Table wrote:
People who play 40k have very different ideals and you are going to have to get used to right leaning folks playing this game. Because there are a good amount of them.

Because you have far bigger problems you need to be focusing on (we all do). First world issues.

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

To start with, can you say that 40k lore/the Imperium should not encourage fascists and alt-righters despite how the Imperium’s accomplishments are actually incredibly, and incalculably vast?
If you can’t say 40k shouldn’t encourage fascists and alt-righters, then is it *wrong* to pump money and time into a franchise that still exists in this state?
Finally, if you think it is not wrong to pump money and time into the franchise given this, then is that primarily because of hope for a coming change in the Warhammer lore itself through Guilliman and the IP’s presentation by Games Workshop to change marketing and perception with a better emphasis?

Rihgu wrote:
These are really bad analogies. The questions you should be asking are "does joining a violent/fascist/racist/sexist video game community lead to violence/fascism/racism/sexism?" (proven categorically true) and "Does entering a morally degenerate music scene lead to moral degeneracy?"

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Will next they deal with the Communists I assume? Only fair to thing to do. Take out two groups of mad delusional idiots with one stone, only fair thing to do.

None of it matters and to be frank I'm new to the forum and I at least know that a thread like this is pushing some sort of rule here.

Table wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Will next they deal with the Communists I assume? Only fair to thing to do. Take out two groups of mad delusional idiots with one stone, only fair thing to do.

None of it matters and to be frank I'm new to the forum and I at least know that a thread like this is pushing some sort of rule here.

Dont worry. This thread will not last long. People are incapable of discussing different ideas without attacking in each other. I know, broad generalization. But I think I am about to proven right.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Table wrote:
People who play 40k have very different ideals and you are going to have to get used to right leaning folks playing this game. Because there are a good amount of them.

There's a difference between "right leaning" and actual racism, ethnocentric rhetoric, transphobia, antisemitism and support of fascism.

And before you say "w-w-well I haven't seen that" - good for you. But I have, so don't you dare say it doesn't exist. And, unfortunately, of all the communities I'm in, I see it in 40k the most. So, yeah - as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem. Even if there was just one person I saw with those beliefs, there's a problem.

Because you have far bigger problems you need to be focusing on (we all do). First world issues.

Like dealing with fascists, racists, and bigots, right? Or are you going to sweep those under the rug when you see them?

dadx6 wrote:This is amusingly exactly like blaming women for inviting rape by wearing trashy clothes.

"WH40K encourages fascists and racists!"

No, the solution is for people to choose not to be fascists or racists. Just like the solution to rape is for people to not rape other people.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

And before you say "w-w-well I haven't seen that" - good for you. But I have, so don't you dare say it doesn't exist. And, unfortunately, of all the communities I'm in, I see it in 40k the most. So, yeah - as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem. Even if there was just one person I saw with those beliefs, there's a problem.?

 Polonius wrote:
I think there are two strands of thought in the OP, one of which I agree with, the other I do not.

the first is the appeal the 40k lore has to people with fascist tendencies. Yes, you can call them shitposters, or the alt right, or whatever, but 40k has a lot of fans in that camp. You don't need to dig deep to find it. And it's not hard to see why: not only is 40k dominated by warfare, it's one in which the brainwashed super soldiers for the totalitarian empire are the protagonists! Also, the imperium of man is beset on all sides by threats, from without and within, the struggle has a spiritual aspect, and the best hope is violence and strength. If that doesn't sound like modern far right rherotic, you aren't paying attention.

the second strand is if GW is somehow responsible for this. And I don't think so. Nobody is lured into hatred because of GW, I think it just provides a vocabulary of symbols for people to relate to.

In short, I think it's obvious the appeal 40k has to the far right, but I don't think there's anything morally or ethically wrong with playing 40k.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I read the whole OP. In part, I agree with it. I wouldn't want 40Ks background to change though, but I also would like the Imperium to be shown more often as the fascist dictatorship it really is. Chaos has become as strong as it is because of the Imperium, not despite it. And I would like 40K/ GW to emphasize that.

Yeah, no issue having the Imperium *be* the bad guy, but make that crystal clear. Make it clear that they're not essential, that what they do isn't just "survival", that for all their propaganda, they are still undisputedly evil.

