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I still find the sentiment amusing that GW would suddenly write incredible rules because they switched to IGOUGO.

"You are a horrible cook, your burgers taste like charcoal. Now go make me steak, it will be much better!"

For those talking of absurdity of the rules, it's important to note we do NOT know the full rules or if there will be some form of adjusted point cost yet (unlikely for standard bike and outrider units) but there could be. Alternatively there may be a tax on the HQ's with ravenwing, or black knights etc.

I'm quite interested to see what they do end up doing with and the synergy for the specialist Ravenwing and Deathwing units like the Darkshround, Dark talon, Deathwing Knights as well as things like Deathwing apothecaries and Ravenwing apothecaries for that matter...

On top of that, I do wonder if they will do something special for interrogator chaplains with different litanies.

I know some people are worried in terms of cheese, but I for one am very happy that Dark Angels seem to finally getting back to a point of having some proper flavour AND functionality again, where they usually only have one (the former).


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 Galas wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

Playing Yu-Gi-Oh without the hologram monsters did leave you with only an horrible TCG so actually thats a very appropiate comparison.


But I remember playing a full biker ork army making first turn charges with all of it in 8th without a problem so this is really no different. Quite the contrary, RW can't charge or shoot with the stratagem.

The ravenwing doctrine also seems to indicate that the units needs to advance to really gain the benefit of it also (and well, if you aren't advancing, you are just not using the doctrine), which means they cannot charge (without a stratagem which will most likely be there) which means only one unit making that first turn charge max if the strat is there. Just to note you will WANT to advance first turn with the bikes to gain the jink 4++ also. Obviously you can choose not to advance, and try get off a first turn charge, but then if those charges fail, which will be a possibility with the interaction of terrain and enemy deployment, your expensive army will be prime to be punished in the counter attack.

I think it may have actually been thought about quite carefully to limit a huge first round charge. I think common tactics will be to advance, shoot and weather the counter attack with the 4++ shooting and just standard durability in combat.

Synergies I talked about above with darkshrouds will also play their part (hopefully).

 Slowroll wrote:
Seems like Death Guard would not have the juice to take on large blocks of Necrons effectively.

For the Ravenwing, its still just bikes and speeders, not the hardest things to kill. Have Deathwatch bikers with obsec been doing much?

How much you have been using ravenwing? They are already pretty darn powerfull.

Interesting - while Ravenwing are RW only Deathwing can put up a few odd other units for point increases as a straight tax.

For all those thinking that you can just swarm the opponent with RW models turn one, let me warn you that you are sorely wrong.

They have 2 issues for that:

1) RW models are quite bad punchbags for the cost (none of them has invul saves in melee), and they have bad melee profiles.
The only exception are the outriders, but they suffer more from point 2 due to bigger bases.

2) Bike models don't climb walls. You can keep someone in their DZ with infantry, but with bikes it is much harder. Any terrain element will stop them.

Sure, they can be in range of their shooting weapons turn 1 but... so can any other bike...

All in all what the super doctrine does is giving them a -1 to attack in exchange for a 4++ the next turn. Which is nice.

Do we know what specific benefits this upgrade gives? Or are they just paying for the 'Deathwing' keyword?

While before you were able to induct certain members of your army into the Inner Circle by paying command points, now it merely costs a handful of points to unlock all of those wonderful Deathwing benefits.*

This indicates there is more to it than just a keyword.

I'm not sure I'm okay with GW decieding it's OK to hand out a can NoT be wounded on less than a 4+ ability to Vehicals as it's once again limiting the ability of anti tank weapons with low shot vount to be you know viable.

S9, S10 weapons enjoy bouncing of stuff more.
It's leaning bqck into spam as much mid S Decent AP shooting as you can weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we know what specific benefits this upgrade gives? Or are they just paying for the 'Deathwing' keyword?

Nothing extra that we know of so it seems to just be straight tax for getting support for obsec termies.


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Ice_can wrote:
I'm not sure I'm okay with GW decieding it's OK to hand out a can NoT be wounded on less than a 4+ ability to Vehicals as it's once again limiting the ability of anti tank weapons with low shot vount to be you know viable.

