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 techsoldaten wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It's so funny when people think that people just need the situation EXPLAINED to them and then they will be like "Oh, GW intends it to be this way? Well now I am obviously completely happy with the situation! Because this is what GW intended! Thank you!"

Seriously, have a word with yourself. No one is "confused". What patronizing bollocks.

It's more like, 1/4 of the releases are Space Marines because those models drive interest in people picking up the game for the first time, we know some long-time players will see this as unfair and lose interest, we account for attrition by releasing new Space Marine models that will bring in new players to replace the ones who left.

If we did the same thing with, say, Slaanesh Daemons, there's a certain percentage of potential players who will never play because their moms are not going to pay for expensive plastic soldiers with claws and bare breasts. We use Space Marines because they are the least threatening of all the factions.

That's not meant to make you happy. But understanding reality is better than uninformed optimism that will never be satisfied.

"Uninformed Optimism" is a hell of a way to describe the general attitude on dakkadakka.

D'you think you might be dishonestly characterizing there?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
This seems like you're missing the point. The main complaint about Marines is that theyre overrepresented and oversupported, not necessarily that they're OP.
Since theyre overrepresented, people also overfocus on every standout unit and get called OP, especially if other armies have similar units that are simply outshined by SM ones (fire dragon vs eradicators for example.)

What does this have to do with all the options GK have lost over the years?

the_scotsman 796430 11063994 wrote:

Honestly...no, I don't actually buy that marines are 40% of all armies played overall.

Back when marines were king with 70% winrate in their best lists, competitive lists were around 33-36% marines.

I wasn't talking about tournament break downs, although if a faction is not that strong but still gets played a lot in tournaments, it does show a sign of a dedicated community.

So which faction people think is the big money makers and most played in w40k? Because one would expect that the popular army would be getting the biggest number of new models, as the market of people to sell them to, would be the largest.

If we did the same thing with, say, Slaanesh Daemons, there's a certain percentage of potential players who will never play because their moms are not going to pay for expensive plastic soldiers with claws and bare breasts. We use Space Marines because they are the least threatening of all the factions

I don't get this logic. Every other w40k faction is good, has real fans, real supporters that really want to play the army, and cores for its rules and lore.
Marines on the other hand are a faction that is either played by some super WAAC types, if they happen to have a good set of rules for any of the marine factions, or kids who don't know it yet. Why can't there be a large base of people who like the marine esthetics, like the models, like the diverse lists they can builds, like their lore etc.

No, people know that marines make up 40% of the armies being played, thats exactly where to complaining comes from. A single subfaction (with 3 sub subfactions) makes up almost half of all played armies and most of the model/rules support.

Jesus, so now marines are not even a faction, but a sub faction with sub factions. But let me guess, orks or tau are an actual faction, not just a sub faction of the xeno faction?

And how can you claim that they make up most of the model/rules support, when both in 8th and in 9th, they were never the best army, and model wise there were whole factions or subfactions, what ever you want to call them, put out by GW. DG got a new model line, as did SoB, adeptus mechanicus got new stuff, knights got multiple new kits. All marines are getting is primaris stuff, because GW decided way before 8th ed, that they want to reset the whole space marine line. If someone likes to play termintor DW army in 8th, and actual subfaction of marines, they got no actual new models for their army, unless we count the limited edition chaplain and librarian, and the impossible to get marine models from japan. That is less support then my GK, who at least got Voldus re released without Cawl and Gulliman in 8th ed.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
This seems like you're missing the point. The main complaint about Marines is that theyre overrepresented and oversupported, not necessarily that they're OP.
Since theyre overrepresented, people also overfocus on every standout unit and get called OP, especially if other armies have similar units that are simply outshined by SM ones (fire dragon vs eradicators for example.)

What does this have to do with all the options GK have lost over the years?

i was answering to your sarcasm about ALL power armor being considered OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Jesus, so now marines are not even a faction, but a sub faction with sub factions. But let me guess, orks or tau are an actual faction, not just a sub faction of the xeno faction?