Slipspace wrote:
If people who hold fascist or otherwise deplorable viewpoints idolise certain elements of 40k's background the problem is not with the background. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding this, but the problem is with the fascists. Y'know, because they're fascists.

Agreed, but we have to be aware that those fascists believe that the background supports their beliefs. Obviously, it was not intended to, and so I don't believe that 40k "encourages" hatred, but can it be used to support it? To a fascist, yes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Table wrote:
People who play 40k have very different ideals and you are going to have to get used to right leaning folks playing this game. Because there are a good amount of them.

There's a difference between "right leaning" and actual racism, ethnocentric rhetoric, transphobia, antisemitism and support of fascism.

And before you say "w-w-well I haven't seen that" - good for you. But I have, so don't you dare say it doesn't exist. And, unfortunately, of all the communities I'm in, I see it in 40k the most. So, yeah - as far as I'm concerned, there's a problem. Even if there was just one person I saw with those beliefs, there's a problem.

Because you have far bigger problems you need to be focusing on (we all do). First world issues.

Like dealing with fascists, racists, and bigots, right? Or are you going to sweep those under the rug when you see them?

Nurglitch wrote:
Some years ago I was a financial planner (read: salesman) and part of our training for fleecing clients ("Shields Down" was part of our vocabulary...) was repetition. Repeating phrases, and making sure we repeatedly approached contacts using the same formulas was the core approach we were taught. Admittedly, the program had something of a survivorship bias, but the most successful salesmen were the ones who could repeat the same phrases over and over despite context and despite the mark (one teacher emphasized saying that everything was 'Great!' the manky scotch git, regardless of what it was it was a great opportunity to sell). The point being that constant repetition and exposure to an idea is possibly the greatest factor in someone taking it in.

Which has the unfortunate corollary that we need to practice a form of memetic sanitation so that, like daemons, bad ideas can't infiltrate us.

 Polonius wrote:

the first is the appeal the 40k lore has to people with fascist tendencies. Yes, you can call them shitposters, or the alt right, or whatever, but 40k has a lot of fans in that camp. You don't need to dig deep to find it. And it's not hard to see why: not only is 40k dominated by warfare, it's one in which the brainwashed super soldiers for the totalitarian empire are the protagonists! Also, the imperium of man is beset on all sides by threats, from without and within, the struggle has a spiritual aspect, and the best hope is violence and strength. If that doesn't sound like modern far right rherotic, you aren't paying attention.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I read the whole OP. In part, I agree with it. I wouldn't want 40Ks background to change though, but I also would like the Imperium to be shown more often as the fascist dictatorship it really is. Chaos has become as strong as it is because of the Imperium, not despite it. And I would like 40K/ GW to emphasize that.

Yeah, no issue having the Imperium *be* the bad guy, but make that crystal clear. Make it clear that they're not essential, that what they do isn't just "survival", that for all their propaganda, they are still undisputedly evil.

what the hell are you talking about, they are human. That automaticly makes them right when facing anything that isn't human or goes against human survival. Being anti empire, would be like being anti human and pro animal in real life. The empire isn't bad, because inviting morality in to judgment of any system ends with one situation every time, since it was tried the first time in 1776, it can be upheld only as long as your faction is the strongest one and can force others.

karol wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
If people who hold fascist or otherwise deplorable viewpoints idolise certain elements of 40k's background the problem is not with the background. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding this, but the problem is with the fascists. Y'know, because they're fascists.

Agreed, but we have to be aware that those fascists believe that the background supports their beliefs. Obviously, it was not intended to, and so I don't believe that 40k "encourages" hatred, but can it be used to support it? To a fascist, yes.

Okey, how would anyone who isn't a fasist, before they start w40k, suddenly become fasist after coming in contact with w40k lore? Because there are no fasist states in w40k. How would he find the background to support his ideas, when the back ground doesn't exist in the game?

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I read the whole OP. In part, I agree with it. I wouldn't want 40Ks background to change though, but I also would like the Imperium to be shown more often as the fascist dictatorship it really is. Chaos has become as strong as it is because of the Imperium, not despite it. And I would like 40K/ GW to emphasize that.

