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 alextroy wrote:
Most of the Eldar units seem to have some sort of durability increase in the IA Compendium. There are a number of -1 To Hit by ranged attacks and static Invulnerable Saves I don't recall being on units. The Wraithseer does seem to be on the short end of the list with the AP -1 counts as AP 0, but it's better than nothing.

I mean, it actually did go down in terms of durability. IIRC the wraithseer had more than 8W before...

Shadow Spectres: Gained Deep Strike, no durability increase.

Irrilyth gained a 4++ and deep strike.

Hornet -1 to hit now always on, not just when it advances.

Wraithseer nerfed from W12 to W8, gained gakky ignore AP-1 ability

Warp Hunter durability identical.

Lynx gained a 5++ vs shooting.

Skathcatch Wraithknight incredibly disappointingly durability identical. Still a hugely expensive superheavy with two lackluster guns and no invuln unless it gives up one of those two guns. Nothing like a superheavy that's nearly as expensive as a knight that is armed with literally a single Heavy D6 Multimelta.

"OK, here's allllllllllllllllllll the guns on my fething gigantic 405pt superheavy firing! Whoops! Wouldn't you know it, rolled a 1 for shots."

8W on the wraith seer ?

 Argive wrote:
8W on the wraith seer ?

I mean, it is a bit blurry so I suppose it could be 9. But the wraithseer has a single-digit wound count and no damage track in the new IA compendium. I read it as 8. Yeah, it got significantly less durable against all weaponry, even ap-1 weaponry. It is also now identically priced to an Ironclad Dreadnought, which it is less durable than (even if you assume it casts Protect on itself) and does less damage in melee than (even if you assume it casts Enhance or Smites prior to attacking).

So basically your typical "Anything anybody else has VS the equivalent option from Marine 3.0" comparison.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
8W on the wraith seer ?

I mean, it is a bit blurry so I suppose it could be 9. But the wraithseer has a single-digit wound count and no damage track in the new IA compendium. I read it as 8. Yeah, it got significantly less durable against all weaponry, even ap-1 weaponry. It is also now identically priced to an Ironclad Dreadnought, which it is less durable than (even if you assume it casts Protect on itself) and does less damage in melee than (even if you assume it casts Enhance or Smites prior to attacking).

So basically your typical "Anything anybody else has VS the equivalent option from Marine 3.0" comparison.

unless they change protect, wraithseers can't cast it on themselves. Wraithlords have always been "dreadnoughts but tankier" and now theyre basically even since duty eternal just about offsets the T8 vs T7. And yeah, ironclads are straight up tankier.

it cannot cast protect on anything other than infantry/biker unit and can only have one shooting weapon and has 4 attacks...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Argive wrote:
8W on the wraith seer ?

I mean, it is a bit blurry so I suppose it could be 9. But the wraithseer has a single-digit wound count and no damage track in the new IA compendium. I read it as 8. Yeah, it got significantly less durable against all weaponry, even ap-1 weaponry. It is also now identically priced to an Ironclad Dreadnought, which it is less durable than (even if you assume it casts Protect on itself) and does less damage in melee than (even if you assume it casts Enhance or Smites prior to attacking).

So basically your typical "Anything anybody else has VS the equivalent option from Marine 3.0" comparison.

unless they change protect, wraithseers can't cast it on themselves. Wraithlords have always been "dreadnoughts but tankier" and now theyre basically even since duty eternal just about offsets the T8 vs T7. And yeah, ironclads are straight up tankier.

Yep, tankier and deals more damage. And gets free ranged weapons, the wraithseer has to pay for its ranged weapons.

It's all round preeeeeeeeeetty gakky, and it puts me at about a 0% hopium level that GW is going to fix any non-marine faction from where they're at right now, because they just do not seem to get what the problems currently are.

(psssst. GW. it's the 7-8 special rules you just slapped on a whole gak ton of marine stuff without making any of it pay for anything. You dun went and fixed the statlines but you didnt take away any of the special rules you slapped on willy nilly to make sure marines started winning tournaments again after 2.0)

the_scotsman wrote:
It's all round preeeeeeeeeetty gakky, and it puts me at about a 0% hopium level that GW is going to fix any non-marine faction from where they're at right now, because they just do not seem to get what the problems currently are.

