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Deathguard is hitting the scene with heavy durability and crushing presence in melee, but little in the way to get somewhere fast. Ravenwing is getting obsec bikes with +3" move and shooting with any weapon even if they advanced (in Devastator). That means a 23" move and shoot. Additionally, they can push another unit 12" in for 1/2CP. I hope we see a similar setup for Saim Hann and Evil Sunz.

RW that go second could overwhelm your scoring position next turn, load apothecaries into impulsors for rezzing, and totally compromise your ability to get out of deployment as well as scoring on secondaries that don't see as much play. Do they have enough longevity?

DG plod along wrecking anything daring to get close and absorbing ridiculous punishment as well as potentially putting up a gatekeeper list with Morty.

Do you think you'll be able to handle both of these armies with the same list? How do you plan to do so?

I’ll be the guy playing RW so I’m curious what people plan to do about it.

Hey guys - this one is a spy!

Crazy Jay wrote:
I’ll be the guy playing RW so I’m curious what people plan to do about it.

If all else fails punch you in the stomach and steal your case?

Does seem a bit much IMO, particularly with the smaller boards we have in 9th. And do they really need the ability to shoot any weapon, then move an additional 12" for only 1CP?

DG, RW, something else.... My answer is always the same: Shoot them. A lot. And again.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Does seem a bit much IMO, particularly with the smaller boards we have in 9th. And do they really need the ability to shoot any weapon, then move an additional 12" for only 1CP?

if you move 12" you cant shoot or charge this turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Hey guys - this one is a spy!

Crazy Jay wrote:
I’ll be the guy playing RW so I’m curious what people plan to do about it.

If all else fails punch you in the stomach and steal your case?

I went upstairs to take a picture of my Ravenwing to post and show I’m not a spy. It wasn’t until I was taking the picture that it occurred to me that it actually proves I am the spy. It’s been a long day. But go on, discuss tactics like I’m not even here.

At a certain point why do we play on a board? This is something I legitimately have to ask at this point - when does 40k just become basically MTG with extra steps, where you line your units up on the board and just say

"X attacks Y"

"OK, Y is dead now. Z attacks X"

"X is dead. Eradicators, attack him directly in his life points!"

The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

the_scotsman wrote:


The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

Playing Yu-Gi-Oh without the hologram monsters did leave you with only an horrible TCG so actually thats a very appropiate comparison.


But I remember playing a full biker ork army making first turn charges with all of it in 8th without a problem so this is really no different. Quite the contrary, RW can't charge or shoot with the stratagem.

My strategy is to just wait a month or two until the next new thing totally displaces them. Rinse and repeat until people start to get exhausted.

DG doesn't even have to be slow if you want to add some of the FW fliers into the mix.

the_scotsman wrote:
At a certain point why do we play on a board? This is something I legitimately have to ask at this point - when does 40k just become basically MTG with extra steps, where you line your units up on the board and just say

"X attacks Y"

"OK, Y is dead now. Z attacks X"

"X is dead. Eradicators, attack him directly in his life points!"

The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

No, because your response or the opponent's response is in context of the current tablespace, available CP, the outcomes of the dice, each players list selection, placement of units, available obstruction of terrain, and the secondaries chosen.

I'm curious to think what your assessment of previous editions would be and why you think they're different or better than now with concrete examples.

I think it's wrong to access Dark Angels on Ravenwing alone. Their super doctrine works for Ravenwing in Devastator, Greenwing in Tactical, and Deathwing in Assault (I assume). So I'd expect more of a combined approach. Ravenwing rushes the board turn 1, Greenwing moves up turn 2 to take and hold objectives, then Deathwing comes in to mop up.

I like it. Think they finally got this "doctrines" stuff right.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hope we see a similar setup for Saim Hann and Evil Sunz.

But... they're not Marines... ?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I hope we see a similar setup for Saim Hann and Evil Sunz.

But... they're not Marines... ?

That's all it takes? So can I have my obsec Raptors and Warp Talons now?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That's all it takes? So can I have my obsec Raptors and Warp Talons now?

