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Made in de
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It's also likely that they made this change to not end up tangling with having to find a proper price for certain weapons depending on whether they are on a daemon or a marine.

In any case, the buff was necessary to make daemon engines viable outside of daemonforging them every turn - a stratagem I fully expect to go away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 07:44:30


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Most likely, and as long as its pointed properly I really don't see what the bad part of this is. Shouldn't unit entries feel usable and viable ? As it stood before some options just felt like wasted choices on demon engines. So long as it all feels like there aren't any no brainer choices and it's good choices you are picking from, that is a net positive. In my mind anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 07:49:21


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
It's also likely that they made this change to not end up tangling with having to find a proper price for certain weapons depending on whether they are on a daemon or a marine.

In any case, the buff was necessary to make daemon engines viable outside of daemonforging them every turn - a stratagem I fully expect to go away.

They already got that buff indirectly with the cap on modifiers to hit.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
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That's nonsense and you know it.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
It's also likely that they made this change to not end up tangling with having to find a proper price for certain weapons depending on whether they are on a daemon or a marine.

In any case, the buff was necessary to make daemon engines viable outside of daemonforging them every turn - a stratagem I fully expect to go away.


They could also have altered their points or weapon profiles to make the lower accuracy less of an issue. They took the lazy way out imo.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Almost all daemon engines are equipped with imperial/chaos default weaponry though - multi-meltas, missile launchers, battlecannon, lascannons and so on, so altering weapon profiles isn't really a good solution.

Daemon engines have been sub-par choices for all of 8th and 9th so far, if fail to see how throwing them a bone to make them viable is such a problem.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
That's nonsense and you know it.

It isn't because it was a common complaint for anything shooting at BS4+.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Jidmah wrote:
Almost all daemon engines are equipped with imperial/chaos default weaponry though - multi-meltas, missile launchers, battlecannon, lascannons and so on, so altering weapon profiles isn't really a good solution.

Daemon engines have been sub-par choices for all of 8th and 9th so far, if fail to see how throwing them a bone to make them viable is such a problem.


If they have stock weapons lower the chassis cost instead.
   
Made in is
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Iceland

As someone who remembers the BS4(effectively BS 3+) on Craftworlds I am happy to see the army get some normalization on the BS. Especially since the platforms that are getting this buff have some of more important one-shot weapons in the army and currently provide Death Guard with one of the few long-range capacities.

There was a reason why Contemptor Dreadnoughts were popular in many Death Guard lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 09:13:33


Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons || Tyranids | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights

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Dudeface wrote:
If they have stock weapons lower the chassis cost instead.

Why is it important that daemon engines have BS/WS 4+ ?

Earth is not flat
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Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
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Orks are not a melee army
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Made in gb
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 Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
If they have stock weapons lower the chassis cost instead.

Why is it important that daemon engines have BS/WS 4+ ?


They always have historically for numerous fluff reasons, even continuity or consistency points towards them being 4+/4+.

Nurgle vehicles logically have a nurgle daemon in. Nurgle daemons hit on a 4+/4+ generally.

Literally the sole reason and justification for 3+/3+ is... it makes them more powerful.

I feel like the game is moving towards a maths model at the cost of being an immersive setting.
   
Made in ca
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4+ WS and BS isn't somehow "immersive" and if space marine scouts can have WS3 and BS3 (back in the day they used to have inferio WS and BS to full blown marines) then so can deamon engines.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
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There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.

A couple of quotes from Codex: Death Guard about daemon engines:

"The daemons of nurgle are unusual, however, in that they adapt to their captivity more swiftly than other Dark Gods. Whether through glum resignation or the gleeful realization that such form allows them to inflict all manner of mayhem, a Daemon of Nurgle is much more amicable to being trapped inside a Defiler's shell."

"Should the enemy get too close, the Myphitic Blight-hauler falls upon them like a ravenous wolf, biting and devouring[...]"