Orks and tau cannot be taken in the same army so "Xenos" has no real baggage when compared to "Imperium".

Factions are a regroupement of units that can be taken together at the highest level.

Imperium (Faction) -> Space marines (Subfaction) -> Ultramarines(SubSubfaction)
Xenos(Nothing) -> Orks (Faction) -> Deathskulls (Subfaction)
Xenos(Nothing) -> Tau (Faction) -> Farsight enclaves (Subfaction)

Karol wrote:

And how can you claim that they make up most of the model/rules support, when both in 8th and in 9th, they were never the best army, and model wise there were whole factions or subfactions, what ever you want to call them, put out by GW. DG got a new model line, as did SoB, adeptus mechanicus got new stuff, knights got multiple new kits. All marines are getting is primaris stuff, because GW decided way before 8th ed, that they want to reset the whole space marine line. If someone likes to play termintor DW army in 8th, and actual subfaction of marines, they got no actual new models for their army, unless we count the limited edition chaplain and librarian, and the impossible to get marine models from japan. That is less support then my GK, who at least got Voldus re released without Cawl and Gulliman in 8th ed.

because they do? Theyre the army that consistently gets the most releases, its not about their powerlevel, they could be litterally (and i mean litterally like that custodes and sister of silence combo) unplayable and they would still be the army with the most model/rules support.

DG, SoB, Admech, Knights are all separate factions, you can't put all of them in the same basket and say "But look! SM have equal less support than other armies!".

And i agree that for someone hellbent on playing deathwing in 8th they would have gotten no support for their specific list. Doesn't change the fact that all these new Primaris units were still added to their army, just because they elected not to play a list that doesnt include them doesnt mean their army got no support.

Karol wrote:

And how can you claim that they make up most of the model/rules support, when both in 8th and in 9th, they were never the best army

Just out of pure morbid peek-in-the-curtain-at-the-circus curiosity, I HAVE to know how you logically justify this statement here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

DG, SoB, Admech, Knights are all separate factions, you can't put all of them in the same basket and say "But look! SM have equal less support than other armies!".

Subfactions.

By your definition above.

(I think your defininition here is silly, honestly.)

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

DG, SoB, Admech, Knights are all separate factions, you can't put all of them in the same basket and say "But look! SM have equal less support than other armies!".

Subfactions.

By your definition above.

(I think your defininition here is silly, honestly.)

yeah, i got mixed up in the levels.

I think my definition makes sense tho. Space marines can ally with Admech so theyre both part of the same "Faction". Orks can't ally with tau so theyre not part of the same "Faction", but they are part of the same "Superfaction"(xenos).

Its basically about levels of compatibility in my eyes.

Karol wrote:

If we did the same thing with, say, Slaanesh Daemons, there's a certain percentage of potential players who will never play because their moms are not going to pay for expensive plastic soldiers with claws and bare breasts. We use Space Marines because they are the least threatening of all the factions

I don't get this logic. Every other w40k faction is good, has real fans, real supporters that really want to play the army, and cores for its rules and lore.
Marines on the other hand are a faction that is either played by some super WAAC types, if they happen to have a good set of rules for any of the marine factions, or kids who don't know it yet. Why can't there be a large base of people who like the marine esthetics, like the models, like the diverse lists they can builds, like their lore etc.

It's not about the size of the following. That's just what keeps any given faction from being squatted.

GW has an interest in keeping Space Marines at the forefront of the hobby. Think about it. How many people do you know who started playing in their teens? How many could afford to buy an army on their own without help from their parents?

If I told my mother to get me a box of Daemons and some paint from Games Workshop, she would have encouraged me to pick up a new hobby. If I told her Space Marines, she probably would not have minded.

If GW can't hook you before you turn 25, odds are you will never buy their stuff. If they do get you hooked, odds are they will have you as a customer for a long time.

