fighters alike.

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows. A father who murders his child's abuser is as welcomed as a politician who orders mass genocide.

Khorne cares only that it flows. Whether it flows from a brawl between two equally skilled combatants, or from a defenseless victim who has fallen prey to a ruthless predator.

The Blood God corrupts the worst of us, but also the best of us. He is just as likely to convert a psychotic murderer as he is to convert an old war hero whose bitterness has lead him to believe "maybe if I can kill enough of the enemy we can finally have peace in this country again".

Khorne is the patron of knights and butchers, rapists and heroes, the honorable warrior and the despicable murderer.

Anytime a fist is thrown, or a shot is fired, if it is done with anger Khorne prospers. Ironically, a cadre of Space Marines exterminating a blood cult with extreme prejudice may fuel the Blood God far more than the cult ever could have.

Domination, conflict, violence. These are the Blood God's bywords, and any action committed in the service of those three feeds the Blood God immeasurably.

Khorne is the God of War in a galaxy that knows only war.

**NinthMusketeer**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
For example, Orks were mentioned upthread as being asexual and therefore unslaaneshi. That's... very wrong. Slaanesh is not the god of sex (though that is a huge part) but instead is the god of excess. And part of the reason orks are funny is they're so excessively violent... which feeds Khorne as well.

I didn't say they were unslaaneshi. What I was trying, and probably failed to say was that Slaanesh holds less sway over an average Ork than Khorne would. Apart from excessive violence which I would argue would feed Khorne more than Slaanesh, they don't lead particularly lavish or hedonistic lives. No more than any normal human. If Orks were to be represented by any Chaos God specifically, it would likely be Khorne even though aspects from other gods exist.

I would add that while it is fantastic for IRL jokes Slaanesh isn't really about sex. Sure, it's there, but it's just tacked on the side. IRL this ties into marketing and GW (wisely IMO) staying away from that field entirely. In-universe taking sex to extremes is... banal. It's such an 'obvious candidate' that taking it to excess is relatively normalized, it isn't as excessive. Compare to an excessive lust for extreme sound, or an obsession with the perfect visage, or pushing the limits of pain; things like that are unnatural and the product of conscious beings rather than pushing instinct. To an Ork, violence is a natural state. There is no excess. Even their specialists have a strong component of instinctive knowledge and it being an ingrained, normal thing. Speed freaks are really the only component of Ork society that would attract Slaanesh, given their obsession with an excess of speed. Or Stormboyz with an excess of discipline. Suffice it to say there is little in Orks for any Chaos god outside Khorne.

**Overread**

Dysartes wrote:
Overread wrote:For many Imperials its important to realise that Space Marines are like angles

Some of them are definitely obtuse, this is true.

Darn it! It's a good job I don't write a column for a local weekly village newspaper

**Brutus_Apex**

Darn it! It's a good job I don't write a column for a local weekly village newspaper

It's for the greater good.

**Matt Swain**

Orks generally don't find chaos appealing. They have gork and mork, who take care of all ork religious and spiritual needs quite nicely.

Plus some humans fall to chaos out of lost faith in the emperor, whose existence many can doubt and in whom one can lose faith in easily. To orks, gork and mork aren't matters of "faith", they're matters of fact. When gork tore a hole in space, reached out of the warp and pulled thrakka's spacehulk away from armageddon that was proof the ork gods existed. When thrakke claimed to be a prophet of the ork gods and tore his way out of a giant tyranid monster who swallowed him whole that whole ork planet knew he was a prophet of their gods.

I doubt any ork even thought to wonder if his gods were real or not, he just knows that are.

**Not Online!!!**

Matt Swain wrote:
Orks generally don't find chaos appealing. They have gork and mork, who take care of all ork religious and spiritual needs quite nicely.

Plus some humans fall to chaos out of lost faith in the emperor, whose existence many can doubt and in whom one can lose faith in easily. To orks, gork and mork aren't matters of "faith", they're matters of fact. When gork tore a hole in space, reached out of the warp and pulled thrakka's spacehulk away from armageddon that was proof the ork gods existed. When thrakke claimed to be a prophet of the ork gods and tore his way out of a giant tyranid monster who swallowed him whole that whole ork planet knew he was a prophet of their gods.

