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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
Anyone think that Macharius should get it for Guard?


You mean the guy who's been dead for 800 years in the current 40k timeline? Sure. Sebastian Thor and Tabor Ludovica could probably get Supreme Commander too if they weren't too dead to get minis. How 'bout Malcador?

Well, if we get to nominate dead guys, I vote SEVATAR!


People don't seem to have an issue nominating dead guys. I mean, aren't Eldrad and Ghazkull both dead? And I KNOW that Aun'va is dead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 14:53:19


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Right behind you.

Ghazghkull's head was reattached to his body. It's the whole reason that Ragnar went after him again.
Eldrad's death has been retconned.

Additionally, their 'deaths' still would be relatively recent. Macharius is looooooong dead, same with Gaunt.
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
Anyone think that Macharius should get it for Guard?


You mean the guy who's been dead for 800 years in the current 40k timeline? Sure. Sebastian Thor and Tabor Ludovica could probably get Supreme Commander too if they weren't too dead to get minis. How 'bout Malcador?


Does their death matter as 40k games take place in different eras?

 Jidmah wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I agree with alextroy’s list to. However I may have added Abaddon


and Cawl proably works for it too, Cawl in fact strikes me as a good canidate. people are too busy looking for ways to argue who should be added because they wanna give everyone "their fair share at a free HQ slot" but thats not what supreme command is for. supreme command is for people like Gulliman, Ghaz, Shadowsun etc whom are all legitimate leadership chocies for an entire faction no matter what chapter tactics you choose to run


Agree with this. The thing people are overlooking is that these Supreme Commanders go to battle without even a single member of their own sub-faction being present.
IMO this is what disqualifies Logan, Dante, Helbrecht, Shrike, Farsight, Huron and so on from the role. They would be in command, but they would never go to battle without bringing their own guys, assuming their retinue would allow them to go alone in the first place. This also is why I'm unsure about Abaddon getting it, if he went to lead an army of World Eaters or Emperor's Children by himself, I'm pretty sure he would end up dead.

And then there is also the possibility that GW reserved this keyword just for centerpiece models and gave it little thought outside of that


Agree with all of this - esp the last sentance

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 Jidmah wrote:

This also is why I'm unsure about Abaddon getting it, if he went to lead an army of World Eaters or Emperor's Children by himself, I'm pretty sure he would end up dead.

And then there is also the possibility that GW reserved this keyword just for centerpiece models and gave it little thought outside of that


Didn't abadon waged war on the BA destroying their heavy support company and defiling all the gene seed of the marines in that chapter, even after other companies tried to get them back?

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I'm fairly sure that's both wrong and irrelevant.

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 alextroy wrote:
I think people are seriously over estimating the number of Supreme Commander characters GW will put out. I expect the following:

Robute Guilliman and any Loyalist Primarchs for Imperial
Magnus, Mortarion, and any Chaos Primarchs for Chaos
Shadownsun for Tau
Ghazghkull Thraka for Orks
The Silent King for Necrons


If Vect ever gets a model, he'll be a Supreme Commander.
If you stretch the concept, maybe Eldrad.

But that's it. The detachment isn't there to allow you to add an additional HQ to your list. It exist for those characters that transcend a particular faction or subfaction and would take charge of any situation they find themselves in.



That’s likely the original intent, but it does give a “free” HQ/LOW slot, so it’s just a matter of time until complaints about unbalanced require them to open it up a lot more.

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 Mr Morden wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
Anyone think that Macharius should get it for Guard?


You mean the guy who's been dead for 800 years in the current 40k timeline? Sure. Sebastian Thor and Tabor Ludovica could probably get Supreme Commander too if they weren't too dead to get minis. How 'bout Malcador?


Does their death matter as 40k games take place in different eras?...


It matters enough to GW for them to charge me extra CP to use my resin minis. Or not make rules for them.