Yeah, no issue having the Imperium *be* the bad guy, but make that crystal clear. Make it clear that they're not essential, that what they do isn't just "survival", that for all their propaganda, they are still undisputedly evil.

what the hell are you talking about, they are human. That automaticly makes them right when facing anything that isn't human or goes against human survival.

Okey, how would anyone who isn't a fasist, before they start w40k, suddenly become fasist after coming in contact with w40k lore?

Because there are no fasist states in w40k.

nekooni wrote:

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

To start with, can you say that 40k lore/the Imperium should not encourage fascists and alt-righters despite how the Imperium’s accomplishments are actually incredibly, and incalculably vast?
If you can’t say 40k shouldn’t encourage fascists and alt-righters, then is it *wrong* to pump money and time into a franchise that still exists in this state?
Finally, if you think it is not wrong to pump money and time into the franchise given this, then is that primarily because of hope for a coming change in the Warhammer lore itself through Guilliman and the IP’s presentation by Games Workshop to change marketing and perception with a better emphasis?

"All Quiet on the Western Front" shows war. It doesn't promote it.
Warhammer 40k shows a fascist human future. It doesn't promote it.

That being said, even if fascists and far-right folks really were "taking over" 40k (and I highly doubt it - especially(!) at GW HQ or in my local community there's absolutely no indication this is going on) - is giving up and letting them take it over really a good idea?

Rihgu wrote:
These are really bad analogies. The questions you should be asking are "does joining a violent/fascist/racist/sexist video game community lead to violence/fascism/racism/sexism?" (proven categorically true) and "Does entering a morally degenerate music scene lead to moral degeneracy?"

No, the question you need to ask first is "is the community you're talking about violent/fascist/racist/sexist?", maybe even a more basic question of "is this even a community?" - I strongly disagree with the idea that there's a "video game community", for example. It's like claiming that all sports are one big community - doesn't matter if it's football, volleyball, chess, biking or sailing. There are football clubs that are great, there are football clubs that have issues with violence. But "football" isn't a violent community, even though some clubs have issues with hooligans.

Karol wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

the first is the appeal the 40k lore has to people with fascist tendencies. Yes, you can call them shitposters, or the alt right, or whatever, but 40k has a lot of fans in that camp. You don't need to dig deep to find it. And it's not hard to see why: not only is 40k dominated by warfare, it's one in which the brainwashed super soldiers for the totalitarian empire are the protagonists! Also, the imperium of man is beset on all sides by threats, from without and within, the struggle has a spiritual aspect, and the best hope is violence and strength. If that doesn't sound like modern far right rherotic, you aren't paying attention.

aside for the super soldiers, unless we count waregs and kozaks as those, you just described how Russia functions since XIIth century, and before the Kiev and Novigrod Rus. It would be really hard to describe Russia at any time as fasist.

Beint totalitarian or having a country based on military might is hardly indicative of being fasist. I mean the US have one of the largest army in the world, and they aren't fasist. North Korea is totalitarian and exist for the sole purpose to feed and arm its army, but it ain't fasists either.

Nurglitch wrote:
Some years ago I was a financial planner (read: salesman) and part of our training for fleecing clients ("Shields Down" was part of our vocabulary...) was repetition. Repeating phrases, and making sure we repeatedly approached contacts using the same formulas was the core approach we were taught. Admittedly, the program had something of a survivorship bias, but the most successful salesmen were the ones who could repeat the same phrases over and over despite context and despite the mark (one teacher emphasized saying that everything was 'Great!' the manky scotch git, regardless of what it was it was a great opportunity to sell). The point being that constant repetition and exposure to an idea is possibly the greatest factor in someone taking it in.

Which has the unfortunate corollary that we need to practice a form of memetic sanitation so that, like daemons, bad ideas can't infiltrate us.

Table wrote:I am not in the camp of censorship or de-platforming.

It is ok for a setting to have a fascist state in it. It may be a dangerous for young children to be showed heroic versions of it without parental guidance proving context to it all. And that is only problem for me. It is up to GW to put more warning labels on. Or shift the suggested age of play higher. More parental interaction should be required when dealing with 40k and children.