I doubt any ork even thought to wonder if his gods were real or not, he just knows that are.

Stormboyz...
you know, the wierdos amongst orkz, yeah, those did indeed once worship Khorne. Granted that is old but considering that even recent codex entries described them as wierdos and obssessed with minutia of war and discipline...

**Esmer**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Orks generally don't find chaos appealing. They have gork and mork, who take care of all ork religious and spiritual needs quite nicely.

Plus some humans fall to chaos out of lost faith in the emperor, whose existence many can doubt and in whom one can lose faith in easily. To orks, gork and mork aren't matters of "faith", they're matters of fact. When gork tore a hole in space, reached out of the warp and pulled thrakka's spacehulk away from armageddon that was proof the ork gods existed. When thrakke claimed to be a prophet of the ork gods and tore his way out of a giant tyranid monster who swallowed him whole that whole ork planet knew he was a prophet of their gods.

I doubt any ork even thought to wonder if his gods were real or not, he just knows that are.

Stormboyz...
you know, the wierdos amongst orkz, yeah, those did indeed once worship Khorne. Granted that is old but considering that even recent codex entries described them as wierdos and obssessed with minutia of war and discipline...

If I'm not mistaken, Khornate Stormboys were a splinter faction, not the norm. Stormboys in general had the "stereotypical Nazi" obsession with drills and uniforms and whatnot, down to their vaguely German WW2-esque models. .

**Pacific**

Hey guys.. am so sorry, my OP was meant to be totally tongue-in-cheek. An attempt at humour, obviously completely missed the mark!
Was hoping there might be a few Legends of the Painty Men podcast fans to take me up on it.

I thought the description of the Khorne version of The Watchtower magazine would have given that away but couldn't have been blatant enough! Thinking about that, I guess what the result would be if you tried to engage those guys in debate while they are stood at your door (I assume you would probably just take it and promise to read it later, then definitely not answer next time someone with massive appendages on their head comes to the door).

Anyway it has turned into a kind of interesting (very serious!) discussion of the perks of each of the chaos gods so I will slowly reverse out..

PS - Slaanesh is definitely a lot about sex, just because GW are trying to turn it into PG-13 they can't erase 20+ years of lore just like that, I'm going to wheel out my 90s topless, very sexy, daemonettes and they are completely legal miniatures to use, thank you very much

**CEO Kasen**

Pacific wrote:
PS - Slaanesh is definitely a lot about sex, just because GW are trying to turn it into PG-13 they can't erase 20+ years of lore just like that, I'm going to wheel out my 90s topless, very sexy, daemonettes and they are completely legal miniatures to use, thank you very much

Hear hear. I'll agree Slaanesh is about many things, but I feel like downplaying the role of sex in Slaanesh too hard is every bit as banal as making sex the sole focus.

On topic: My question isn't "How do people come to follow Khorne" - that much seems clear enough. But if the second part of the question - "How do they stay following Khorne for long enough to form substantial numbers given that Khorne on Khorne action pleases the Blood God just as much as any other kind?" - was answered in this thread, I missed it. Wouldn't they kill each other off pretty fast and need a constant influx of members to be anything more than a self-defeating threat? What keeps them from turning on each other more than occasionally, or is that down to the Martial Honor thing?

**Arcanis161**

CEO Kasen wrote:
Pacific wrote:
PS - Slaanesh is definitely a lot about sex, just because GW are trying to turn it into PG-13 they can't erase 20+ years of lore just like that, I'm going to wheel out my 90s topless, very sexy, daemonettes and they are completely legal miniatures to use, thank you very much

Hear hear. I'll agree Slaanesh is about many things, but I feel like downplaying the role of sex in Slaanesh too hard is every bit as banal as making sex the sole focus.

On topic: My question isn't "How do people come to follow Khorne" - that much seems clear enough. But if the second part of the question - "How do they stay following Khorne for long enough to form substantial numbers given that Khorne on Khorne action pleases the Blood God just as much as any other kind?" - was answered in this thread, I missed it. Wouldn't they kill each other off pretty fast and need a constant influx of members to be anything more than a self-defeating threat? What keeps them from turning on each other more than occasionally, or is that down to the Martial Honor thing?

Well, who's easier to kill, a raging berserker who intends to do as much damage to you as possible, or a regular joe?