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The thing people are overlooking is that these Supreme Commanders go to battle without even a single member of their own sub-faction being present.
IMO this is what disqualifies Logan, Dante, Helbrecht, Shrike, Farsight, Huron and so on from the role. They would be in command, but they would never go to battle without bringing their own guys, assuming their retinue would allow them to go alone in the first place. This also is why I'm unsure about Abaddon getting it, if he went to lead an army of World Eaters or Emperor's Children by himself, I'm pretty sure he would end up dead.


I don't think that's the right metric. By this logic, even the Silent King shouldn't have it. It doesn't make sense.

I think it should be reserved for extremely high-ranking leaders who lead more than JUST their "own guys", but the other way around doesn't seem logical to me. I mean Abbadon isn't likely to appear in a major battle without Black Legion marines nearby, but he also commands what is (arguably) one of the largest galaxy spanning armies in all of Chaos. Same for Huron except you replace the "legion" keyword. If you wanted to keep it to no more than 1 per codex, then I would say Abbadon gets the nod, but to say even he doesn't deserve it?

Ditto Dante who now commands half the Imperium. Not sure how that's anything but a Supreme Commander?

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure that's both wrong and irrelevant.


But it says so in the chaos space marine codex. That he led a warband of just bezerkers, wiped out a devastator company , assault companies tried to take the bodies back, but were beaten back and the gene seed of BA was defiled and that is why BA hate Abadon more.

in the w40k wiki it is called the "ghost war", it was the 7th of abadons black crusades and he did led a pure khorn berzerker force against the BA in it .

And in the sister codex it is mentioned that space sharks helped to stop the crusade. So it is right, and I don't see why would abadon have problems with taking leadership of a khorn berzerker force from the WE legion, if he led one made out of berzerkers from other legions including WE already.

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I would love to see a big supreme commander type character for each faction/army. They would definitely have to be people with BIG pull and influence, hence your primarchs and silent king. Shadowsun, Dante, Ghaz, Abaddon should totally get it, eldar are a bit muddled but i can see vect getting it for DE if they made him a new model. Additionally I'd love to see it go to the swarm lord or a cooler newer super swarmlord type model. Also...a bit of a pipe dream, I would love to see a new supreme commander type model for Guard, maybe bring back creed or come up with a new character and put them on a cool command tank.

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Jidmah wrote:
Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
No wolves on Fenris wrote:
I agree with alextroy’s list to. However I may have added Abaddon


and Cawl proably works for it too, Cawl in fact strikes me as a good canidate. people are too busy looking for ways to argue who should be added because they wanna give everyone "their fair share at a free HQ slot" but thats not what supreme command is for. supreme command is for people like Gulliman, Ghaz, Shadowsun etc whom are all legitimate leadership chocies for an entire faction no matter what chapter tactics you choose to run


Agree with this. The thing people are overlooking is that these Supreme Commanders go to battle without even a single member of their own sub-faction being present.
IMO this is what disqualifies Logan, Dante, Helbrecht, Shrike, Farsight, Huron and so on from the role. They would be in command, but they would never go to battle without bringing their own guys, assuming their retinue would allow them to go alone in the first place. This also is why I'm unsure about Abaddon getting it, if he went to lead an army of World Eaters or Emperor's Children by himself, I'm pretty sure he would end up dead.

And then there is also the possibility that GW reserved this keyword just for centerpiece models and gave it little thought outside of that

Thank. You. Jidmah. Not all Legions or warbands readily bend the knee to Abaddon. The Night Lords didn't even show up for the group photo of all the Legions that participated in Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade in the Eye of Terror campaign book, instead Abby had to get a bunch of renegades to stand in for them, and Talos flipped him and his patron gods the bird to their faces. The Legions aren't known for playing well together.

Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure that's both wrong and irrelevant.