"When combined with their potent marksmanship, and their ability to wreath the Death Guard battle line in covering fumes, it's not hard to see why these Daemon Engines are so highly valued."

"Myphitic Blight-haulers encircle their foe, strike at their most vulnerable points, then close in an consume the mangled corpses that are left in destruction's wake."

"The entities that possess Foetid Bloat-drones are more aggressive and spiteful than most Daemons of Nurgle."

If anything hitting just as well as the marines using them is more immersive than being strictly worse than an insane guy in a sarcophagus mindlessly rampaging across the battlefield.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
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 Jidmah wrote:
There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.

A couple of quotes from Codex: Death Guard about daemon engines:

"The daemons of nurgle are unusual, however, in that they adapt to their captivity more swiftly than other Dark Gods. Whether through glum resignation or the gleeful realization that such form allows them to inflict all manner of mayhem, a Daemon of Nurgle is much more amicable to being trapped inside a Defiler's shell."

"Should the enemy get too close, the Myphitic Blight-hauler falls upon them like a ravenous wolf, biting and devouring[...]"

"When combined with their potent marksmanship, and their ability to wreath the Death Guard battle line in covering fumes, it's not hard to see why these Daemon Engines are so highly valued."

"Myphitic Blight-haulers encircle their foe, strike at their most vulnerable points, then close in an consume the mangled corpses that are left in destruction's wake."

"The entities that possess Foetid Bloat-drones are more aggressive and spiteful than most Daemons of Nurgle."

If anything hitting just as well as the marines using them is more immersive than being strictly worse than an insane guy in a sarcophagus mindlessly rampaging across the battlefield.


If there's nothing immersive regards stat lines, why do orkshit on 5's with 3d to artificially inflate the results, why do plague marines even have t5?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 11:03:50


 
   
Made in gb
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A lot of people hating on all daemon engines possibly getting WS 3+ / BS 3+

Im all for it! drop the stupid daemon forge strat and then we'll have daemonic killing machines which dont feel awful to play in your army.

I can easily see something like forgefiend being WS 4+/ bs 3+ and mauler fiend being the inverse.

Daemon engines become more accurate unsupported, less accurate and damaging with Daemon forge (I use that strat, hate how it feels like such a crutch to make my defiler actually feel impactful)

The Lord of skulls for Khorne was already WS/BS 3+, just make it the baseline across the army so we can have better costed weapons on all tank/vehicle profiles (Bs 4 dual las cannons suck compared to bs3)
   
Made in fi
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Dudeface wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Almost all daemon engines are equipped with imperial/chaos default weaponry though - multi-meltas, missile launchers, battlecannon, lascannons and so on, so altering weapon profiles isn't really a good solution.

Daemon engines have been sub-par choices for all of 8th and 9th so far, if fail to see how throwing them a bone to make them viable is such a problem.


If they have stock weapons lower the chassis cost instead.


They could adjust price of weapon as well. The way 9e codexes are made all weapons don't have to be same price. You can literally have different cost for every unit depending on how useful weapon is for unit.

Just for example could do melee upgrades cheaper for unit that doesn't benefit as much as dedicated melee unit.

Alas gw is too incompetent to do that way


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.
.


Ok. Bs3+ orks then 

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 11:46:58


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Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
A lot of people hating on all daemon engines possibly getting WS 3+ / BS 3+

Im all for it! drop the stupid daemon forge strat and then we'll have daemonic killing machines which dont feel awful to play in your army.

I can easily see something like forgefiend being WS 4+/ bs 3+ and mauler fiend being the inverse.

Daemon engines become more accurate unsupported, less accurate and damaging with Daemon forge (I use that strat, hate how it feels like such a crutch to make my defiler actually feel impactful)

The Lord of skulls for Khorne was already WS/BS 3+, just make it the baseline across the army so we can have better costed weapons on all tank/vehicle profiles (Bs 4 dual las cannons suck compared to bs3)


Why stop there, there's no real in-universe reason for a bs 3+ defiler, so if it's just because it'll make it suck less, go for bs 2+

The reasoning for it is "it makes my unit shoot better and saves me cp" which applies to literally every unit in the game.

