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Video games cause violence
Dungeons & Dragons is satanic
and toy soldiers breed fascism

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Table wrote:I am not in the camp of censorship or de-platforming.

What's wrong with deplatforming fascists? What could they possible have to say that's constructive to civil society on their platform?

What's wrong with deplatforming the the conservative, the liberal, the Jew, the Christian, the Muslim, the Communist, the Socialist, The Texan, the Californian, Black, White, Asian, Gay, Straight, etc...

Which one of those groups prides themselves on racism, ethnocentricism, bigotry, and authoritarian/totalitarian militarisation?

Oh, yeah - none of them.
But what I've just described? That's a fascist. A Nazi. And you aren't a fascist if you don't hold those beliefs, because those are quite literally the hallmarks of being fascist.

So, now I've demonstrated *why* fascists are different to all your strawmen, and deserving of removal, are you still going to defend racists and ethnocentrists?

If we are going by that I mean there is plenty of data that shows a large amount racism within the black community and large proportion of intolerance for homosexuals within it as well. I wonder would you say that for a Communist of some sort. Then again you obviously believe in the gak which is the Paradox of Intolerance.

It's interesting that this topic pops up more frequently now and I've had discussions about this in multiple threads now. I get the concern, but if people draw real-life lessons from 40k or try to validate some of their beliefs with 40k lore, the fault lies with them.

40k lore is not a holy book for fascists that gives them a divine mandate to validate their deplorable beliefs. It is a piece of fiction that at its core serves as a warning against totalitarian regimes. And it poses an uncomfortable question imo: if those existential threats were in fact real, would or could we also devolve into a similar system?

I have never encountered people as op describes them, but I don't deny that they exist. I can't say anything to the extent of the problem, but I am heavily, heavily against censoring 40k or putting a warning label on it.

I believe it is within the responsability of the community to first try to engage these people, especially when they are young, and try to educate them about 40k being a parody and meant as a warning. If that doesn't work you can just avoid these people.

My point is that if people truly draw real life lessons from 40k or idolize parts of its lore because they think it validates their beliefs, such people will do the same with any piece of fiction that has dark aspects. Are we gonna put a warning label or censor any piece of fiction that might appeal to these people?

Edit: doing that would massively go against my understanding of free speech.

Table wrote:
You are not the the thought police. You have no right to remove anyone or anything unless you are a store owner, club organizer or parent. You do understand that banning ideas and de-platforming people is the go to tactic of the same very fascists that we are against?

Racists have no right to be racist. I'm just showing them the door.

I advise you read Karl Popper's Paradox of Intolerance.

Cases of harassment do need to be dealt with. But by the proper authorities in the situations. If a nazi is in a store messing with clients the owner needs to eject them or deal with consequences of supporting such people, and those will probably be legal consequences.

Okay, so GW, as the owner of the 40k brand, need to be ejecting fascists, yes?

Once more. If you want to edit who and who cannot play. Then you are the problem right along with the fash.

Why should fascists have a place to play?

Seriously, why should they? They actively jeopardise the safety of those around them - what gives them freedom to express their hatred?

Freedom of speech is the most sacred and important right in this country. And you or I do not get to control that. A nazi has as much right to gather and speak as anyone

... um, no. Nazis don't have a right to gather and speak as any, because that is hate speech. Hate speech is not protected by the International Declaration of Human Rights. So, no, Nazis don't have a right to gather and speak, but unfortunately, it seems many people don't have the stones to take them to account on it.

Also, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. You express your beliefs as a fascist - suffer the consequences.

I am a old school centrist. A democrat before it was invaded by the far left. I am for big government. I am for social programs to lift up and help those who have been disadvantaged by race or gender or poverty. I think college should be free. I think the military should be cut in half. I think that the constitution is important to America. This includes owning guns and saying things that people do not like. I am only stating this so we can just skip the political pandering and attacks.

I wasn't going to mention any of that, because it doesn't change that you're misinformed on the idea of freedom of speech.