My hypothesis is this drives a lot of decisions about rules and models. They don't want Xenos becoming so awesome players would flock to those armies, they want the popular army to be somewhat familiar and unoffensive on the surface. So we don't see as many releases, but Marines are always getting awesome stuff.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And i agree that for someone hellbent on playing deathwing in 8th they would have gotten no support for their specific list. Doesn't change the fact that all these new Primaris units were still added to their army, just because they elected not to play a list that doesnt include them doesnt mean their army got no support.

Yet we have people complaining that mono-god Daemon builds aren't viable and people, aside from myself, rarely say this to them so this feels like a double standard.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

DG, SoB, Admech, Knights are all separate factions, you can't put all of them in the same basket and say "But look! SM have equal less support than other armies!".

Subfactions.

By your definition above.

(I think your defininition here is silly, honestly.)

yeah, i got mixed up in the levels.

I think my definition makes sense tho. Space marines can ally with Admech so theyre both part of the same "Faction". Orks can't ally with tau so theyre not part of the same "Faction", but they are part of the same "Superfaction"(xenos).

Its basically about levels of compatibility in my eyes.

I'm going to be level with you: I think you've made up your classification system specifically so you can call space marines a "subfaction" and that feels good.

Space Marines are a faction. They have their own codex. The various subcategories of space marines are subfactions except for Grey Knights - they use the core codex, they just happen to have enough content within each of them to be contained within their own separate supplement books.

The only distinction between Space Wolves and Cadians is scale - cadians have a half dozen unique units, Space Wolves have..ten, or twelve or whatever they have, and GW added a bunch more warlord traits and psychic powers and stratagems to justify making them buy their own book.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And i agree that for someone hellbent on playing deathwing in 8th they would have gotten no support for their specific list. Doesn't change the fact that all these new Primaris units were still added to their army, just because they elected not to play a list that doesnt include them doesnt mean their army got no support.

Yet we have people complaining that mono-god Daemon builds aren't viable and people, aside from myself, rarely say this to them so this feels like a double standard.

Given the way the daemon codex is subdivided into what is in essence the same level of division that exists between Adepta Sororitas and Space Wolves, I don't think it is.

......Also, complaining that mono-god daemon builds aren't viable these days would be what the kids call a "hot take" I think.

The website division of Space Marines being their own "super faction" is very recent. They used to be, and have been for many decades, been categorized as Imperium.

I think that the division of factions on the website has more to do with guiding consumers to their chosen poison, than 'the facts on the ground'.

Space Marines are part of the Imperium superfaction, they simply have so many models that it makes sense to give them their own section of the store.

The only other superfactions in the game (as far as I can recall) are Aeldari, Chaos.....and the Hivemind (?)

Xenos is not a superfaction, just a convenient catchall for "the other guys" on the GW website.

Karol wrote:


All marines are getting is primaris stuff, because GW decided way before 8th ed, that they want to reset the whole space marine line.

Whether YOU like them or not, Primaris ARE marine releases. You don't get to ignore them because you don't like them. I'm with you because I'd like to see GW release some new Old Marine kits, just to shut people up. But a Primaris release DOES count as a Marine release, whether you like Primaris or not.

Karol wrote:

If someone likes to play termintor DW army in 8th, and actual subfaction of marines, they got no actual new models for their army, unless we count the limited edition chaplain and librarian, and the impossible to get marine models from japan. That is less support then my GK, who at least got Voldus re released without Cawl and Gulliman in 8th ed.

In 9th, 3 new types of Kill Teams were added to DW to reflect the 3 types of Primaris armour (Regular Primaris = Fortis, Gravis = Indomitor and Phobos = Spectrus). So your guy who just wants to play Terminators? Yeah, he's going to feel bad because he didn't get a shiny new bespoke DW Terminator crew, but he can't say he gets no new models- he's getting some going on Prerelease this Saturday, because whether he WANTS to or not, he is ALLOWED to use BOTH the Gravis Captain and the Heavy Intercessors in his DW army; he can even make the Heavy Intercessors part of an Indomitor Kill Team so that they end up with special rules unique to Death Watch which other Heavy Intercessors don't get.