If a model with a twin las cannon at bs4 costs 75% of a model with bs3+ they're balanced for damage output. People complain the game is "too killy/lethal" then want sweeping firepower increases.
   
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Why does a regular space marine with blue armor die when he takes a hit from a rokkit, while one with white armor and a nartheticum or one holding a banner will always survive the hit, even if he decides to headbut the incoming projectile while not even wearing a helmet?

Why can't the Chapter Master of the White Scars run faster than fresh recruits to the imperial army?

Why is the super-human strength of Space Marines the same as totally human strength of catachan jungle fighters?

Why is it possible for genestealers to outrun super-sonic aircraft?

Why does a commissar fail to kill a heretic cultist two out of three times but always kills loyal troops when shooting them?

I could go on like this for days. Stats are means to an end, the datasheet as a whole needs to create a unit that feels immersive when played on the battlefield. Improving or decreasing a single value doesn't suddenly shatter immersion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
They could adjust price of weapon as well. The way 9e codexes are made all weapons don't have to be same price. You can literally have different cost for every unit depending on how useful weapon is for unit.

The price is irrelevant when you can only have three of them and they won't hit the broad side of a barn. The main reason things like lascannons, heavy blight launchers or entropy cannons were not used is because low RoF weapons with low BS on degrading platforms is just a bad investment, no matter how you look at it.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.
.


Ok. Bs3+ orks then 


Shock-jump dragsta says hi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Why stop there, there's no real in-universe reason for a bs 3+ defiler, so if it's just because it'll make it suck less, go for bs 2+

The reasoning for it is "it makes my unit shoot better and saves me cp" which applies to literally every unit in the game.

If a model with a twin las cannon at bs4 costs 75% of a model with bs3+ they're balanced for damage output. People complain the game is "too killy/lethal" then want sweeping firepower increases.


Just to be clear, you are fine with daemon engines re-rolling all hits and wounds, but not with them going to BS 3+ because they are daemons?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/27 11:56:55


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





IMHO 4 WS and BS for deamon engines just feels unsastifying when you;re playing marines. you're used to 3s being your normal stats and 2s being your elites. the 4s on deamon engines was fine when it was literally once choice in the codex. but since 6th edition GW has really doubled down on deamon engines, (for example, most of the death guards heavy support options are deamon engines) so yeah I think revising them is definatly worth considering.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Why does a regular space marine with blue armor die when he takes a hit from a rokkit, while one with white armor and a nartheticum or one holding a banner will always survive the hit, even if he decides to headbut the incoming projectile while not even wearing a helmet?

Why can't the Chapter Master of the White Scars run faster than fresh recruits to the imperial army?

Why is the super-human strength of Space Marines the same as totally human strength of catachan jungle fighters?

Why is it possible for genestealers to outrun super-sonic aircraft?

Why does a commissar fail to kill a heretic cultist two out of three times but always kills loyal troops when shooting them?

I could go on like this for days. Stats are means to an end, the datasheet as a whole needs to create a unit that feels immersive when played on the battlefield. Improving or decreasing a single value doesn't suddenly shatter immersion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
They could adjust price of weapon as well. The way 9e codexes are made all weapons don't have to be same price. You can literally have different cost for every unit depending on how useful weapon is for unit.

The price is irrelevant when you can only have three of them and they won't hit the broad side of a barn. The main reason things like lascannons, heavy blight launchers or entropy cannons were not used is because low RoF weapons with low BS on degrading platforms is just a bad investment, no matter how you look at it.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.
.


Ok. Bs3+ orks then 


Shock-jump dragsta says hi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Why stop there, there's no real in-universe reason for a bs 3+ defiler, so if it's just because it'll make it suck less, go for bs 2+

The reasoning for it is "it makes my unit shoot better and saves me cp" which applies to literally every unit in the game.