I do believe they fight each other a lot, mostly due to proximity, but I think they know more blood can be spilled by targeting others.

**solkan**

CEO Kasen wrote:
But if the second part of the question - "How do they stay following Khorne for long enough to form substantial numbers given that Khorne on Khorne action pleases the Blood God just as much as any other kind?" - was answered in this thread, I missed it. Wouldn't they kill each other off pretty fast and need a constant influx of members to be anything more than a self-defeating threat? What keeps them from turning on each other more than occasionally, or is that down to the Martial Honor thing?

Just because someone has joined a cult of Khorne (or otherwise become a follower of Khorne) doesn't mean they spend every moment of every day doing things in Khorne's service. The regular follower is still going to get hungry and need to eat, and is still normally going to be subject to fear and leadership.

So you still get situations where a group of like minded individuals discover each other and one of them gets the others to follow along because they've got ideas. "Wait, and train, and the upcoming fight will be glorious." Would Khorne be pleased if the entire group just slaughtered each other right away? Sure. But that doesn't erase each person's reasons for becoming followers. (Or, rather, it takes time for a person to lose sight of their reasons for becoming a follower and just losing themselves to what the Chaos god wants...)

Fight Club is probably a decent parallel for a minor Khorne cult.

**Argive**

"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill hundreds and you are a hero. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a God"

Khorne doesn't care as long as you kill and keep on killing.

**locarno24**

You could just as easily ask how a Tzeenchian cults members have any time to plot against the Imperium rather than one another.

Generally both a degree of martial honour and a strong leader imposing their will, but most fundamentally......Khorne draws recruits through their anger, and cultists are angry enough to turn to armed rebellion and murder.

Most of the recruits to a given cult in a given place are probably angry at the same thing. (An occupying army, a corrupt governing family, the adeptus terra's incompetence and lack of empathy, etc.), it gives them common ground- they're hoping to use the blood God's strength to achieve *their* goals, at least to start with.

It's only later down the path that massacre becomes an end in and of itself.

**Pacific**

CEO Kasen wrote:
Pacific wrote:
PS - Slaanesh is definitely a lot about sex, just because GW are trying to turn it into PG-13 they can't erase 20+ years of lore just like that, I'm going to wheel out my 90s topless, very sexy, daemonettes and they are completely legal miniatures to use, thank you very much

Hear hear. I'll agree Slaanesh is about many things, but I feel like downplaying the role of sex in Slaanesh too hard is every bit as banal as making sex the sole focus.

On topic: My question isn't "How do people come to follow Khorne" - that much seems clear enough. But if the second part of the question - "How do they stay following Khorne for long enough to form substantial numbers given that Khorne on Khorne action pleases the Blood God just as much as any other kind?" - was answered in this thread, I missed it. Wouldn't they kill each other off pretty fast and need a constant influx of members to be anything more than a self-defeating threat? What keeps them from turning on each other more than occasionally, or is that down to the Martial Honor thing?

There was a really funny (to me) Graham McNeil 40k short story (I forget the name) where some guy was fighting a Khorne champion in gladitorial combat. The Khorne guy stabbed himself in the neck so he would bleed out if he didn't kill his opponent in time. The problem I have with this is, going on what we know about survival of the fittest and passing on your genes, I don't think that's the best way to go about it.

The Khorne guy was going to die no matter what! Were there any other people watching those games thinking "Ok awesome I've got to join Khorne now"

locarno24 wrote:You could just as easily ask how a Tzeenchian cults members have any time to plot against the Imperium rather than one another.

But Tzeentch have got some brains and idea of self preservation right? I view them fighting the imperium as playing an FPS where there is no Punkbuster program running - they are shooting through walls, immune to fire and just spend all their time just typing "lol, cry more" while the Imperium players are rage-quitting.
Khorne warriors couldn't think that far ahead - they would just see another guy with massive head appendages or red-painted leather, point at each other, and then start hacking at each other until one was dead. Then the winner would probably cut his own head off because there hadn't been enough blood yet.

**Deadnight**

solkan wrote:

Just because someone has joined a cult of Khorne (or otherwise become a follower of Khorne) doesn't mean they spend every moment of every day doing things in Khorne's service. The regular follower is still going to get hungry and need to eat, and is still normally going to be subject to fear and leadership.

