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Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


Maybe its armor is decayed from being so old.


Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?


I dunno. I think it got spammed too much and so *whack with the stick*. I personally find the odds of the Imperium keeping anything running that long to be basically zero, so in my mind they should be in 40K at all. Except maybe for chaos. Of course I don't understand how they keep anything running, either.


Dropping them to WS/BS 3+ and nerfing the invuln was enough.
And chaos still has forgeworlds with the original stolen STCs to build them. Also warpsmits have the heresy-era knowledge to maintain them.


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I prefer them being more in line with other dreads. T7 is fine. 5++ is still pretty good defense in 9th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/14 21:16:23


 
   
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In My Lab

SecondTime wrote:
I prefer them being more in line with other dreads. T7 is fine. 5++ is still pretty good defense in 9th.
It's really not.

Are Leviathans still a 2+? or did they drop to a 3+? Because if they're still at a 2+, you need AP-4 to make that invuln matter.

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At t7, they are actually a viable melta target. As they should have always been. T8 4++ was insane.
   
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In My Lab

SecondTime wrote:
At t7, they are actually a viable melta target. As they should have always been. T8 4++ was insane.
I'll agree to that, but they really should be T8. They're pretty chonky.

Charge 'em the appropriate price for their T8, and it'll be fine.

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Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually. But i think very few imperial units should have an invuln, if any.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/14 21:57:11


 
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.
   
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Loadout optimisation has changed imo, and I really do think one CC and one gun is the way to go, as they get a big chunk of attacks now, and it helps kep their cost down. 3 HKMs, 2 volkites, a gun and a fist clock in around 255pts. Solid.
   
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Mysterious Techpriest






SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.


yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.

I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM

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Spoletta wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
broxus wrote:
After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


6 eradicators will one round it.

It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.

To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.


Comparing anything to eradicators is silly, but since he gave wrong numbers in the first post, I was correcting them.

He didn't give the wrong numbers. He appears to have been using the standard assault melta rifles for his numbers, you appear to be using the optional heavy meltas.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Spoiler:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.


yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.

I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM

Actually csm Leviathans are tougher against melta, lascannons, and other AT type weapons at T7 with Relentless Hatred than they were at T8. This is only a nerf for loyalists, who lost their 4++ against shooting attacks. So now csm and loyalists are actually getting the same thing for the same price. I approve of this.
   
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Right, i forgot they gained duty eternal.

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Yeah, I forgot too. T8 and -1 damage would have been too much, I think. At a minimum, you'd have to charge a ton of pts.
   
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SecondTime wrote:
Yeah, I forgot too. T8 and -1 damage would have been too much, I think. At a minimum, you'd have to charge a ton of pts.

So does that apply to the Ironclad as well? Or are you still biased against any model made of resin?
   
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The ironclad should be T7 as well. Resin and FW sucks, but bringing them in line makes them a lot easier to tolerate.
   
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Right now if you compare a Redemptor Dreadnaught vs a Levitation Dreadnaught

-It takes 12x eradicators melta shots to kill a Redemptor
-It takes 27x eradicators melta shots to kill a Levithan with smokescreen.

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T4 unbuffed
-14.37 vs 9.611 = 50% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T5 target unbuffed
-11.56 vs 7.63 = 52% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T7 target unbuffed
-10.96 vs 6.96 =57% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T8 target unbuffed
-8.74 vs 6.37 = 37% more damage

Remember you get all this extra dakka and defend for 35pts (grav-bombards) which amounts to 19% extra cost, 1 CP, ans loss of some close combat.

Seems pretty clear to me that the Leviathan is still an excellent value for 220pts.
   
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Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).

I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).

I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.

I'd guess it will be errated the other way around, with loyalist grav flux bombards dropping to 18 range, as grav flux bombards were 18 range in 8th. Just another typo. Email already sent to gw.
   
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broxus wrote:
Right now if you compare a Redemptor Dreadnaught vs a Levitation Dreadnaught

-It takes 12x eradicators melta shots to kill a Redemptor
-It takes 27x eradicators melta shots to kill a Levithan with smokescreen.

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T4 unbuffed
-14.37 vs 9.611 = 50% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T5 target unbuffed
-11.56 vs 7.63 = 52% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T7 target unbuffed
-10.96 vs 6.96 =57% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T8 target unbuffed
-8.74 vs 6.37 = 37% more damage

Remember you get all this extra dakka and defend for 35pts (grav-bombards) which amounts to 19% extra cost, 1 CP, ans loss of some close combat.

Seems pretty clear to me that the Leviathan is still an excellent value for 220pts.


I’m not disagreeing that the Leviathan is a good deal, but let’s remember Smokescreen also costs a CP. I do think the Leviathan is probably worth it, though. I mean, I’d probably still take it if it stunk, because I absolutely love the model. One of the best Space Marine models, and a fantastic kit to build and pose.
   
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Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.

Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/16 23:17:50


 
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.

Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.

It's my understanding that anything included in "this unit is equipped with" section of the datasheet is included in the basic cost of the unit. All of the various Sicarans say "A Chaos Sicaran is equipped with: heavy bolter; <insert weapon specific to this unit >", then the two optional heavy bolters are listed in the "WARGEAR OPTIONS" section of the datasheet. So the standard hull mounted heavy bolter is included in the base price, if that's what you're asking.

There are, of course, more typos that complicate this. The description for the Stormblade's basic equipment says it includes 2 heavy bolters and two lascannons, which would seem to describe its sponsons. The wargear options then say it can be equipped with two additional heavy bolters and two additional lascannons, which would seem to denote taking two more sponsons. But only the heavy bolters are listed in the units points. Another typo. If its base price includes the standard two sponsons its also significantly cheaper than a Baneblade with two sponsons, at 420 PPM vs a two sponson Baneblade at 550 PPM. Possible typo or hopefully a sign that Baneblades will be getting cheaper soon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 00:45:06


 
   
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Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

dominuschao wrote:
Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.

Yeah, can't say that I like the new points system. It can be a bit confusing.
   
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Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.


If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.

18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.

Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/18 06:22:11


 
   
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broxus wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.


If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.

18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.

Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.

It's not a nerf if the 24 range for loyalists is a typo, which it most likely is. They were 18 in 8th, and they're 18 in HH. And what do you mean "24 range is tough to use"? That's the most common range for ranged weapons in the game.
   
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24 inches has been bumped to 30 or 36 by primaris however. Because they have to be marines but better at every stat.
Gavflux bombards will probably go down to 18 inch range though.
   
 
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