S9, S10 weapons enjoy bouncing of stuff more.
It's leaning bqck into spam as much mid S Decent AP shooting as you can weapons.

Only characters and Deathwing presently benefit from Inner Circle. We likely won't see vehicles with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:

While before you were able to induct certain members of your army into the Inner Circle by paying command points, now it merely costs a handful of points to unlock all of those wonderful Deathwing benefits.*

This indicates there is more to it than just a keyword.

Hmm, well, good point. Maybe they will get it though it could just be the characters and not the vehicles. Should be interesting.

In the index it states only models with the infantry keyword get the 4+ to wound minimum, which is needed really as some members of the ravenwing also have the inner circle ability.

I'd expect this to remain.

I wonder if the deathwing assault doctrine may be move and shoot without penalty to hit?

This would then stack with deep strike, deathwing assault and then fury of the first also, e.g. deep strike in and all shooting is 2+ to hit and +1 to wound.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The main problem is you can now basically have your cake and eat it too. Almost nothing stops units from pumping out their absolute maximum peak damage output besides death, and Stratagems and Auras allow you to massively increase that damage even further.

A space marine used to shoot 2 shots at 12 or 1 at 24, IF they didn't move - and no shooting those bolters if you want to charge! Now, the replacement to a tactical marine pumps out 2 shots with appreciable AP at 30" range, oh, and they can shoot, and charge, and they get 3 melee attacks on the charge vs the 1 of previous editions. But can they spend CP to shoot twice in one turn? You betcha!

An Ork had 3 attacks at S3 that went up to S4 on the charge. Also used to get a 4+ in cover. Now the way they're typically fielded it's 4, strength 4 all the time, and you can have your whole 30-block of boyz dump a second bucket of dice for 3CP.

This is real easy to demonstrate. Go make a list for 5th edition, and then run the exact same list in 9th on the same board (Shrunk down, obviously) and just see how many fewer turns there's any appreciable mass of units on the table.

I think your assessment is more true for 8th and less so for 9th.

I find I lose very little turn 1. Turn 2 varies depending on choices. Turn 3 is bloody if turn 2 wasn't. Then turns 4 and 5 everything becomes a situation of careful movements with each side trying to guard characters from being sniped in the open, keeping control of objectives, or making pushes for secondaries. And with the change to scoring for who goes second I haven't had a game end before turn 5 (it was occasionally turn 4 where they'd get called).

People might balk at the lower portion of a ruined building that doesn't cover my models still blocks LOS simply because it has a high point of 5" ( and it was classed it as Obscuring ), but it has huge consequences for how much of your army can be targeted by the entire field.

The combo-wombo is also slowly being neutered. There's still stacking nuttiness, but it is often limited by the fixed CP, army building choices, incremental costs for larger units, restrictions to CORE, and so on.

5th edition quad las pred would land 2 or 3 hits on a Trukk. Each with an 83% chance to pen and a 66% chance to take it out of the game. A glance had a 33%chance to make it useless or dead. At present that same predator couldn't really hope to take it or slow it down to less than 8" a turn and it has no option for rerolls. The only reason it didn't matter as much was because Trukks were less than 40 points. Yes - Eradicators - but a basic 3 man with no support just BARELY kills a Trukk and not at all if KFF is in effect.

And then if you got charged and slapped you basically had no recourse. Heaven forbid I5 marines or I7 eldar caught I2 orks who had zero chance of surviving a rout.

Difference is hyper-fragile vehicles like that typically cost 30-50 points in 5th while the Predator was about the same as it is in 9th, making that guaranteed kill a whole lot less efficient at removing your army from the board. A squad of trukk boyz with a klaw nob almost doubles in point cost.

the_scotsman wrote:
Difference is hyper-fragile vehicles like that typically cost 30-50 points in 5th while the Predator was about the same as it is in 9th, making that guaranteed kill a whole lot less efficient at removing your army from the board. A squad of trukk boyz with a klaw nob almost doubles in point cost.

Yea, but I think looking back on Warhammer can seem a bit rosier than it was. I personally don't think Warhammer has even been as dynamic as it is currently.

Remember when you could only shoot the closest unit if you failed your LD test?