But it says so in the chaos space marine codex. That he led a warband of just bezerkers, wiped out a devastator company , assault companies tried to take the bodies back, but were beaten back and the gene seed of BA was defiled and that is why BA hate Abadon more.

in the w40k wiki it is called the "ghost war", it was the 7th of abadons black crusades and he did led a pure khorn berzerker force against the BA in it .

And in the sister codex it is mentioned that space sharks helped to stop the crusade. So it is right, and I don't see why would abadon have problems with taking leadership of a khorn berzerker force from the WE legion, if he led one made out of berzerkers from other legions including WE already.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Angels#The_Dregs_of_Old_Night

Hounds of Abaddon: Black Legion Khorne Berzerkers. Not World Eaters. Assuming that all Khorne Berzerkers are World Eaters is like assuming all devastators are Imperial Fists or all assault marines are Blood Angels.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
Anyone think that Macharius should get it for Guard?


You mean the guy who's been dead for 800 years in the current 40k timeline? Sure. Sebastian Thor and Tabor Ludovica could probably get Supreme Commander too if they weren't too dead to get minis. How 'bout Malcador?

Well, if we get to nominate dead guys, I vote SEVATAR!


At this point i almost wouldnt even care if they broke the lore if it meant we got night legion specific units. Give me terror troops already :(

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Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure that's both wrong and irrelevant.


But it says so in the chaos space marine codex. That he led a warband of just bezerkers, wiped out a devastator company , assault companies tried to take the bodies back, but were beaten back and the gene seed of BA was defiled and that is why BA hate Abadon more.

in the w40k wiki it is called the "ghost war", it was the 7th of abadons black crusades and he did led a pure khorn berzerker force against the BA in it .

And in the sister codex it is mentioned that space sharks helped to stop the crusade. So it is right, and I don't see why would abadon have problems with taking leadership of a khorn berzerker force from the WE legion, if he led one made out of berzerkers from other legions including WE already.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_Angels#The_Dregs_of_Old_Night


I see. Those clearly were Black Legion Berzerkers though, which have sworn loyalty to Abaddon. And there is little Abaddon, who proclaimed himself warmaster and successor to Horus, could do so the BA would hate him any more than they already do.

My point remains - Abaddon leading an army of WE alone, without a retinue of Black Legionnaires to accompany him, would probably end up dead. Many aren't exactly a fan of him, and plenty others are just insane enough to try and kill him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think that's the right metric. By this logic, even the Silent King shouldn't have it. It doesn't make sense.

Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know, all lords, independent of their dynasty, bend their knees to the silent king.

I think it should be reserved for extremely high-ranking leaders who lead more than JUST their "own guys", but the other way around doesn't seem logical to me. I mean Abbadon isn't likely to appear in a major battle without Black Legion marines nearby, but he also commands what is (arguably) one of the largest galaxy spanning armies in all of Chaos. Same for Huron except you replace the "legion" keyword. If you wanted to keep it to no more than 1 per codex, then I would say Abbadon gets the nod, but to say even he doesn't deserve it?

Ditto Dante who now commands half the Imperium. Not sure how that's anything but a Supreme Commander?


The mechanic's only use for HQ models is to have a certain unit lead armies despite not sharing a faction keyword with them. All the chapter masters and chaos lords can lead an army of random imperium/chaos stuff just fine, as long as they bring some of their chapter/legion along.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/19 00:00:31


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I would amend my list to add Warmaster Abbadon, but that's about it. GW isn't into parity, they are into story. Don't expect a Supreme Commander, Lord of War, or Aircraft just because somebody else has one.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think that's the right metric. By this logic, even the Silent King shouldn't have it. It doesn't make sense.

Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know, all lords, independent of their dynasty, bend their knees to the silent king.


Not at all. Certain lords (like that Flayed One King) probably wouldn't even be approached, and if they were - well, Flayed Ones are basically Necron World Eaters in terms of their like for other necrons and their sanity. There's also the Empire of the Severed, which is being run by a computer program - the necron personalities have all been destroyed. The computer probably doesn't even care about the Silent King except as a historical footnote in its records, if any history records survived at all. Destroyer cults, as well, probably don't appreciate his return - while less insane than Flayed Ones in absolute terms, they're not at all reliable nor do they respect nobles who are not Destroyers (hence why Nobles can't buff them, I suspect).
   