Marines being overpowered is by design. They're what new players are most likely to buy, so they have an unfair advantage so that new players don't get stomped and stop playing.

The Wraithseer went from 12W to 9 and gained a point of toughness which certainly makes me think that Wraithlords are losing a Wound too.

Which is actually a positive thing since on WL's since 10W is the worst value to have in the game right now. Does suck for Wraithseers but complaints about their stats changes are missing the forest through the trees in that it is now HS instead of HQ which is the real nerf.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly, Wraithseer with T8 W8/9 3+/5++ and Count AP -1 as AP 0 is a lot less durable than an Ironclad Dreadnaught with T8 W8 3+ and -1 Damage?

And while it has a lot less weapons, it is a Eldar Psycher. You'd expect less firepower from a support unit than you get out of an assault unit.

So we seem to be having an apples and oranges problem here.

Compare it to a librarian dreadnought if you want then..
And tell me how its apple and oranges and the wraith-seer is remotely close in terms of durability, firepower/damage output as well as utility for its points.

The whole point of a wraith seer was the fact it was a character so you could give it a trait and a relic.
Ynnari wraith-seers were actually decent. Very decent. You had to take a relic/warlord trait to give it half damage and FNP.. But that also meant you had to take a ynnari detachment to do it. And trhey were actually tanky. But still hit like a wet noodle.. No smite, only one weapon and 4 atatcks. But fine.. whatever.. It was worth it. Now? Hes been written out of most peoples list. I now have 3 wraith-seers I'm unlikely to use at any matched play level... You could argue it synergies with expert crafters but with only one weapon? 4 attacks ? A d-cannon is 30 fethin points man!! Thats more then an entire eradicator... Also hes now Heavy support. Which is our factions most crowded spot.. this is some major kind of dumassery from GW no if or buts...

No other faction outside of SM gets rules stuff for free and with no downside cost.
Lets not have this conversation all over again and pretend its anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bosskelot wrote:
The Wraithseer went from 12W to 9 and gained a point of toughness which certainly makes me think that Wraithlords are losing a Wound too.

Which is actually a positive thing since on WL's since 10W is the worst value to have in the game right now. Does suck for Wraithseers but complaints about their stats changes are missing the forest through the trees in that it is now HS instead of HQ which is the real nerf.

It did not gain a point of toughness.
It was faq to T8 to match the wraithlord (as it should be) 2 years ago.

Yes wraithlords are currently 10W and degrade.

Another idea.

They need to change up how Eldar armour is represented.

It's some of the most advanced armour in the galaxy.

Guardians 4+
Aspects 3+
Heavy aspects 3+ +1 T/W

 Bosskelot wrote:
The Wraithseer went from 12W to 9 and gained a point of toughness which certainly makes me think that Wraithlords are losing a Wound too.

Which is actually a positive thing since on WL's since 10W is the worst value to have in the game right now. Does suck for Wraithseers but complaints about their stats changes are missing the forest through the trees in that it is now HS instead of HQ which is the real nerf.

Wraithseers and Wraithlords were already T8

And yeah the biggest nerf to the wraithseer was removing its character status. It makes zero sense from a lore perspective since a wraithseer is basically a dreadnought body for a character psyker (spiritseer). Moving it to heavy support and removing the character keyword makes as much sense as putting the BA librarian dreads into heavies and making them non characters.

They nerfed a unit that was one of the only reason to actually take Ynnari at the moment, and even with Ynnari it wasn't op since it wasnt a heavy hitter (put 20 GEQ around it and watch it do nothing for the rest of the game)

I honestly think moving the cap up to -2 to hit for Eldar would really do the trick.

Without mass re-rolls it really would make a difference.
If you've ever played alitoic vs non re-roll everything army you know what I'm talking about. a -2 on a couple key units via powers/strat is plenty survivability.

As to the aspects I don't even know how you salvage a 1w T3 model unit without just making it dirt cheap..
The ROF coming out of most armies at ST3/4 is solid.