If a model with a twin las cannon at bs4 costs 75% of a model with bs3+ they're balanced for damage output. People complain the game is "too killy/lethal" then want sweeping firepower increases.


Just to be clear, you are fine with daemon engines re-rolling all hits and wounds, but not with them going to BS 3+ because they are daemons?


If you want to pay cp for a strat to do that (which in reality will be changed if it even exists), sure go for your life, but thats not baked in to the unit.

You're also assuming they won't be rerolling everything on a 3+ as well.

Theyre 4+ for deeply established reasons in the setting, arbitrarily increasing that to make it "less bad" isn't the right approach.
   
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I just quoted multiple parts of fluff which contradict these "deeply established reasons".

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Jidmah wrote:There is nothing immersive about stat-lines.

A couple of quotes from Codex: Death Guard about daemon engines:

"The daemons of nurgle are unusual, however, in that they adapt to their captivity more swiftly than other Dark Gods. Whether through glum resignation or the gleeful realization that such form allows them to inflict all manner of mayhem, a Daemon of Nurgle is much more amicable to being trapped inside a Defiler's shell."


Being happy somewhere doesn't mean they're suddenly better at fighting.

"Should the enemy get too close, the Myphitic Blight-hauler falls upon them like a ravenous wolf, biting and devouring[...]"


Ravenous beasts aren't exactly coordinated or know for being skilled combatants. Pretty sure a grot will fall upon someone biting and scratching like a ravenous animal as well, give it ws3+

"When combined with their potent marksmanship, and their ability to wreath the Death Guard battle line in covering fumes, it's not hard to see why these Daemon Engines are so highly valued."


Potent marksmanship relates to tri-lobe, ignoring that most IG units are noted to have potent marksmanship, but this is the best argument so far.

"Myphitic Blight-haulers encircle their foe, strike at their most vulnerable points, then close in an consume the mangled corpses that are left in destruction's wake."


Again, how does this imply they're expert fighters with great close combat skills? Again a grot knows to hit someone in the vulnerable parts, give them ws3+

"The entities that possess Foetid Bloat-drones are more aggressive and spiteful than most Daemons of Nurgle."


Being pissed off doesn't make you fight better.

If anything hitting just as well as the marines using them is more immersive than being strictly worse than an insane guy in a sarcophagus mindlessly rampaging across the battlefield.


I agree, if a helbrute becomes enraged, drop it to bs/ws 4+ and give an attacks boost.

Jidmah wrote:I just quoted multiple parts of fluff which contradict these "deeply established reasons".


You're arguing a daemon who has their own 4+/4+ stat line, coerced into a foreign body in a realm they're not used to manipulating is as skilled in combat as an eldar aspect warrior.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/27 12:37:58


 
   
Made in gb
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
A lot of people hating on all daemon engines possibly getting WS 3+ / BS 3+

Im all for it! drop the stupid daemon forge strat and then we'll have daemonic killing machines which dont feel awful to play in your army.

I can easily see something like forgefiend being WS 4+/ bs 3+ and mauler fiend being the inverse.

Daemon engines become more accurate unsupported, less accurate and damaging with Daemon forge (I use that strat, hate how it feels like such a crutch to make my defiler actually feel impactful)

The Lord of skulls for Khorne was already WS/BS 3+, just make it the baseline across the army so we can have better costed weapons on all tank/vehicle profiles (Bs 4 dual las cannons suck compared to bs3)


Why stop there, there's no real in-universe reason for a bs 3+ defiler, so if it's just because it'll make it suck less, go for bs 2+

The reasoning for it is "it makes my unit shoot better and saves me cp" which applies to literally every unit in the game.

If a model with a twin las cannon at bs4 costs 75% of a model with bs3+ they're balanced for damage output. People complain the game is "too killy/lethal" then want sweeping firepower increases.