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:

If someone likes to play termintor DW army in 8th, and actual subfaction of marines, they got no actual new models for their army, unless we count the limited edition chaplain and librarian, and the impossible to get marine models from japan. That is less support then my GK, who at least got Voldus re released without Cawl and Gulliman in 8th ed.

In 9th, 3 new types of Kill Teams were added to DW to reflect the 3 types of Primaris armour (Regular Primaris = Fortis, Gravis = Indomitor and Phobos = Spectrus). So your guy who just wants to play Terminators? Yeah, he's going to feel bad because he didn't get a shiny new bespoke DW Terminator crew, but he can't say he gets no new models- he's getting some going on Prerelease this Saturday, because whether he WANTS to or not, he is ALLOWED to use BOTH the Gravis Captain and the Heavy Intercessors in his DW army; he can even make the Heavy Intercessors part of an Indomitor Kill Team so that they end up with special rules unique to Death Watch which other Heavy Intercessors don't get.

I think in this case DW means Deathwing.

 Eldarsif wrote:
The website division of Space Marines being their own "super faction" is very recent. They used to be, and have been for many decades, been categorized as Imperium.

Also, it's utterly silly to be basing the definition of what is a faction and what is a subfaction based on the structure of the online webstore vs how their rules actually work in the game.

It's clear that there's factions, the groupings of units you can legally create a detachment out of, and subfactions, the groupings of units that grant an army-wide special rule if the entire detachment is composed of them. And then there are the larger "superfactions" or whatever you want to call them, that dictate other factions you can legally compose a battleforged army from with detachments - Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, Tyranids.

Some factions have only a single subfaction, with no choices, like Death Guard, and some units can only belong to one subfaction, like Tempestus Scions, Freebootas, Aun'Va, or Deathwatch Veterans.

There is no "Xenos" in the actual game. It mostly exists as a term for people to use to either ask for something, anything other than a space marine, or to claim that because soemthing has been released for anything other than a space marine, people who play a totally unrelated faction should be happy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:

If someone likes to play termintor DW army in 8th, and actual subfaction of marines, they got no actual new models for their army, unless we count the limited edition chaplain and librarian, and the impossible to get marine models from japan. That is less support then my GK, who at least got Voldus re released without Cawl and Gulliman in 8th ed.

In 9th, 3 new types of Kill Teams were added to DW to reflect the 3 types of Primaris armour (Regular Primaris = Fortis, Gravis = Indomitor and Phobos = Spectrus). So your guy who just wants to play Terminators? Yeah, he's going to feel bad because he didn't get a shiny new bespoke DW Terminator crew, but he can't say he gets no new models- he's getting some going on Prerelease this Saturday, because whether he WANTS to or not, he is ALLOWED to use BOTH the Gravis Captain and the Heavy Intercessors in his DW army; he can even make the Heavy Intercessors part of an Indomitor Kill Team so that they end up with special rules unique to Death Watch which other Heavy Intercessors don't get.

I think in this case DW means Deathwing.

I think you're right, which is weird, because there were in fact several new models added in 8th/9th that are DEATHWING. Even in Karol's own example, you have to willfully ignore the fact that GW did in fact give Deathwing specifically access to bladeguard veterans, Repulsors, Gravis captains and i think some of the infiltrating troops (?)

 LunarSol wrote:


I think in this case DW means Deathwing.

Ahhh. Yeah, that makes way more sense. I've got Death Watch on the brain because I'm actually considering getting KT for the Heavy Intercessors for my Indomitor team...