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I think it's wrong to access Dark Angels on Ravenwing alone. Their super doctrine works for Ravenwing in Devastator, Greenwing in Tactical, and Deathwing in Assault (I assume). So I'd expect more of a combined approach. Ravenwing rushes the board turn 1, Greenwing moves up turn 2 to take and hold objectives, then Deathwing comes in to mop up.

I like it. Think they finally got this "doctrines" stuff right.

Yea, it is legit nice to the old setup alive again even if I'll never play them.

 Galas wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

Playing Yu-Gi-Oh without the hologram monsters did leave you with only an horrible TCG so actually thats a very appropiate comparison.


But I remember playing a full biker ork army making first turn charges with all of it in 8th without a problem so this is really no different. Quite the contrary, RW can't charge or shoot with the stratagem.

At least Yugioh offers counterplay. 40k definitely has zero of that.

Seems like Death Guard would not have the juice to take on large blocks of Necrons effectively.

For the Ravenwing, its still just bikes and speeders, not the hardest things to kill. Have Deathwatch bikers with obsec been doing much?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That's all it takes? So can I have my obsec Raptors and Warp Talons now?

Spoiler:

Nahhh. It'll happen in 9th.....just in a supplement that's made obsolete when 10th is released 6 months later.

I really like that Ravenwing (and, presumably, Deathwing) can be taken as an army unto itself without the need to use alternate FoCs. I think that's a positive step for army list creation (unlike limiting weapon choices to the assembly instructions).

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's all it takes? So can I have my obsec Raptors and Warp Talons now?

"Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Abaddon, then you ain't a Marine!" - Roboute Guilliman

 Slowroll wrote:
Seems like Death Guard would not have the juice to take on large blocks of Necrons effectively.

They can make a unit that failed morale take attrition on a 1 through 4. They can also drop a -4LD on that unit to make them fail. Two flails can likely knock out 10 to 12 warriors on their own.

For the Ravenwing, its still just bikes and speeders, not the hardest things to kill. Have Deathwatch bikers with obsec been doing much?

Bikes and speeders blocking your move out or forcing your army to stay on one side of the table, being reasonably durable, and getting combat rezzed like Necrons by a Chief Apothecary. Add in Jink. DW doesn't have the same capacity to use bikes like this.

Back that up with Deathwing terminators with permanent transhuman (if that stays).

Against RW, infiltrating chaff is going to be critical. And if you don't have infiltrating chaff then you'll need a solid chaff line in your DZ and enough mobility to sweep them off the board. 9th Edition is a movement game, 17 inches first turn w/o advance is... absurd. Keep in mind that some DZs have 17 inch closest to closest points. (The 12" from center one comes to mind) The furthest DZs are still 24 inches away. So a line to line charge is 7". Bring a chappy with JP/canticles of hate, and that charge is very likely. Pulling further back isn't really an option because you would just cede the entire board to the DA player and allow them to threaten your home objectives with their obsec bikers. Even chaff is going to have a rough time because they are still bikers with TL bolt-guns. If there isn't proper spacing between chaff and priority targets they can just chew through both on their own between shooting and assault.

Funnily enough DG has some pretty good counters. They don't care about plasma, so DA ranged output is going to be mediocre. They have Don't-count-as-Charging Auras that can negate a bike rush. Terminators are sturdy and killy enough to soak a bike hit and kill the squad. Poxwalkers are excellent screening units. If they still have access to nurglings they will act as good infiltrating roadblocks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Slowroll wrote:
Seems like Death Guard would not have the juice to take on large blocks of Necrons effectively.

They can make a unit that failed morale take attrition on a 1 through 4. They can also drop a -4LD on that unit to make them fail. Two flails can likely knock out 10 to 12 warriors on their own.

For the Ravenwing, its still just bikes and speeders, not the hardest things to kill. Have Deathwatch bikers with obsec been doing much?

Bikes and speeders blocking your move out or forcing your army to stay on one side of the table, being reasonably durable, and getting combat rezzed like Necrons by a Chief Apothecary. Add in Jink. DW doesn't have the same capacity to use bikes like this.