Quins have the benefit of cheap utility transport to hide their frail bodies.

But to be honest I have no idea whee to go from here..
It seems GW is refusing to adjust the statline for certain factions and units, so really its not looking good.

 alextroy wrote:
Let me make sure I understand this correctly, Wraithseer with T8 W8/9 3+/5++ and Count AP -1 as AP 0 is a lot less durable than an Ironclad Dreadnaught with T8 W8 3+ and -1 Damage?

Addressing this part of the post only, are you expressing skepticism or agreement? Because Ignore AP-1 is not NEARLY as good as -1 Damage on a model like these are.

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Let me make sure I understand this correctly, Wraithseer with T8 W8/9 3+/5++ and Count AP -1 as AP 0 is a lot less durable than an Ironclad Dreadnaught with T8 W8 3+ and -1 Damage?

Addressing this part of the post only, are you expressing skepticism or agreement? Because Ignore AP-1 is not NEARLY as good as -1 Damage on a model like these are.

I don't know. Would your rather have -1 Damage or a 5+ Invulnerable save?

Argive wrote:Compare it to a librarian dreadnought if you want then..
And tell me how its apple and oranges and the wraith-seer is remotely close in terms of durability, firepower/damage output as well as utility for its points.

Going by the IA, the WS is cheaper than the Librarian Dreadnought and has +1 T, +1 W, and a 5++. So while not being a character, he is certainly not insignificantly more durable than a LD. So while not being a character, the WS is tougher but not as offensively powerful. We will see if that holds when the Codex Supplement arrives

The whole point of a wraith seer was the fact it was a character so you could give it a trait and a relic.
Ynnari wraith-seers were actually decent. Very decent. You had to take a relic/warlord trait to give it half damage and FNP.. But that also meant you had to take a ynnari detachment to do it. And trhey were actually tanky. But still hit like a wet noodle.. No smite, only one weapon and 4 atatcks. But fine.. whatever.. It was worth it. Now? Hes been written out of most peoples list. I now have 3 wraith-seers I'm unlikely to use at any matched play level... You could argue it synergies with expert crafters but with only one weapon? 4 attacks ? A d-cannon is 30 fethin points man!! Thats more then an entire eradicator... Also hes now Heavy support. Which is our factions most crowded spot.. this is some major kind of dumassery from GW no if or buts...

No other faction outside of SM gets rules stuff for free and with no downside cost.
Lets not have this conversation all over again and pretend its anything else.

GW begs to differ. Apparently they don't want the WS to be all those things you say it is. The question to ask is does it serve a role that it can be used for, not does it serve the role it used to.

 alextroy wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Let me make sure I understand this correctly, Wraithseer with T8 W8/9 3+/5++ and Count AP -1 as AP 0 is a lot less durable than an Ironclad Dreadnaught with T8 W8 3+ and -1 Damage?

Addressing this part of the post only, are you expressing skepticism or agreement? Because Ignore AP-1 is not NEARLY as good as -1 Damage on a model like these are.

I don't know. Would your rather have -1 Damage or a 5+ Invulnerable save?

For anything short of Melta weapons, -1 Damage.

Not to mention, pretty sure you can snag an Invuln somehow, knowing how bloated the Marine Dex is.

 alextroy wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Let me make sure I understand this correctly, Wraithseer with T8 W8/9 3+/5++ and Count AP -1 as AP 0 is a lot less durable than an Ironclad Dreadnaught with T8 W8 3+ and -1 Damage?

Addressing this part of the post only, are you expressing skepticism or agreement? Because Ignore AP-1 is not NEARLY as good as -1 Damage on a model like these are.

I don't know. Would your rather have -1 Damage or a 5+ Invulnerable save?

Argive wrote:Compare it to a librarian dreadnought if you want then..
And tell me how its apple and oranges and the wraith-seer is remotely close in terms of durability, firepower/damage output as well as utility for its points.