If someone's free speech jeopardises the rights of other people (be that by race, gender, sexuality, etc) to live in life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, then their beliefs *are not protected by freedom of speech*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irkjoe wrote:
It isn't GWs responsibility people out for anything at all.

Why not? Table was saying that the store owners (and therefore, IP owners) are the ones who have a responsibility to deal with that.

Not only that, it would be totally meaningless and they only do it because they believe it makes them look good. It was a hollow marketing attempt that was met with much deserved resentment, not because racism isn't bad, but because it isn't GWs right to tell me anything beyond what new models are coming out.

Ah, the good old "stop saying racists are bad, I want to live in ignorance!!!" argument.

The 40k fascists is a conspiracy theory that you use to shut people up and justify a completely unearned sense of moral superiority. And even if they were real, nobody would need you to take the heavy burden upon yourself to explain why fascism is bad.

Happy living in your bubble? You might want to look out the window, is all I'm saying.

Why should a Marxist have a place to play? I say we get rid of Tau and their animes, we don't need no stinkin' Tau and their.... interesting art.

The crux of the issue is rooted in a couple of false premises:

"Fiction has the responsibility to shape reality in a positive way"

It doesn't. Fiction is a way to engage with concepts that are removed from reality and, as such, must be free of restriction to have a reason to exist in the first place. People write about war, rape, torture, crime etc. because these concepts are intriguing, but one cannot engage with them in the real world due to very tangible consequences for one self and others, which are not present in fiction.

"Concepts explored in fiction do, in fact, shape reality in meaningful ways"

This one isn't as bad, because they can and do, but the extent and quality of their impact is impossible to measure and we should be wary of voices who call to restrict fiction in pursuit of something they cannot even make a solid, empirically sound case for.

Taking 40k as an example, the false premise employed in this context would be something like this:

"40k explores a dystopian future of humanity, in which fascism and religious dogmatism are the norm rather than the extreme, which in turn reinforces fascist tendencies in reality and should thus be censored/altered to depict a different picture to make our world better."

Now, the two false premises are obvious in this example, but it also misses the fact that 40k is successful not despite these supposedly problematic concepts, but specifically because of them.

tl;dr

No. The issue lies in the misunderstanding of fiction and its place and effects in the real world. Attempts to change or censor fiction are likely rooted in a naive and simplistic world view or an authoritarian mindset.

Table wrote:You are not the the thought police. You have no right to remove anyone or anything unless you are a store owner, club organizer or parent. You do understand that banning ideas and de-platforming people is the go to tactic of the same very fascists that we are against?

Once more. If you want to edit who and who cannot play. Then you are the problem right along with the fash. If you have issues in a club or online, bring it to the attention of the purveyors of such places. I am old school card carrying and donating member of the ACLU. As I find its old stances very important. Freedom of speech is the most sacred and important right in this country. And you or I do not get to control that. A nazi has as much right to gather and speak as anyone. I do not like what they say. So I dont attend. Or, protest. Which is also a right.

Well, actual fascists used street violence, secret police, and work camps to handle view points they didn't like. I'm not sure the Gestapo were politely escorting dissidents out of public places.

Irkjoe wrote:It isn't GWs responsibility people out for anything at all. Not only that, it would be totally meaningless and they only do it because they believe it makes them look good. It was a hollow marketing attempt that was met with much deserved resentment, not because racism isn't bad, but because it isn't GWs right to tell me anything beyond what new models are coming out.

The 40k fascists is a conspiracy theory that you use to shut people up and justify a completely unearned sense of moral superiority. And even if they were real, nobody would need you to take the heavy burden upon yourself to explain why fascism is bad.

So, I don't get why racists have some sort of right to think as they do, but a company has no right to say, no, you shouldn't be that way, and we don't want you around.

also, why is everybody's response to this always "i'm 100% not racist, but being told not to be racist makes me soooooo mad." When I'm at a public pool and it says, "don't gak in the pool," I don't get mad about that. I think, "yeah, it's a shame it needs to be said, but I really don't want gak in the pool!"