Back that up with Deathwing terminators with permanent transhuman (if that stays).

Couldint you just drop pod the apothecary in and add extra junk in their deployment zone on top of the bikes?

 Argive wrote:
Couldint you just drop pod the apothecary in and add extra junk in their deployment zone on top of the bikes?

Yea - provided there is room, but most people won't let you in that easily.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At least Yugioh offers counterplay. 40k definitely has zero of that.

40k has counterplay. Sometimes you just have to bring it. If RW is up in your face and you don't have a way to exploit their likely sparse backfield then that's a choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vilehydra wrote:
Funnily enough DG has some pretty good counters. They don't care about plasma, so DA ranged output is going to be mediocre. They have Don't-count-as-Charging Auras that can negate a bike rush. Terminators are sturdy and killy enough to soak a bike hit and kill the squad. Poxwalkers are excellent screening units. If they still have access to nurglings they will act as good infiltrating roadblocks.

Yea I'm a bit more scared of DG since you're always forced to go to them. DG has to sacrifice to get Nurglings so I don't expect they'll be a thing anymore.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Deathguard is hitting the scene with heavy durability and crushing presence in melee, but little in the way to get somewhere fast. Ravenwing is getting obsec bikes with +3" move and shooting with any weapon even if they advanced (in Devastator). That means a 23" move and shoot. Additionally, they can push another unit 12" in for 1/2CP. I hope we see a similar setup for Saim Hann and Evil Sunz.

But then what are all those green tide Evil Sunz armies going to do? After all, they're the melee clan, right?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
At a certain point why do we play on a board? This is something I legitimately have to ask at this point - when does 40k just become basically MTG with extra steps, where you line your units up on the board and just say

"X attacks Y"

"OK, Y is dead now. Z attacks X"

"X is dead. Eradicators, attack him directly in his life points!"

The miniatures for the game are essentially becoming the rough equivalent of the monster holograms in the Yu-Gi-Oh TV show.

No, because your response or the opponent's response is in context of the current tablespace, available CP, the outcomes of the dice, each players list selection, placement of units, available obstruction of terrain, and the secondaries chosen.

I'm curious to think what your assessment of previous editions would be and why you think they're different or better than now with concrete examples.

If you actually want to know, I've played 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and now 9th.

7th and 9th share the most similarities in my eyes because they're essentially 'a slightly modified version of the previous edition, but with more egregious rules bloat.'

In 9th the effective range of most ranged units, the power and reliability of deep strike and the speed of mobile units coupled with the size of the game board and the only slightly improved terrain system from 8th has basically resulted in a game state where I feel that my gameplan is more fixed than basically ever before. Late 7th also had the same slathering of fifty special rules on the same set of units, but the accumulation more often resulted in hyperdurability than hyperdeadliness in 9th.

The major benefits of the 8th/9th paradigm are, in my eyes:

-Total removal of randomization elements from your army building. Good riddance to random psychic powers and warlord traits from 6th/7th.
-Universalization of the previous edition's layer of Special Marine Privilege Rules (Chapter Tactics). What a relief, no more marine favoritism!
-Removal of many of the previous editions' arbitrary breakpoints. Doubling toughness no longer instantly kills you, breaking AP no longer instantly removes your armor, getting into melee with a tank no longer degrades it to its rear armor, breaking 300 points with a unit no longer gives you All The Instadeath Rules, etc.
-At least in most of 8th, the durability of infantry isn't such that they hit the board for one single activation after getting out of their transport. Don't miss that from 5th thru 7th.

The main problem is you can now basically have your cake and eat it too. Almost nothing stops units from pumping out their absolute maximum peak damage output besides death, and Stratagems and Auras allow you to massively increase that damage even further.

A space marine used to shoot 2 shots at 12 or 1 at 24, IF they didn't move - and no shooting those bolters if you want to charge! Now, the replacement to a tactical marine pumps out 2 shots with appreciable AP at 30" range, oh, and they can shoot, and charge, and they get 3 melee attacks on the charge vs the 1 of previous editions. But can they spend CP to shoot twice in one turn? You betcha!