Peril of too many acronyms...

 footfoe wrote:
There seems to be some confusion about this idea in the community. Space marines get a little over 1/4 of all releases, and this confuses and angers some people. This must be based on the misconception that there are 3 super factionsl in the game (imperium, chaos, and xenos). But that is blatantly false.

Take a moment and head to the GW store. Check out the Sigmar section first, and notice how the models are divided 4 ways. (order, destruction, chaos, and death). 4 super factions. Now go to 40k. There are also 4 categories laid out in the exact same way. (space marines, imperium, chaos, and xenos). Space marines are not listed under imperium. Do not confuse this with the in game keyword. Space marines are NOT a subfaction of imperium, but a super faction of their own, complete with about as many sub factions as the other super factions.

Space marines gets about as many releases as it should get based on this. This is intentional, and how it has been for literal decades.

This is the funniest cope ever, especially since no one in AoS community actually views releases by Grand Alliance, and GW itself pretty much capitulated from the idea that people will run some huge, amalgamated Alliance army instead of individual battletomes.
Don't drag AoS into 40k's horrible release schedule, darling

the_scotsman wrote:
The only distinction between Space Wolves and Cadians is scale - cadians have a half dozen unique units, Space Wolves have..ten, or twelve or whatever they have, and GW added a bunch more warlord traits and psychic powers and stratagems to justify making them buy their own book.

As I have both books to hand, I thought I'd check the numbers.

3 (Creed, Kell, Pask) plays 29 (no, I'm not listing them here, but I just counted the datasheets in the book), but who's going for accuracy here?

the_scotsman wrote:
I think you're right, which is weird, because there were in fact several new models added in 8th/9th that are DEATHWING. Even in Karol's own example, you have to willfully ignore the fact that GW did in fact give Deathwing specifically access to bladeguard veterans, Repulsors, Gravis captains and i think some of the infiltrating troops (?)

I know the new SM and/or DA 'dex gives the DEATHWING keyword to certain units by default - and you can pay to give it to others as an option - but I don't recall that being a thing in 8th, which is what Karol was talking about. Another poster dragged 9th into the comparison, not Karol, so if we're being fair to him for some reason, he might actually be right...

 Dysartes wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The only distinction between Space Wolves and Cadians is scale - cadians have a half dozen unique units, Space Wolves have..ten, or twelve or whatever they have, and GW added a bunch more warlord traits and psychic powers and stratagems to justify making them buy their own book.

As I have both books to hand, I thought I'd check the numbers.

3 (Creed, Kell, Pask) plays 29 (no, I'm not listing them here, but I just counted the datasheets in the book), but who's going for accuracy here?

the_scotsman wrote:
I think you're right, which is weird, because there were in fact several new models added in 8th/9th that are DEATHWING. Even in Karol's own example, you have to willfully ignore the fact that GW did in fact give Deathwing specifically access to bladeguard veterans, Repulsors, Gravis captains and i think some of the infiltrating troops (?)

I know the new SM and/or DA 'dex gives the DEATHWING keyword to certain units by default - and you can pay to give it to others as an option - but I don't recall that being a thing in 8th, which is what Karol was talking about. Another poster dragged 9th into the comparison, not Karol, so if we're being fair to him for some reason, he might actually be right...

The 8th edition DA codex definitely added DEATHWING to some unit or another. I recall the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MB on the numbers. Point still stands, though - Space Wolves is no different in gameplay terms from Cadian, except that Space Wolves have a larger number of unique units, strats, warlord traits, etc than Cadians do. You still take <Chapter> and pick SPACE WOLVES and gain benefits based on that.

TechSoldaten: What gives you the impression that I don't understand the reasons why Space Marines are the lead faction? Or the impression that I am optimistic about that changing?

Seriously, what did I say that made you think that? It seems to me you took that stance purely so you could be condescending. Might want to cut that out, eh?

Same to you Karol. Obviously we know why GW pushes Space Marines. It's not a mystery. We know all about it.