Going by the IA, the WS is cheaper than the Librarian Dreadnought and has +1 T, +1 W, and a 5++. So while not being a character, he is certainly not insignificantly more durable than a LD. So while not being a character, the WS is tougher but not as offensively powerful. We will see if that holds when the Codex Supplement arrives

The whole point of a wraith seer was the fact it was a character so you could give it a trait and a relic.
Ynnari wraith-seers were actually decent. Very decent. You had to take a relic/warlord trait to give it half damage and FNP.. But that also meant you had to take a ynnari detachment to do it. And trhey were actually tanky. But still hit like a wet noodle.. No smite, only one weapon and 4 atatcks. But fine.. whatever.. It was worth it. Now? Hes been written out of most peoples list. I now have 3 wraith-seers I'm unlikely to use at any matched play level... You could argue it synergies with expert crafters but with only one weapon? 4 attacks ? A d-cannon is 30 fethin points man!! Thats more then an entire eradicator... Also hes now Heavy support. Which is our factions most crowded spot.. this is some major kind of dumassery from GW no if or buts...

No other faction outside of SM gets rules stuff for free and with no downside cost.
Lets not have this conversation all over again and pretend its anything else.

GW begs to differ. Apparently they don't want the WS to be all those things you say it is. The question to ask is does it serve a role that it can be used for, not does it serve the role it used to.

1. The libby dread is not cheaper as far as I can tel. Libby dread with melta gun comes in at 150pts
The wraithseer with a D-cannon is 170pts.. And if you wana go for same-ish profile as the LD with a BL its 150pts so its same pts.. Or as near as it makes no differnce if BS is inacurate here.

2. Whats better then an extra point of toughness and 1w and a 5++? Exactly...
Not being able to be shot at all. And then having -1 damage once you can be shot. Don't forget. Eldar weapons dont have fancy 2+d6 damage profile coming out of their butts.. So I don't see how -1 ap is better than -1 damage in this or any scenario ever.

3. It does not currently serve a any role. It is worse shooting than a wraith-lord or war walker or any heavy support choice because it has one weapon... And its best weapons cost 40 blimin points..
And because he has a big ol target on his face hes not reliable to buff or output consistent smite MW because he will easily die... beacsue hes targetable...
So please tell me what role he currently performs?
You seem to be the expert on wraithseers so I'm all ears.


4. What relics and traits can the LD take for free?
what relics and or traits can the WS take ? Exactly..
4.1. Im pretty sure the libby gets a +1 to cast and deny base dont he?

5. Its the only option we have. Non marines dont get 10 veriation of a walker.. we get 2..
Some factions dont get any.

I mean are we really having this conversation ?

I am puzzled as to why the wraithseer was moved to heavy, unless GW for some reason has an idea to make a wraithlord character for the new dex (unlikely). It was such a good slot for it and made sense lore wise. Hvy support makes no damn sense, unless we are moving Libby dreads to Heavy support too.

looking at the Incubi, it certainly seems that GW feels Eldar should be glass cannons (outside of wraith constructs). T3 1W is going to stay, even for Aspects (except Exarchs of course). Just make them more deadly and I'll be fine.

So we are going to keep comparing not quite comparable things, are we?

150 Points gets a Librarian Dreadnought with a Fist, Force Stave, and Stormbolter. It knows Smite, two more Psychic Powers, can cast 2 powers, and deny 1 power.

150 Points gets a Wraithseer with Ghost Spear, Wraith Shield, and an Aeldari Missile Launcher. It knows Smite and 1 seer dual power, can cast 1 power, and deny 1 power.

What are our differences?

1. The LD is a character and an HQ unit while the WS is a Heavy Support unit.
2. The WS has +2M, +1S, +1T, and +1 W.
3. The LD gets -1 Damage when attacked, while the WS has a 5+ Invulnerable Save.
4. The LD can cast two powers, but both effectively know the same number of powers.
5. The WS has much more ranged firepower in the AML compared to a Stormbolter.

So for the same 150 points, the things that make the LD better are that it is a Character (assuming this stays this way when the Codex Supplement comes out), it is a better Psycher, and it has access to things like Warlord Traits and Relics. Then there are the intangibles like Space Marines having better faction rules that Craftworld. We won't know if that gets evened out until a new Codex Craftworlds comes out.