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

It's interesting that this topic pops up more frequently now and I've had discussions about this in multiple threads now. I get the concern, but if people draw real-life lessons from 40k or try to validate some of their beliefs with 40k lore, the fault lies with them.

40k lore is not a holy book for fascists that gives them a divine mandate to validate their deplorable beliefs. It is a piece of fiction that at its core serves as a warning against totalitarian regimes. And it poses an uncomfortable question imo: if those existential threats were in fact real, would or could we also devolve into a similar system?

I have never encountered people as op describes them, but I don't deny that they exist. I can't say anything to the extent of the problem, but I am heavily, heavily against censoring 40k or putting a warning label on it.

I believe it is within the responsability of the community to first try to engage these people, especially when they are young, and try to educate them about 40k being a parody and meant as a warning. If that doesn't work you can just avoid these people.

My point is that if people truly draw real life lessons from 40k or idolize parts of its lore because they think it validates their beliefs, such people will do the same with any piece of fiction that has dark aspects. Are we gonna put a warning label or censor any piece of fiction that might appeal to these people?

I don't think that's what anyone here is saying.

The point I'm making, that you, I think, agree with, is that it's a community effort to prevent fascists and bigots in our hobby - and that means active solidarity against people with those beliefs, young or old. It's all well and good to say "well, we'll just avoid them", but that's not *solving* the problem, it's just letting it gather it's own audience.

TL;DR - no, 40k's fine. But the fascists that exist within the community that aren't being called out are a problem.

Satire and parody of real world events are always more palatable when it does not mirror reality too closely.

To a degree this is determined by your perspective of current events, but oh well.


I thought this thread was going to be about the bitterness associated eith investing a large amount of time and money into a game only for it to bite you in the butt and make it near impossible for you to comepte due to the nature of how the company has decided to "balance" the game.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why should a Marxist have a place to play? I say we get rid of Tau and their animes, we don't need no stinkin' Tau and their.... interesting art.

What part of Marxist doctrine promotes racism, ethnocentricism or bigotry?

Or is "interesting art" all you've got?

Come on, it's not even like you're trying.

You lot didn’t fancy giving the mods Christmas off, huh?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why should a Marxist have a place to play? I say we get rid of Tau and their animes, we don't need no stinkin' Tau and their.... interesting art.

What part of Marxist doctrine promotes racism, ethnocentricism or bigotry?

Or is "interesting art" all you've got?

Come on, it's not even like you're trying.

There is a mountain of skulls that beg to differ and my family was fortunate to not become part of such.

 BertBert wrote:
No. The issue lies in the misunderstanding of fiction and its place and effects in the real world. Attempts to change or censor fiction are likely rooted in a naive and simplistic world view or an authoritarian mindset.

Again, as I touched on this only just now, I don't think the main consensus here is "40k needs to change". The fiction's fine. The question is what do we do about the idiots who think it's a great way to live your life?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why should a Marxist have a place to play? I say we get rid of Tau and their animes, we don't need no stinkin' Tau and their.... interesting art.

What part of Marxist doctrine promotes racism, ethnocentricism or bigotry?

Or is "interesting art" all you've got?

Come on, it's not even like you're trying.

There is a mountain of skulls that beg to differ and my family was fortunate to not become part of such.

Marxist, not Soviet or Communist. Marxist. I'm asking for specifics here.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Satire and parody of real world events are always more palatable when it does not mirror reality too closely.

To a degree this is determined by your perspective of current events, but oh well.

Can we stop claiming that 40k is a satire or parody? Yes, 30 years ago, it had satirical elements, but it was never the driving force of the game or it's appeal, and those elements have long been fleshed away. 40k is utterly and consistently sincere in it's tone. the only aspects of winking humor in 40k are when it parodies itself.

 BertBert wrote:
The crux of the issue is rooted in a couple of false premises:

"Fiction has the responsibility to shape reality in a positive way"

It doesn't. Fiction is a way to engage with concepts that are removed from reality and, as such, must be free of restriction to have a reason to exist in the first place. People write about war, rape, torture, crime etc. because these concepts are intriguing, but one cannot engage with them in the real world due to very tangible consequences for one self and others, which are not present in fiction.