Knowing and understanding stuff doesn't make you happy about it. I studied tumour biology for my degree, it didn't make me happy about tumours.

PenitentJake wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


I think in this case DW means Deathwing.

Ahhh. Yeah, that makes way more sense. I've got Death Watch on the brain because I'm actually considering getting KT for the Heavy Intercessors for my Indomitor team...

Peril of too many acronyms...

I know it all too well playing Deathwatch primarily. I've gotten very used to scouring the acronym for context.

 harlokin wrote:
To a certain extent, I don't care about SM releases. What pisses me off is the combination of no releases with 'no model no rules'.

I get that Drukhari are very much a minority faction, and there isn't much money to be had in making new stuff for them. But if they aren't a money spinner, then why be so fething precious about models for them? I would be more than happy to kitbash an Archon on a bike, or with wings, or a Venom with a Blaster, or heaven forbid a Baron Sathonyx...GW could even do articles on how to do so with the stuff they already sell.

^^^

This is part one of the "big" problem with the modern SM release schedule.

No one who's reasonably familiar with 40k expects a race like Dark Eldar, or even xenos at large, to get a release schedule on par with SM. That's something we've come to expect and, in its own way, can be a relief. There's far less of a keeping-up aspect to collecting xenos races, which can allow for a slower pace. However it becomes an issue when, in modern times, it finally being "your turn" means that you end up losing options. No-Model No-Rules has seen non-SM codex & factions losing more options each time they're revisited. The Dark Eldar range is now pathetically restricted, what with the richest and most eccentric leaders apparently refusing to do anything but foot slog with a gun and a pistol.

The second "big" problem is power.

SM have basically crushed the competitive scene for the last three editions.The most recent SM dex, and the short-term dex before it, have been some of the most power creeped codex's we've ever seen. To the point where SM not only are they the power players on the competitive scene, but their casual lists are incredibly potent. Non-SM armies need to bring optimized and competitive lists just to hold their own against a random assortments of SM units / or fluffy lists, and those who dare play a fluffy list into SM are mercilessly curb-stomped.

The net result is that SM eat up the lion's share of the releases (fine, whatever). Other armies actively lose options whenever GW visits them, while SM have mountains of overlap and similar units (pretty uncool). And non-SM factions are pigeonholed into playing specifically gimmicky / powerful lists to compete with even 'low tier' SM lists, less then be reduced to nothing but cannon fodder mooks for the setting protagonists.

It's the sort of thing which understandably leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Ok wait, I was with you until the second part of the post.

I agree with the 8.5 SM dex being all kind of OP, but the 9th one is generally regarded as a mild nerf over their previous incarnation.

Also, they are in no way dominating the game competitvely, and have so many trap options that a casual marine list isn't exactly that scary for another casual list. They may have 100+ datasheets but only a really small part of them gets used.

Spoletta wrote:
Ok wait, I was with you until the second part of the post.

I agree with the 8.5 SM dex being all kind of OP, but the 9th one is generally regarded as a mild nerf over their previous incarnation.

Also, they are in no way dominating the game competitvely, and have so many trap options that a casual marine list isn't exactly that scary for another casual list. They may have 100+ datasheets but only a really small part of them gets used.

Ok, I'll bite. What loyalist units do you consider to be "trap options"?

 harlokin wrote:
To a certain extent, I don't care about SM releases. What pisses me off is the combination of no releases with 'no model no rules'.

I get that Drukhari are very much a minority faction, and there isn't much money to be had in making new stuff for them. But if they aren't a money spinner, then why be so fething precious about models for them? I would be more than happy to kitbash an Archon on a bike, or with wings, or a Venom with a Blaster, or heaven forbid a Baron Sathonyx...GW could even do articles on how to do so with the stuff they already sell.