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Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know, all lords, independent of their dynasty, bend their knees to the silent king.


As Un it mentioned, not all do bend their knee to him, but I was more referring to this:

The thing people are overlooking is that these Supreme Commanders go to battle without even a single member of their own sub-faction being present.


That's quite the odd metric for this and I think it's backwards. Sure, they MIGHT go to battle with no members of their own faction and/or sub-faction present (unlikely in the extreme when it comes to the Silent King), but I think the better metric is that they regularly lead armies of significant enough size, that may ALSO include elements outside their own faction or sub-faction. So for example, under your metric, Dante - the commander of literally about half of what is currently the largest galaxy spanning mega-faction in the game, wouldn't be a Supreme Commander because he brings Sang Guard with him. This doesn't make sense to me. Certainly you wouldn't want more than 1 or 2 per-codex, but you can't tell me Abbadon and Dante don't qualify.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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A commander leading other armies in addition to his own doesn't need any special rules to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think that's the right metric. By this logic, even the Silent King shouldn't have it. It doesn't make sense.

Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know, all lords, independent of their dynasty, bend their knees to the silent king.


Not at all. Certain lords (like that Flayed One King) probably wouldn't even be approached, and if they were - well, Flayed Ones are basically Necron World Eaters in terms of their like for other necrons and their sanity. There's also the Empire of the Severed, which is being run by a computer program - the necron personalities have all been destroyed. The computer probably doesn't even care about the Silent King except as a historical footnote in its records, if any history records survived at all. Destroyer cults, as well, probably don't appreciate his return - while less insane than Flayed Ones in absolute terms, they're not at all reliable nor do they respect nobles who are not Destroyers (hence why Nobles can't buff them, I suspect).


Those aren't subfactions though, are they? They are more like Gretchin for Orks, Servitors for Marines or Kroot for Shadow Sun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 17:47:33


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 Jidmah wrote:
A commander leading other armies in addition to his own doesn't need any special rules to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think that's the right metric. By this logic, even the Silent King shouldn't have it. It doesn't make sense.

Care to elaborate on that? As far as I know, all lords, independent of their dynasty, bend their knees to the silent king.


Not at all. Certain lords (like that Flayed One King) probably wouldn't even be approached, and if they were - well, Flayed Ones are basically Necron World Eaters in terms of their like for other necrons and their sanity. There's also the Empire of the Severed, which is being run by a computer program - the necron personalities have all been destroyed. The computer probably doesn't even care about the Silent King except as a historical footnote in its records, if any history records survived at all. Destroyer cults, as well, probably don't appreciate his return - while less insane than Flayed Ones in absolute terms, they're not at all reliable nor do they respect nobles who are not Destroyers (hence why Nobles can't buff them, I suspect).


Those aren't subfactions though, are they? They are more like Gretchin for Orks, Servitors for Marines or Kroot for Shadow Sun.


Well, the Empire of the Severed is certainly a sub-faction. It's a full up necron tomb world, complete with nobles and stuff - just controlled by a computer rather than by the necrons themselves. And they're sub-factions army-list wise, but in the lore there's an entire domain of Flayed Ones, that, again, is its own tomb world. It even used to have it's own tomb world rules back in the day, if I'm not mistaken (among which included Flayed One troops. The Mynarkh dynasty is what my mind dredges up).

GW's definition of "subfaction" is all dorked up anyways. I would say Flayed Ones or Destroyers are on the same level as Grey Knights are - an entirely separate command structure, with significant alterations to wargear and even bodies to meet goals that the local commander may not even be a aware of...
   