The sweeping firepower increases come without doubt point increases which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Your reasons for hating on Daemon engines possibly getting +3 WS/BS seems more rooted in "Not my fluff, look at X Y sources" and ignoring all the evidence pointing to the contrary.

I'd expect a Daemon Engine specifically forged to murder and kill to be EQUALLY as dangerous as a hellbrute, which is just a crazy mutated dread that the Space Marines cant even control unlike the Daemon Engines.


"Should the enemy get too close, the Myphitic Blight-hauler falls upon them like a ravenous wolf, biting and devouring[...]"


Ravenous beasts aren't exactly coordinated or know for being skilled combatants. Pretty sure a grot will fall upon someone biting and scratching like a ravenous animal as well, give it ws3+


WS doesn't always equate to consummate martial skill, if something attacks in such overwhelming brutality/force you CANT really fight back properly/deflect. The grot point you raised is both silly in stat idea and ingame universe. and as I have to say sometimes things are abstracted in stats. WS can represent skill in arms or just ability to hit you with *something*, stop being so dense and ignoring other people's valid points because YOU don't like them.
   
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Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
A lot of people hating on all daemon engines possibly getting WS 3+ / BS 3+

Im all for it! drop the stupid daemon forge strat and then we'll have daemonic killing machines which dont feel awful to play in your army.

I can easily see something like forgefiend being WS 4+/ bs 3+ and mauler fiend being the inverse.

Daemon engines become more accurate unsupported, less accurate and damaging with Daemon forge (I use that strat, hate how it feels like such a crutch to make my defiler actually feel impactful)

The Lord of skulls for Khorne was already WS/BS 3+, just make it the baseline across the army so we can have better costed weapons on all tank/vehicle profiles (Bs 4 dual las cannons suck compared to bs3)


Why stop there, there's no real in-universe reason for a bs 3+ defiler, so if it's just because it'll make it suck less, go for bs 2+

The reasoning for it is "it makes my unit shoot better and saves me cp" which applies to literally every unit in the game.

If a model with a twin las cannon at bs4 costs 75% of a model with bs3+ they're balanced for damage output. People complain the game is "too killy/lethal" then want sweeping firepower increases.



The sweeping firepower increases come without doubt point increases which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

Your reasons for hating on Daemon engines possibly getting +3 WS/BS seems more rooted in "Not my fluff, look at X Y sources" and ignoring all the evidence pointing to the contrary.

I'd expect a Daemon Engine specifically forged to murder and kill to be EQUALLY as dangerous as a hellbrute, which is just a crazy mutated dread that the Space Marines cant even control unlike the Daemon Engines.


"Should the enemy get too close, the Myphitic Blight-hauler falls upon them like a ravenous wolf, biting and devouring[...]"


Ravenous beasts aren't exactly coordinated or know for being skilled combatants. Pretty sure a grot will fall upon someone biting and scratching like a ravenous animal as well, give it ws3+


WS doesn't always equate to consummate martial skill, if something attacks in such overwhelming brutality/force you CANT really fight back properly/deflect. The grot point you raised is both silly in stat idea and ingame universe. and as I have to say sometimes things are abstracted in stats. WS can represent skill in arms or just ability to hit you with *something*, stop being so dense and ignoring other people's valid points because YOU don't like them.


Back at you.

You're literally disregarding my points as invalid because they don't fit your viewpoint. I'm entitled to my opinion as is Jidmah.

Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we can't debate back and forth, at the end of the day we can walk away with our own opinions unchanged without name calling or finger pointing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 13:09:42


 
   
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I can maybe understand Nurgle and Tzeentch Daemon Engines hitting on a 4+. I think they should hit on a 3+ for consistency's sake, given they're part of Codex CSM and not Codex Daemons, but for Nurgle and Tzeentch, their lesser Daemons hit on a 4+.

What about Khorne and Slaanesh? Their lesser Daemons hit on a 3+ base.

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I mean this is the news post, there shouldn't be a debate about daemon engine stats at all here..