So very much THIS. I mean fine, SM is the cash cow and apparently only SM sell so lord knows they cannot do one single all new DE miniature for the 9E codex. Fine. But then why not do the above? Why not give some units and rules where you do simple kitbashes to achieve them? It is just so dang frustrating.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Ok wait, I was with you until the second part of the post.

I agree with the 8.5 SM dex being all kind of OP, but the 9th one is generally regarded as a mild nerf over their previous incarnation.

Also, they are in no way dominating the game competitvely, and have so many trap options that a casual marine list isn't exactly that scary for another casual list. They may have 100+ datasheets but only a really small part of them gets used.

Ok, I'll bite. What loyalist units do you consider to be "trap options"?

This will vary by subfaction but, off the top of my head,

-Tactical Marines
-Assault Marines
-Scouts
-Repulsors
-Tech Marines
-Half the Named Characters
-Land Speeder Storms
-Reivers
-Vanguard Veterans
-Normal Dreads when Compared to Specialist Dreads
-Land Speeders in General
-Storm Speeders
-Land Raiders of all kinds
-Thunderhawks
-Every LoW Aside from Gulliman
-Every Fortification
-Impulsors
-Predators
-Any Dedicated AA Vehicle
-Every Flyer except the Dark Talon

Yeah, there are a lot of units that range from bad to merely inefficient and I didn't even start on the chapter-specific units that can be duds.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It's so funny when people think that people just need the situation EXPLAINED to them and then they will be like "Oh, GW intends it to be this way? Well now I am obviously completely happy with the situation! Because this is what GW intended! Thank you!"

Seriously, have a word with yourself. No one is "confused". What patronizing bollocks.

It's more like, 1/4 of the releases are Space Marines because those models drive interest in people picking up the game for the first time, we know some long-time players will see this as unfair and lose interest, we account for attrition by releasing new Space Marine models that will bring in new players to replace the ones who left.

If we did the same thing with, say, Slaanesh Daemons, there's a certain percentage of potential players who will never play because their moms are not going to pay for expensive plastic soldiers with claws and bare breasts. We use Space Marines because they are the least threatening of all the factions.

That's not meant to make you happy. But understanding reality is better than uninformed optimism that will never be satisfied.

Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps? They release Space Marines, this drives interest so they release more marines which drives interest etc. If you then have something crap to compare it to (such as no new Tyranids in 7 years) that makes Marines look even more appealing to new players.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Ok wait, I was with you until the second part of the post.

I agree with the 8.5 SM dex being all kind of OP, but the 9th one is generally regarded as a mild nerf over their previous incarnation.

Also, they are in no way dominating the game competitvely, and have so many trap options that a casual marine list isn't exactly that scary for another casual list. They may have 100+ datasheets but only a really small part of them gets used.

Ok, I'll bite. What loyalist units do you consider to be "trap options"?

This will vary by subfaction but, off the top of my head,

-Tactical Marines
-Assault Marines
-Scouts
-Repulsors
-Tech Marines
-Half the Named Characters
-Land Speeder Storms
-Reivers
-Vanguard Veterans
-Normal Dreads when Compared to Specialist Dreads
-Land Speeders in General
-Storm Speeders
-Land Raiders of all kinds
-Thunderhawks
-Every LoW Aside from Gulliman
-Every Fortification
-Impulsors
-Predators
-Any Dedicated AA Vehicle
-Every Flyer except the Dark Talon

Yeah, there are a lot of units that range from bad to merely inefficient and I didn't even start on the chapter-specific units that can be duds.

Ok, how many of those are actually "bad" instead of just "bad for loyalists"? Yeah, Thunderhawks and the like, but Vanguard Veterans? Those show up in top placing tournament lists. And normal dreadnoughts "when compared to specialist dreadnoughts" just sounds like specialist dreads are better, not that normal dreads are bad. Remember, we're talking casual, not hard-core tournament lists here. "Merely inefficient" isn't the same as "bad" in a casual game.