"Concepts explored in fiction do, in fact, shape reality in meaningful ways"

This one isn't as bad, because they can and do, but the extent and quality of their impact is impossible to measure and we should be wary of voices who call to restrict fiction in pursuit of something they cannot even make a solid, empirically sound case for.

Taking 40k as an example, the false premise employed in this context would be something like this:

"40k explores a dystopian future of humanity, in which fascism and religious dogmatism are the norm rather than the extreme, which in turn reinforces fascist tendencies in reality and should thus be censored/altered to depict a different picture to make our world better."

Now, the two false premises are obvious in this example, but it also misses the fact that 40k is successful not despite these supposedly problematic concepts, but specifically because of them.

tl;dr

No. The issue lies in the misunderstanding of fiction and its place and effects in the real world. Attempts to change or censor fiction are likely rooted in a naive and simplistic world view or an authoritarian mindset.

Thank you. Way better put than I did. I wholeheartedly agree with this

O I see "Marx can do no wrong"

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I thought this thread was going to be about the bitterness associated eith investing a large amount of time and money into a game only for it to bite you in the butt and make it near impossible for you to comepte due to the nature of how the company has decided to "balance" the game.

I think the answer would still have been a no, but it wouldn't have spawned this many laughable takes.

Also... the Tau live in a rigid caste system with a genetically different ruling class. Guess what... that ain't marxist.

It's collectivist, and it's implied that there is state control of the economy (OTOH, the water caste explicitly contains merchants), and it's close enough, but the Tau empire seems to present an ideal form of collectivism in stark contrast to the grim dark of the Imperium.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The question is what do we do about the idiots who think it's a great way to live your life?

We address them the same way we do in all other instances of everyday life. Distance yourself from them, challenge their beliefs, let them know certain behaviour is not accepted. It's not rocket science and I'm baffled how this is even an issue? Do you guys have overt racists in your gaming groups? I know I don't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Spoiler:

It's interesting that this topic pops up more frequently now and I've had discussions about this in multiple threads now. I get the concern, but if people draw real-life lessons from 40k or try to validate some of their beliefs with 40k lore, the fault lies with them.

40k lore is not a holy book for fascists that gives them a divine mandate to validate their deplorable beliefs. It is a piece of fiction that at its core serves as a warning against totalitarian regimes. And it poses an uncomfortable question imo: if those existential threats were in fact real, would or could we also devolve into a similar system?

I have never encountered people as op describes them, but I don't deny that they exist. I can't say anything to the extent of the problem, but I am heavily, heavily against censoring 40k or putting a warning label on it.

I believe it is within the responsability of the community to first try to engage these people, especially when they are young, and try to educate them about 40k being a parody and meant as a warning. If that doesn't work you can just avoid these people.

My point is that if people truly draw real life lessons from 40k or idolize parts of its lore because they think it validates their beliefs, such people will do the same with any piece of fiction that has dark aspects. Are we gonna put a warning label or censor any piece of fiction that might appeal to these people?

I don't think that's what anyone here is saying.

The point I'm making, that you, I think, agree with, is that it's a community effort to prevent fascists and bigots in our hobby - and that means active solidarity against people with those beliefs, young or old. It's all well and good to say "well, we'll just avoid them", but that's not *solving* the problem, it's just letting it gather it's own audience.

TL;DR - no, 40k's fine. But the fascists that exist within the community that aren't being called out are a problem.

That I totally agree with. I think I wrote that we as a community have to engage such people when encounterd, especially when they are young and try to educate them.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
O I see "Marx can do no wrong"

I didn't say that - I'm asking you to express in what way you think Marxist ideology is bigoted.

I never mentioned Marxism, you did. So, go ahead - tell us what you know.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
No. The issue lies in the misunderstanding of fiction and its place and effects in the real world. Attempts to change or censor fiction are likely rooted in a naive and simplistic world view or an authoritarian mindset.