So end analysis on my part. Not nearly as uneven as your complaints.

Theres no point in a circular argument.. if you want to ignore key things and omit key things and underplay these things you do you.

1. I could be wrong according to BS the dread have a melta rather then stave/halberd?

2. The fact it is a character is pretty important... it means it cannot be shot at. all.. which is the best defence of all despite how much you wana gloss over it. It will at least survive 2 turns easily. The wraith seer will not.

3. The fact it can buff itself or allies as well as smite is not insignificant...Not to mention you give the the sarcophagus for free so its a better psyker as well as being able to cast more powers reliably because it will be alive to cast them.. .

4. Also lets just ignore the fact that it gets more attacks in combat. and it gets double strength with fist if memory saves me right ? So the whole strength thing counts for like nothing..

At least we agree it is uneven.
As to what extent you can band aid that all you like so it does not "seem that bad" if it make you feel better.

But anyway lets wait and see.. Haven't we been hearing that a lot for the last year plus lol..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
I am puzzled as to why the wraithseer was moved to heavy, unless GW for some reason has an idea to make a wraithlord character for the new dex (unlikely). It was such a good slot for it and made sense lore wise. Hvy support makes no damn sense, unless we are moving Libby dreads to Heavy support too.

looking at the Incubi, it certainly seems that GW feels Eldar should be glass cannons (outside of wraith constructs). T3 1W is going to stay, even for Aspects (except Exarchs of course). Just make them more deadly and I'll be fine.

I would have loved to have him as elite or HQ.
The character status only sucks because he has gone down in wounds and cannot be protected.. So its like a double compound nerf.
It really would not have made much difference if he stayed at 12 wounds because he was target able anyway and if he lost character in that scenario it would not have been too bad..

As things stand i can put building the 3rd wraithseer on the back burner and the wraith-seers I have can go to the back of the paint ques to get finished.
Probably wont be seeing a lot of play unti/ if/when we get a codex.

Boy would I love to have character wraithlords/seers via CP. That would be amazing.

Is the character strat in the new SM book ?

 Argive wrote:
Theres no point in a circular argument.. if you want to ignore key things and omit key things and underplay these things you do you.

1. I could be wrong according to BS the dread have a melta rather then stave/halberd?

2. The fact it is a character is pretty important... it means it cannot be shot at. all.. which is the best defence of all despite how much you wana gloss over it. It will at least survive 2 turns easily. The wraith seer will not.

3. The fact it can buff itself or allies as well as smite is not insignificant...Not to mention you give the the sarcophagus for free so its a better psyker as well as being able to cats more powers reliably because it will be alive to cast them.. .

4. Also lets just ignore the fact that it gets more attacks in combat. and it gets double strenght with fist if memory saves me right ? So the whole strenght thing counts for like nothing..

At least we agree it is uneven.
As to what extent you can band aid that all you like so it does not "seem that bad" if it make you feel better.

But anyway lets wait and see.. Haven't we been hearing that a lot for the last year plus lol..

I think we can agree that the LD is probably better for the points, but not better in every way. That's my point. Declaring the WS crap because the LD is better is one of those fallacies that runs rampant on Dakka Dakka.

1. Per the Index Astartes Blood Angels, 150 points is storm bolter, Furioso fist, and Furioso force halberd. It cost 5 to upgrade to Meltagun or Heavy Flamer.

2. Important? Yes. Better? Probably. But that doesn't negate the better stats on the WS.

3. You say that like the WS doesn't buff it's allies. That's the entire point of it's Psychic Lore. As for the sarcophagus, it's free only in the sense that you don't pay points for a Relic. There is still the cost in either it is your free relic or you pay a CP for it and it takes the place of one of your possible relics.

4. Number of attacks isn't everything. The WS has 4 S10 AP -3 Dmg D3+3 attacks. The LD (assuming it charged, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention) has 5 S12 AP -3 D3 attacks (fist) and 1 S8 AP -3 Dmg D3+3 attack (halberd). I've got better things to do than run the numbers on which does more damage to which targets.