I'm however in favor of this change personally.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
I can maybe understand Nurgle and Tzeentch Daemon Engines hitting on a 4+. I think they should hit on a 3+ for consistency's sake, given they're part of Codex CSM and not Codex Daemons, but for Nurgle and Tzeentch, their lesser Daemons hit on a 4+.

What about Khorne and Slaanesh? Their lesser Daemons hit on a 3+ base.


Honestly I'd be fine with it if they have a price for base chassis then a cost for the appropriate mark in the case of a choice, or simply price accordingly per book.

It does raise the question of why a bloodletter is bs 3+ and I think daemonettes are too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I mean this is the news post, there shouldn't be a debate about daemon engine stats at all here..

I'm however in favor of this change personally.


Maybe not but it is likely a massive balance shift for the book so not totally irrelevant.

Might be safer to leave it be for now though, agreed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 13:32:43


 
   
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The first Daemon Engine ever introduced to mainline 40k started off with WS2 & BS4, so I'm not sure why some folks are so heavily invested in them hitting on a 4+/4+, or why there's some funky mental gymnastics going on arguing that "there's no lore to support them being more accurate than a guardsman" when we're stuck using a D6 system to hit with minimal granularity. Ideally there would be a space to fill between a guardsman's accuracy and the abilities of a transhuman super soldier, but there isn't. Saying that they "aren't used to their confinement" makes little sense when they might be stuck in their prisons for literally thousands of years, or longer, and being able to more effectively channel their abilities is the only pathway for them to gain some small measure of respite.

I mean, go through any CSM codex and look for a quote saying that Daemon Engines can't hit things properly without looking at a statline. You won't find one.

If Fenrisian Wolves can hit on a 3+, or a Chaos Dreadnought driven insane by millennia of captivity can hit on a 3+, there's no good reason to not give Daemon Engines 3+/3+. People are just used to seeing them at 4+/4+ and are twisting the lore to suit their interpretation when GW clearly disagrees. Best get used to the new reality.

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Dudeface wrote:
Being happy somewhere doesn't mean they're suddenly better at fighting.

It debunks the argument that daemons don't fight as well inside of daemon engines because they are fighting against their restraints.

Ravenous beasts aren't exactly coordinated or know for being skilled combatants.

You mean, like fenrisian wolves or possessed?

Pretty sure a grot will fall upon someone biting and scratching like a ravenous animal as well, give it ws3+

You might want to refresh your knowledge on gretchin - they are universally described a cowardly and weak, who only take on enemies that are weaker than them through strength of numbers.

Potent marksmanship relates to tri-lobe, ignoring that most IG units are noted to have potent marksmanship, but this is the best argument so far.

The tri-lobe is not related to this, and is only referenced in later paragraphs.

Again, how does this imply they're expert fighters with great close combat skills? Again a grot knows to hit someone in the vulnerable parts, give them ws3+

Gretchin are WS5+, precisely because they don't know the first thing about close combat, and they for sure don't know how how to find a vulnerable spot on a marine or tank.
If being able to hit vulnerable parts is no a sign of combat aptitude, what is?

Being pissed off doesn't make you fight better.

Really? In a universe where half the fluff is about righteous fury, rage or hatred effectively being super-powers, let alone living manifestations of those roaming the universe?

I agree, if a helbrute becomes enraged, drop it to bs/ws 4+ and give an attacks boost.

According to the fluff this would be always.

Jidmah wrote:You're arguing a daemon who has their own 4+/4+ stat line, coerced into a foreign body in a realm they're not used to manipulating is as skilled in combat as an eldar aspect warrior.

No, I'm arguing that putting the combat and marksman abilities of an entire universe on a 2-6 scale based on fluff is nonsense, and eldar aspect warriors and their phoenix lords are probably the ultimate example why stat line tweaking has absolutely nothing to do with fluff.

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Dudeface wrote:

Being pissed off doesn't make you fight better.


Try telling that to every anime protagonist EVER.

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