I dunno man,

I mean when it comes to eating, best way is for your meat to be raw. Blood for the blood god, and all that.

And when you are sitting on the throne afterwords dealing with the other end of eating all that raw meat, you still get to cry out, amongst bursts of your own body's apocalyptic fury 'blood for the blood god!'

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows after all.

**Argive**

Deadnight wrote:
solkan wrote:

Just because someone has joined a cult of Khorne (or otherwise become a follower of Khorne) doesn't mean they spend every moment of every day doing things in Khorne's service. The regular follower is still going to get hungry and need to eat, and is still normally going to be subject to fear and leadership.

I dunno man,

I mean when it comes to eating, best way is for your meat to be raw. Blood for the blood god, and all that.

And when you are sitting on the throne afterwords dealing with the other end of eating all that raw meat, you still get to cry out, amongst bursts of your own body's apocalyptic fury 'blood for the blood god!'

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows after all.

Thats grim in the dark....

**locarno24**

Pacific wrote:

locarno24 wrote:You could just as easily ask how a Tzeenchian cults members have any time to plot against the Imperium rather than one another.

But Tzeentch have got some brains and idea of self preservation right? I view them fighting the imperium as playing an FPS where there is no Punkbuster program running - they are shooting through walls, immune to fire and just spend all their time just typing "lol, cry more" while the Imperium players are rage-quitting.
Khorne warriors couldn't think that far ahead - they would just see another guy with massive head appendages or red-painted leather, point at each other, and then start hacking at each other until one was dead. Then the winner would probably cut his own head off because there hadn't been enough blood yet.

Not necessarily. Not every khorne follower is uncontrolled or lost to rage utterly, and plenty of them are capable of tactical thought - at least before the fighting starts.

At a simple level, NOT massacring the mortal slaves in the ship's crew allows a world waters warband to reach a battle worth their time and claim far more - and far more impressive - skulls for khorne. Remember that whilst khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, he also cares intensely about the quality of your opponents - the skull throne is made explicitly of *worthy* skulls.

Khorne marines are bezerkers in a literal sense - having to fight a monumental rage and killer instinct - but they're not all dumb, any more than all Tzeenchian followers are smart and/or magically gifted - plenty are utterly crazy and mutated to the point spawndom is when, not if. For every just-as-planned Ahriman there are a thousand pants on head insane lunatics like the scourged

**cody.d.**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
For example, Orks were mentioned upthread as being asexual and therefore unslaaneshi. That's... very wrong. Slaanesh is not the god of sex (though that is a huge part) but instead is the god of excess. And part of the reason orks are funny is they're so excessively violent... which feeds Khorne as well.

I didn't say they were unslaaneshi. What I was trying, and probably failed to say was that Slaanesh holds less sway over an average Ork than Khorne would. Apart from excessive violence which I would argue would feed Khorne more than Slaanesh, they don't lead particularly lavish or hedonistic lives. No more than any normal human. If Orks were to be represented by any Chaos God specifically, it would likely be Khorne even though aspects from other gods exist.

I'm not sure, Slaanesh also has a lot to do with obsessions. Needing that rush from your chosen vice. Needing more and more until your senses dull. (IE: Noise marines as an example.)

And orks typify that to the extreme. Tankbustas are addicted to explosions and killing things bigger than them, Burnaboyz need to set things on fire and will take any excuse to do so, Speed Freaks are an entire subculture addicted to going fast regardless of how unsafe it may be for the driver. Pretty much every clan and unit type will revolve around one obsession or addiction in some way or another.

Then again there is the Deffskullz, all about looting, stealing, changing, scheming. Yeah greed would be associated with Slaanesh but plotting and scheming is also very much Tzeentch's deal.

Swing over to Snakebites and there's probably the strongest ties to Nurgle. Growths, life, cycles. A lot of the creatures would likely have diseases only held at bay by the ork physiology but are probably violently contagious to any other species. Not to mention the sheer amount of fecal matter a garg squiggoth probably leaves behind them.

While orks seem to have a natural resilience to chaos (And tyranid infection) they do seem to be very much influenced, or at the least their culture would put off a massive amount of energy for the chaos gods much like humans would.

But yeah, somewhere between Khorne and Slaanesh is where i'd say orks sit.