An Ork had 3 attacks at S3 that went up to S4 on the charge. Also used to get a 4+ in cover. Now the way they're typically fielded it's 4, strength 4 all the time, and you can have your whole 30-block of boyz dump a second bucket of dice for 3CP.

This is real easy to demonstrate. Go make a list for 5th edition, and then run the exact same list in 9th on the same board (Shrunk down, obviously) and just see how many fewer turns there's any appreciable mass of units on the table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Couldint you just drop pod the apothecary in and add extra junk in their deployment zone on top of the bikes?

Yea - provided there is room, but most people won't let you in that easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At least Yugioh offers counterplay. 40k definitely has zero of that.

40k has counterplay. Sometimes you just have to bring it. If RW is up in your face and you don't have a way to exploit their likely sparse backfield then that's a choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vilehydra wrote:
Funnily enough DG has some pretty good counters. They don't care about plasma, so DA ranged output is going to be mediocre. They have Don't-count-as-Charging Auras that can negate a bike rush. Terminators are sturdy and killy enough to soak a bike hit and kill the squad. Poxwalkers are excellent screening units. If they still have access to nurglings they will act as good infiltrating roadblocks.

Yea I'm a bit more scared of DG since you're always forced to go to them. DG has to sacrifice to get Nurglings so I don't expect they'll be a thing anymore.

Saying you have to correct your list is exactly the opposite of counter play LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what's hilarious with Dark Angels and their successors is that the codex is set up so that you can get whatever you want in terms of Chapter rules. Nothing is stopping you from choosing Stealthy and Hungry For Battle, for example, for your "Dark Angels". Who cares about Character access at that point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saying you have to correct your list is exactly the opposite of counter play LOL

I did say sometimes.

I look at 40K as a bit like a static Starcraft. The fog of war is in effect since you don't know what you're facing until you arrive at the table. Then say each side had a set amount of minerals/gas from which to select units with a handful of restrictions. You'd probably see things like people going all marines, stim, and medics acting as a sort of gatekeeper for people who neglected reavers or tanks or lurkers. Lists that truly go all comers might find someone that isn't spam, but leans into a counter might find their carriers sniped without returning a lot of damage.

The more tools in the tool chest the more variety can be expressed in the list. Now Warhammer doesn't have counters that can wipe out units like Starcraft (Colossus on a cliff versus marines) and there isn't a "move" away to avoid damage, because, well, there's limited time.

In any case when I come to the table and I face DA I have certain tools available and decisions available based on those tools. If I can read their plan I can make an attempt to move heavily into their deployment as they move into mine. If all I did was take as many 5 man Primaris units with characters as I could manage, well, that's going to be boring as gak to think about, but at least the nice thing about Warhammer is that it snatches tense moments even from the most boring lists.

Also what's hilarious with Dark Angels and their successors is that the codex is set up so that you can get whatever you want in terms of Chapter rules. Nothing is stopping you from choosing Stealthy and Hungry For Battle, for example, for your "Dark Angels". Who cares about Character access at that point?

I'll wait for the book to validate that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saying you have to correct your list is exactly the opposite of counter play LOL

I did say sometimes.

I look at 40K as a bit like a static Starcraft. The fog of war is in effect since you don't know what you're facing until you arrive at the table. Then say each side had a set amount of minerals/gas from which to select units with a handful of restrictions. You'd probably see things like people going all marines, stim, and medics acting as a sort of gatekeeper for people who neglected reavers or tanks or lurkers. Lists that truly go all comers might find someone that isn't spam, but leans into a counter might find their carriers sniped without returning a lot of damage.

The more tools in the tool chest the more variety can be expressed in the list. Now Warhammer doesn't have counters that can wipe out units like Starcraft (Colossus on a cliff versus marines) and there isn't a "move" away to avoid damage, because, well, there's limited time.