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If there was any doubt about Abaddon's command of the chaos legions, the recent Charadon (spelling?) campaign trailer should further call such questions into doubt. To paraphrase Typhus...

"By the will of our Warmaster, Abaddon.."

So, at the very least, Typhus acknowledges Abaddon's title/rank and takes marching orders from the warmaster more often than a black crusade. It certainly may be GW setting Abaddon up to be some sort of Supreme Commander in more than just 'as-near-to-beyond-doubt-as-evolution' in the fluff.

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Yeah, I saw that as well. Very interesting, especially in the context of Typhus only begrudgingly following orders from Mortarion. He clearly sees Abaddon to be more worthy than his primarch.

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Perhaps being the 'Herald of Nurgle', the God of Decay has directly instructed Typhus to be Abaddon's peon as an attempt to woo the Warmaster/keep an agent in his court as part of The Great Game.

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Right behind you.

I might become moderately frustrated if Typhus gets "Supreme Commander" while Shrike doesn't.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
I might become moderately frustrated if Typhus gets "Supreme Commander" while Shrike doesn't.


Typhus won't get supreme commander, he's the commander of the 1st company of death guard. even if the death guard gain a chapter tactic for each of their companies there is ZERO reason for him to get supreme commander. the death guard already HAS a supreme commander.

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 alextroy wrote:
I would amend my list to add Warmaster Abbadon, but that's about it. GW isn't into parity, they are into story. Don't expect a Supreme Commander, Lord of War, or Aircraft just because somebody else has one.


They’re somewhat into parity. Nearly everyone does have aircraft, a d anti-aircraft from when they went on their aircraft kick.

I’ve already predicted, this wasn’t for everyone to get an extra HQ slot, but it’s going to turn out that way.

It won’t be Abadon/Logan/Shrike etc while Guilliman/Mortarian/Magnus is around. Especially as/if/when they add more.

Shadowsunm Silent King, potentially Eldrad, potentially the Ynnari triumvirate will turn into one choice, three units post deployment (like Lieutenants) potentially Celestine, potentially Ghaz. Eventually uproar over the “free” HQ slot will result in everyone getting one. Potentially Cawl if AM are as short on Named Specials as I think they are.

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I'm personally sad the Arch Greater Daemons didn't get one of the necessary keywords to use them without paying 3CP.
   
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 chimeara wrote:
I'm personally sad the Arch Greater Daemons didn't get one of the necessary keywords to use them without paying 3CP.


I'd not be suprised if they do come the chaos deamons codex

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About the only real supreme commander I can think of just now was Gen. Dwight.D. Eisenhower who was supreme commander of all allied forces in the european theater of ww2.

I'd think that the supreme commander would be a rank reserved for mixed forces or for positions not shown in 40k scale.

Obviously guilleman would be a supreme commander of all imperial forces in an operation, naval, IG, marine forces, etc. Some inquisitorial forces and kill teams might be outside his command but e'd be the overall commander of almost all imperial forces.


On a tabletop I'd say a SC might be used for stew armies or allied forces.

In a IG/SM stew the marine would normally be the supreme commander, but on rare cases a reasonable SM leader might defer to a very experienced and respected IG commander who knew the enemy and situation better.

With allied SM armies I imagine it might be like armageddon where Dante was accepted as commander of all SM forces, and assigned other forces to the tasks he deemed them best at.

With necrons the commander of the forces is pretty much decided by the royal court rules, in Szarekh is there, he's the grand poobah, period.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/23 00:37:41


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So far in two codexes and two codex supplements, we have seen 1 Supreme Commander. No model has been errated to have Supreme Commander. Two models (Ghazghkull Thraka and Commander Shadowsun) have 8th Edition era-rules that allowed them to function similarly to a Supreme Commander while three models have rules that qualify them for the Supreme Command detachment while not being Supreme Commander.

What I'm saying is, many of you are setting yourselves up for disappointment. The Dark Side awaits you.
   
 
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