So as I said LD is probably a bit better. Of course, it has a new codex and we are still waiting to see what happens to the Craftworld Aeldari. Maybe their general rules will help make up the current difference.

Stop defending Space Marine units being best or nearly best in class at everything. It's a bad look.

Let's try not to derail this into a marines argument.

I think straight up durability bonuses for the eldar would... feel wrong. they're an army noted for swift mobility etc.

I think if I was writing a codex craftworld Eldar I'd do two things.

first of all I'd get rid of lighting fast reactions, and instead make it a intrinsic ability of most eldar units. (this means most CWE forces would have a built in -1 to hit)

secondly, I'd give CWE a stratigium that allows them to, after their opponent has moved, but before he begins his shooting phase, move an infantry unit, this would however count as their movement in the next movement phase. this would enable a CWE player to pull a infantry unit out of LOS of what could be heavy fire, and even potentially bait the enemy into a trap. which I feel would be VERY eldaresque.

Marines out shooting the shooting specialist units, and out fighting the fighty specialist units feels wrong too buddy... But you are right lets not derail this. I am not the one that brought the "its not as bad as you claim" and "just wait and see" and other such nonsesnse just to argue in bad faith.. But whatever.

A contsruct that has no mechanical or organic parts and is powered by psychic energy which is made from psychomantic space magic material should not be as/more durable as a metal box with a half dead mortal inside it ? Sure buddy. sure..

The -1 cap needs to go up to -2 but be hard to get and only be applicable to like 1-2 units per turn.. Having a whole army at -2/3 was a problem..

We already have quicken/ and fire and fade that does exactly this type of movement shenanigans....

I agree. the movement needs to increase.
I would also sugest auto advance 6" to all infantry, bikers and skimmers to really give them the speed and set them apart from wraith constructs.

But also need the psychci powers revamped, casting improved. How is that a namless librarian gets better casting then eldrad ulthran of a farseer who are the most psychic of all psychcis..? Also why cant I cast quicken on a wraithlord? Or enrevate? Or protect ?

The problem with giving banshees more attacks is it steps on the toes of striking scorpians who should be the aspect that vomits out attacks to deal with hordes.

banshees should have low attacks with high damage to deal with "elite" units while still making them weak to getting tarpitted.

or they could just let aspects take alternate gear like other units. banshees with executioners or mirror swords or the Chakrams.... but seeing as how banshees just got a new box not going to happen.

if banshees natively got the mortal wound scream or mortal wounds on the charge per individual like the DE psychic awakening traits could do a lot for them without raising their attacks, makes their speed more meaningful, and gives them a weakness of being out of position and charged.

 alextroy wrote:
So we are going to keep comparing not quite comparable things, are we?

150 Points gets a Librarian Dreadnought with a Fist, Force Stave, and Stormbolter. It knows Smite, two more Psychic Powers, can cast 2 powers, and deny 1 power.

150 Points gets a Wraithseer with Ghost Spear, Wraith Shield, and an Aeldari Missile Launcher. It knows Smite and 1 seer dual power, can cast 1 power, and deny 1 power.

What are our differences?

1. The LD is a character and an HQ unit while the WS is a Heavy Support unit.
2. The WS has +2M, +1S, +1T, and +1 W.
3. The LD gets -1 Damage when attacked, while the WS has a 5+ Invulnerable Save.
4. The LD can cast two powers, but both effectively know the same number of powers.
5. The WS has much more ranged firepower in the AML compared to a Stormbolter.

So for the same 150 points, the things that make the LD better are that it is a Character (assuming this stays this way when the Codex Supplement comes out), it is a better Psycher, and it has access to things like Warlord Traits and Relics. Then there are the intangibles like Space Marines having better faction rules that Craftworld. We won't know if that gets evened out until a new Codex Craftworlds comes out.

So end analysis on my part. Not nearly as uneven as your complaints.

D'you want to actually run like a defensive or offensive comparison between the two?