In any case when I come to the table and I face DA I have certain tools available and decisions available based on those tools. If I can read their plan I can make an attempt to move heavily into their deployment as they move into mine. If all I did was take as many 5 man Primaris units with characters as I could manage, well, that's going to be boring as gak to think about, but at least the nice thing about Warhammer is that it snatches tense moments even from the most boring lists.

Also what's hilarious with Dark Angels and their successors is that the codex is set up so that you can get whatever you want in terms of Chapter rules. Nothing is stopping you from choosing Stealthy and Hungry For Battle, for example, for your "Dark Angels". Who cares about Character access at that point?

I'll wait for the book to validate that.

Starcraft is a RTS game and your opponent doesn't wait for you to build all your units before they decide to die. Counter Play can't exist in 40k due to horrid balance and IGOUGO.

Oh and you don't need to wait for the Codex. Blood Angels and Space Wolves can pick whatever they want too.

the_scotsman wrote:
The main problem is you can now basically have your cake and eat it too. Almost nothing stops units from pumping out their absolute maximum peak damage output besides death, and Stratagems and Auras allow you to massively increase that damage even further.

A space marine used to shoot 2 shots at 12 or 1 at 24, IF they didn't move - and no shooting those bolters if you want to charge! Now, the replacement to a tactical marine pumps out 2 shots with appreciable AP at 30" range, oh, and they can shoot, and charge, and they get 3 melee attacks on the charge vs the 1 of previous editions. But can they spend CP to shoot twice in one turn? You betcha!

An Ork had 3 attacks at S3 that went up to S4 on the charge. Also used to get a 4+ in cover. Now the way they're typically fielded it's 4, strength 4 all the time, and you can have your whole 30-block of boyz dump a second bucket of dice for 3CP.

This is real easy to demonstrate. Go make a list for 5th edition, and then run the exact same list in 9th on the same board (Shrunk down, obviously) and just see how many fewer turns there's any appreciable mass of units on the table.

I think your assessment is more true for 8th and less so for 9th.

I find I lose very little turn 1. Turn 2 varies depending on choices. Turn 3 is bloody if turn 2 wasn't. Then turns 4 and 5 everything becomes a situation of careful movements with each side trying to guard characters from being sniped in the open, keeping control of objectives, or making pushes for secondaries. And with the change to scoring for who goes second I haven't had a game end before turn 5 (it was occasionally turn 4 where they'd get called).

People might balk at the lower portion of a ruined building that doesn't cover my models still blocks LOS simply because it has a high point of 5" ( and it was classed it as Obscuring ), but it has huge consequences for how much of your army can be targeted by the entire field.

The combo-wombo is also slowly being neutered. There's still stacking nuttiness, but it is often limited by the fixed CP, army building choices, incremental costs for larger units, restrictions to CORE, and so on.

5th edition quad las pred would land 2 or 3 hits on a Trukk. Each with an 83% chance to pen and a 66% chance to take it out of the game. A glance had a 33%chance to make it useless or dead. At present that same predator couldn't really hope to take it or slow it down to less than 8" a turn and it has no option for rerolls. The only reason it didn't matter as much was because Trukks were less than 40 points. Yes - Eradicators - but a basic 3 man with no support just BARELY kills a Trukk and not at all if KFF is in effect.

And then if you got charged and slapped you basically had no recourse. Heaven forbid I5 marines or I7 eldar caught I2 orks who had zero chance of surviving a rout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Starcraft is a RTS game and your opponent doesn't wait for you to build all your units before they decide to die. Counter Play can't exist in 40k due to horrid balance and IGOUGO.

Right - but in this scenario we can see how Starcraft suffers similar ills. IGOUGO is what it is. I have found a lot more resiliency in this edition over the last and I don't feel pressured to consider AA the only way out. I find "horrid" to be an overstatement.

Oh and you don't need to wait for the Codex. Blood Angels and Space Wolves can pick whatever they want too.

Fair enough! Though I don't think stealthy will matter as much and +1 charge won't help them if they're picking up the advance for jink and the strat forces them into an advance.