As for a nazi liking 40k or identifying with the imperium? Good for them. I have the choice not play versus such people or even be in the same room with them. And when/if I run into one, that is what I will do. It is up to the store owners to stop harrasment of clients.

And no, I said I did not expect my experience to trump everyone else. Not sure how you glanced over that but ok.

Table wrote:Eh, not into mind control on any level. One mans bad idea is another mans great idea. Where does the censorship begin? Where does it end? Who is policing this?

The problem is at home. It is with parents not being interactive with their children. There will ALWAYS be nazi's. There will ALWAYS be jerks. Parents need to conceptualized this fact and edit to their moral standing. Whatever that may be.

Another problem is people do not understand what I am about to type. You cannot shame a racist. You cannot stop someone from being a jerk. You CAN stop them from slander, physical or mental violence and from harassment. The problem needs to be solved in the stores by the store owners.

In his 1995 essay "Ur-Fascism", cultural theorist Umberto Eco lists fourteen general properties of fascist ideology.[19] He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. The fourteen properties are as follows:

"The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
"The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
"The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
"Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
"Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
"Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
"Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
"Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
"Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
"Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
"Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
"Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."
"Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Table wrote:I am not in the camp of censorship or de-platforming.

What's wrong with deplatforming fascists? What could they possible have to say that's constructive to civil society on their platform?

What's wrong with deplatforming the the conservative, the liberal, the Jew, the Christian, the Muslim, the Communist, the Socialist, The Texan, the Californian, Black, White, Asian, Gay, Straight, etc...

Who gets to decide anything and who declares the labelling of the individual? Do you, do they, A Gov't body in power? It worked real well in the 50s I hear, a whole commission dedicated to rooting them out, destroy them, expose them, deplatform them. Why I can see GW now, "Were you or ever were a Comm... I mean Facist."

Karol wrote:


what the hell are you talking about, they are human. That automaticly makes them right when facing anything that isn't human or goes against human survival. Being anti empire, would be like being anti human and pro animal in real life. The empire isn't bad, because inviting morality in to judgment of any system ends with one situation every time, since it was tried the first time in 1776, it can be upheld only as long as your faction is the strongest one and can force others.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I read the whole OP. In part, I agree with it. I wouldn't want 40Ks background to change though, but I also would like the Imperium to be shown more often as the fascist dictatorship it really is. Chaos has become as strong as it is because of the Imperium, not despite it. And I would like 40K/ GW to emphasize that.

Yeah, no issue having the Imperium *be* the bad guy, but make that crystal clear. Make it clear that they're not essential, that what they do isn't just "survival", that for all their propaganda, they are still undisputedly evil.

what the hell are you talking about, they are human. That automaticly makes them right when facing anything that isn't human or goes against human survival.

... it really doesn't. Being human doesn't make you "good" or "right" in the slightest.

Or are you genuinely saying that humans could and should wipe out all other life in the galaxy, and they'd be justified because "humans, feth yeah!" ?

Okey, how would anyone who isn't a fasist, before they start w40k, suddenly become fasist after coming in contact with w40k lore?

Because of encouragement and validation from fascist members within the hobby - who, not removed, continue to fester.

Because there are no fasist states in w40k.

The Imperium.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Table wrote:I am not in the camp of censorship or de-platforming.

What's wrong with deplatforming fascists? What could they possible have to say that's constructive to civil society on their platform?

What's wrong with deplatforming the the conservative, the liberal, the Jew, the Christian, the Muslim, the Communist, the Socialist, The Texan, the Californian, Black, White, Asian, Gay, Straight, etc...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
If people who hold fascist or otherwise deplorable viewpoints idolise certain elements of 40k's background the problem is not with the background. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding this, but the problem is with the fascists. Y'know, because they're fascists.

Agreed, but we have to be aware that those fascists believe that the background supports their beliefs. Obviously, it was not intended to, and so I don't believe that 40k "encourages" hatred, but can it be used to support it? To a fascist, yes.

So, as much as we can all sit around and say "only a madman would think 40k supports fascism", that still leaves us with the madmen in our hobby. I'd like if GW spent more effort rooting them out. Make them uncomfortable, make them know that this isn't a place for them. Call them out vocally.