Again, as I touched on this only just now, I don't think the main consensus here is "40k needs to change". The fiction's fine. The question is what do we do about the idiots who think it's a great way to live your life?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why should a Marxist have a place to play? I say we get rid of Tau and their animes, we don't need no stinkin' Tau and their.... interesting art.

What part of Marxist doctrine promotes racism, ethnocentricism or bigotry?

Or is "interesting art" all you've got?

Come on, it's not even like you're trying.

There is a mountain of skulls that beg to differ and my family was fortunate to not become part of such.

Marxist, not Soviet or Communist. Marxist. I'm asking for specifics here.

Every single one owes itself to it, a corner stone of everyone.

 BertBert wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The question is what do we do about the idiots who think it's a great way to live your life?

We address them the same way we do in all other instances of everyday life. Distance yourself from them, challenge their beliefs, let them know certain behaviour is not accepted. It's not rocket science and I'm baffled how this is even an issue? Do you guys have overt racists in your gaming groups? I know I don't.

Absolutely! It *shouldn't* be an issue, yet there's plenty of people in this here thread who don't even think they exist, and those who do exist should be allowed their freedom of hatespeech!

I don't know, maybe we're the odd ones out here.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
O I see "Marx can do no wrong"

I didn't say that - I'm asking you to express in what way you think Marxist ideology is bigoted.

I never mentioned Marxism, you did. So, go ahead - tell us what you know.

Why should I respond to a fascist.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
O I see "Marx can do no wrong"

I didn't say that - I'm asking you to express in what way you think Marxist ideology is bigoted.

I never mentioned Marxism, you did. So, go ahead - tell us what you know.

Why should I respond to a fascist.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts - that you don't know what you're talking about, and just trolling.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The question is what do we do about the idiots who think it's a great way to live your life?

We address them the same way we do in all other instances of everyday life. Distance yourself from them, challenge their beliefs, let them know certain behaviour is not accepted. It's not rocket science and I'm baffled how this is even an issue? Do you guys have overt racists in your gaming groups? I know I don't.

Absolutely! It *shouldn't* be an issue, yet there's plenty of people in this here thread who don't even think they exist, and those who do exist should be allowed their freedom of hatespeech!

I don't know, maybe we're the odd ones out here.

I think there are a couple reasons. the first is, a lot of people are more bigoted than they realize, so they see stuff that they perceive as cheeky humor instead of hateful. The second is that people are legitimately afraid that they will be the next target, so they're more willing to give intolerant speech that doesn't effect them a pass, because they know they might say something intolerant in the future. And Third, some people do see free speech as speech without consequences, where nobody should be held accountable for just words.

Witch! We've got a witch over here!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
O I see "Marx can do no wrong"

I didn't say that - I'm asking you to express in what way you think Marxist ideology is bigoted.

I never mentioned Marxism, you did. So, go ahead - tell us what you know.

Why should I respond to a fascist.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts - that you don't know what you're talking about, and just trolling.

Im sorry I don't excuse an ideology that helped kill chunks of my family.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Absolutely! It *shouldn't* be an issue, yet there's plenty of people in this here thread who don't even think they exist, and those who do exist should be allowed their freedom of hatespeech!

I don't know, maybe we're the odd ones out here.

Folks in the States have a very different opinion on what freedom of speech means compared to people in other countries. In the states, freedom of speech means that people have the right to speak freely all of their opinions and should not be censored, regardless of how horrible their ideas are. Those ideas should be challenged, ignored, and/or mocked, but they shouldn't be censored. In many other countries, this idea of freedom of speech does not exist, hence the idea of "hate speech," or language that must be shut down because it is offensive, hurtful, incorrect, etc. I think that's part of the disagreement you guys are having.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Im sorry I don't excuse an ideology that helped kill chunks of my family.

I'll say again - Marxism, not Soviet or communism. There's a difference here.

You said Marxism. Either you weren't talking about that, or you're not telling me something.