Assuming 9 wounds on the seer, and assuming BS3+ models shooting at them:

30.7 Autocannons
11.6 Krak Missiles
8.7 Lascannons
7.38 meltaguns in melta range

And the librarian dreadnought, assuming his character protection means nothing at all:

24 Autocannons
10.8 krak missiles
8.7 lascannons
4.0 meltaguns in melta range

I'm assuming he stays a character, though, because that's what he is in the Blood Angels index and IIRC there were not significant statline changes between the deathwatch or wolves index and the resulting codex. The wraithseer also does not have access to a psychic power that catapults him forward 12" - if the librarian dreadnought loses his self-buffs due to CORE restrictions the comparison is a lot more fair.

Offensively:

Neither has an "anti-horde" attack, so I'll just compare vs vehicles where they can deal their damage value.

Wraithseer: 7.4 damage vs T7 3+
Libdread: 7.4 damage vs T7 3+

Basically, being character protected and the librarian dreadnought being a better psycher is pretty much the only useful comparison. The defensive benefits of the wraithseer are more than offset by character protection, and offensively they're identical (well, the libdread makes more attacks, so he's better vs heavy infantry)

perhaps you could take the "space marines are OP" arguement elsewhere? because this thread might actually be constructive if it can avoid getting sidetracked by "SPACE MARINES WE HATES THEM PRECIOUS!"

BrianDavion wrote:
Let's try not to derail this into a marines argument.

I think straight up durability bonuses for the eldar would... feel wrong. they're an army noted for swift mobility etc.

I think if I was writing a codex craftworld Eldar I'd do two things.

first of all I'd get rid of lighting fast reactions, and instead make it a intrinsic ability of most eldar units. (this means most CWE forces would have a built in -1 to hit)

.

The main problem I have with this idea is how it now interacts with the stupid stupid -1 to hit cap.

It means when playing against eldar, you get the following special abilities army-wide for free:

-Move and fire heavy weapons
-Advance and fire assault weapons
-ignore Dense Cover

It's not gonna feel super fluffy to play "the fast army" with your grand old +1" of movement if your opponent's just like "Welp, might as well advance with all my gak, you're already -1 to hit!"

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Let's try not to derail this into a marines argument.

I think straight up durability bonuses for the eldar would... feel wrong. they're an army noted for swift mobility etc.

I think if I was writing a codex craftworld Eldar I'd do two things.

first of all I'd get rid of lighting fast reactions, and instead make it a intrinsic ability of most eldar units. (this means most CWE forces would have a built in -1 to hit)

.

The main problem I have with this idea is how it now interacts with the stupid stupid -1 to hit cap.

It means when playing against eldar, you get the following special abilities army-wide for free:

-Move and fire heavy weapons
-Advance and fire assault weapons
-ignore Dense Cover

It's not gonna feel super fluffy to play "the fast army" with your grand old +1" of movement if your opponent's just like "Welp, might as well advance with all my gak, you're already -1 to hit!"

I guess you could justify this by saying that Eldar are so good at dodging even the most well-placed shot that if you're shooting at them, you *may as well* just be running around, firing wildly in their general direction.

Think of it not as a bonus, I guess, but an extension to the drawback?

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Let's try not to derail this into a marines argument.

I think straight up durability bonuses for the eldar would... feel wrong. they're an army noted for swift mobility etc.

I think if I was writing a codex craftworld Eldar I'd do two things.

first of all I'd get rid of lighting fast reactions, and instead make it a intrinsic ability of most eldar units. (this means most CWE forces would have a built in -1 to hit)

.

The main problem I have with this idea is how it now interacts with the stupid stupid -1 to hit cap.

It means when playing against eldar, you get the following special abilities army-wide for free:

-Move and fire heavy weapons
-Advance and fire assault weapons
-ignore Dense Cover

It's not gonna feel super fluffy to play "the fast army" with your grand old +1" of movement if your opponent's just like "Welp, might as well advance with all my gak, you're already -1 to hit!"

yeah on that I agree. why I'd be tempted to also add in that the -1 STACKS with other -1s (meaning eldar can impose a max of a -2 to to hit them) I'd possiably also require the eldar unit to have moved to get the benifit (so no parking a unit in dense cover all game)