I have normal dreads that can ignore LoS, and I can tell you that if they fail the ignore LoS spell they are bad. A lot worse then the plasma primaris dreads too.

And inefficient very much is bad, when you have 5+ other options you can take instead of the unit, then it very much slips in to the bad cathegory.


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petrov27 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
To a certain extent, I don't care about SM releases. What pisses me off is the combination of no releases with 'no model no rules'.

I get that Drukhari are very much a minority faction, and there isn't much money to be had in making new stuff for them. But if they aren't a money spinner, then why be so fething precious about models for them? I would be more than happy to kitbash an Archon on a bike, or with wings, or a Venom with a Blaster, or heaven forbid a Baron Sathonyx...GW could even do articles on how to do so with the stuff they already sell.

So very much THIS. I mean fine, SM is the cash cow and apparently only SM sell so lord knows they cannot do one single all new DE miniature for the 9E codex. Fine. But then why not do the above? Why not give some units and rules where you do simple kitbashes to achieve them? It is just so dang frustrating.

Because then 3ed party companies could start making models for the unit and in GW eyes they would be losing money? So it is safter to limit the number of units being put out.

 harlokin wrote:
To a certain extent, I don't care about SM releases. What pisses me off is the combination of no releases with 'no model no rules'.

Because GW doesn't want people to kit bash stuff? I know this falls in to yours , I don't care about SM way of thinking. But Primaris players could also ask why, when the chaplain on outridder bike exist, they can't just kitbash Lt or Capts or librarians or bikes too. Same with waiting for jet packs since the RG special character got his.

SM have basically crushed the competitive scene for the last three editions.

Now I can't talk about 7th ed, but 8th ed was not very marine friendly up until the 2.0 sm codex came out. And in 9th there are more powerful lists then the most powerful sm list, and most marines sit in the middle with multiple other factions. So I don't know where you see the crushing happen. The data delivered by the Goons does not seem to support it in anywa.


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the_scotsman 796430 11064032 wrote:

Just out of pure morbid peek-in-the-curtain-at-the-circus curiosity, I HAVE to know how you logically justify this statement here.

Aside for the very short lived Gulliman lists, for most of 8th ed, marines were no where near the top army. Tau and various forms of eldar were winning a lot more events. And if marines were winning anything it was lists like the 15 scouts 2 BA captins with bucket of IG and a castellan, being counted as a marine list.

Karol wrote:
I have normal dreads that can ignore LoS, and I can tell you that if they fail the ignore LoS spell they are bad. A lot worse then the plasma primaris dreads too.

And inefficient very much is bad, when you have 5+ other options you can take instead of the unit, then it very much slips in to the bad cathegory.

No, having a good unit, and 5+ more that are better, isn't a bad thing. The current loyalist codex has pretty good internal balance, and I'm hoping we see more of that as other codexes are released. So far they've been doing pretty good.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, how many of those are actually "bad" instead of just "bad for loyalists"?

Most of them.

but Vanguard Veterans? Those show up in top placing tournament lists.

In specific subfactions they're excellent, in others they're dead weight that just doesn't synergize with any of your special rules.

And normal dreadnoughts "when compared to specialist dreadnoughts" just sounds like specialist dreads are better, not that normal dreads are bad.

That's like saying Teddy Bridgewater is a good QB. Sure, compared to a college QB or even most CFL QBs he is, but by NFL standards he's below average, and if you had the choice between him and any of the 21 better-rated QBs in the league you'd almost certainly want to take one of them (not accounting for systems fits of course, but you get the idea).

Remember, we're talking casual, not hard-core tournament lists here. "Merely inefficient" isn't the same as "bad" in a casual game.

It's not the end of the world in a casual list but most of the units I listed are objectively worse than other options in any list to the point where taking them should only happen if your collection is limited, you need a handicap versus a bad army/unskilled opponent, or you really like the model. Taking them for any other reason is almost certain to be objectively wrong and that makes the units I listed bad.