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Right behind you.

It's an easy mistake to make, since it was a FW list alongside of the Tyrant's Legion(which literally came in books with Renegade Chapters) and people would sometimes use them interchangeably for some reason.

On topic...it's been funny that people insist that "old marines" had no life still to them. Primaris are the focus for Loyalists, not the CSM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 15:27:22


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
It's an easy mistake to make, since it was a FW list alongside of the Tyrant's Legion(which literally came in books with Renegade Chapters) and people would sometimes use them interchangeably for some reason.

On topic...it's been funny that people insist that "old marines" had no life still to them. Primaris are the focus for Loyalists, not the CSM.

Indeed. And if those marines have been "upsized" to the same scale as the current CSM models they could offer an alternative to someone wanting some CSM with a bit less "bling" on them.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
On topic...it's been funny that people insist that "old marines" had no life still to them. Primaris are the focus for Loyalists, not the CSM.
When people talk about First Born going away, they're not talking about Chaos Marines. Somehow I suspect you knew that, but chose to be dishonest about it anyway.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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I don't think Kan was being dishonest- he was responding to one of my quotes, and my ignorance has been revealed.

It's reasonable to believe a chaos newb like me might be unaware of the distinction.
   
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Old Marines were never going away. Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out. Looks like all the people who claimed old Marines were going to legends/phasing out ( which is ALOT of people on Dakka, probably at least 60-75% of the Dakka forum userbase judging by the pages and pages and pages of these wild claims since Primaris first came out ) just got proven wrong. Looks like old Marines are here to stay, and I was one of the people trying to tell everyone old Marines weren't going anywhere, but not many on Dakka listened and said I was wrong. How about them Apples?
   
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 Black Knight wrote:
...Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out...


Because of how much of WHFB went away to make way for the Sigmarines, maybe?

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Right behind you.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Black Knight wrote:
...Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out...


Because of how much of WHFB went away to make way for the Sigmarines, maybe?

You mean none?

Stormcast didn't replace Wood Elves. They didn't replace High Elves. They didn't replace Bretonnians. They didn't replace Tomb Kings.

I get that it's in fashion to spew garbage, meme-ridden arguments like "They deleted WHFB for Sigmarines!"...but they aren't true.

Also saying "Sigmarines" makes you automatically not worth discussing things with.
   
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 Black Knight wrote:
Old Marines were never going away. Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out. Looks like all the people who claimed old Marines were going to legends/phasing out ( which is ALOT of people on Dakka, probably at least 60-75% of the Dakka forum userbase judging by the pages and pages and pages of these wild claims since Primaris first came out ) just got proven wrong. Looks like old Marines are here to stay, and I was one of the people trying to tell everyone old Marines weren't going anywhere, but not many on Dakka listened and said I was wrong. How about them Apples?


Those seem pretty fanciful apples, to be honest. 'Hasn't happened yet' is not the same as 'won't happen.'
Once the Primaris line has filled all the same holes and slots as the old marines, lets see what the codex after that looks like, yeah?

Practically speaking, we just got the tanks and things at the beginning of this year, and heavy tacticals (sorry 'intercessors') got a separate release just a month ago - the transitional period isn't quite over.


One of GW's biggest challenges for the last 2 years (or longer) has been maintaining stock levels. Not having to keep up with the ~100+ kits for space marines alone would help that a lot.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 00:15:09


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
You mean none?
Now you are being dishonest.

Tomb King and Bret players send their regards.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Black Knight wrote:
...Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out...


Because of how much of WHFB went away to make way for the Sigmarines, maybe?

You mean none?

Stormcast didn't replace Wood Elves. They didn't replace High Elves. They didn't replace Bretonnians. They didn't replace Tomb Kings.

I get that it's in fashion to spew garbage, meme-ridden arguments like "They deleted WHFB for Sigmarines!"...but they aren't true.

Also saying "Sigmarines" makes you automatically not worth discussing things with.


I can say "Stormcast Eternals" if using a nickname rather than the copyrighted name on the front of the army book offends you. I can even say "Aelves" if you want.

No, there isn't a 1-1 replacement algorithm where each army got explicitly dropped and turned into something different. Yes, they're still making the older minis. However: there will never be another release for those armies, and GW has plenty of history of deciding things needing to be squatted because they're not selling after pulling support for them.

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Hoping it means things like Contemptors & Spartans will make their way into the loyalist & traitor SM books at some point.

As a (former) 30k player, very interested how far this is going to go. Either way, having a proper beakie kit is fantastic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 03:28:57


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And having the Legions use older technology while loyalist march into the bright new future of Cawl tech is a way to differentiate the two from each other. Primaris are the New Breed, with new weapons and technology, the Legions are the old veterans with ancient technology. That's a difference.


I think that'd be a great way to further separate the two factions with the CSM holding onto powerful weapons of legacy but only equippable by VotLW.

When it comes to maintenance we can stick with the 'time flows differently in the warp' or the Dark Mechanicus can make their own lower maintenance 'Neo-Volkite' weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 04:12:49


 
   
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I just want a plastic spartan, sicaran, & Proteus in plastic
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Dunno tbh, seen some peeps guess that they have been scaled to the newer CSM models but with no frame of reference who knows. My biggest gripe is seeing the plastic Spartan and knowing it's going to be all over the place in 40k now it's not a janky piece of resin kit. The more 30k era stuff GW ports into 40k to keep the 40k SM players happy, at least IMO, takes away unique aspects of 30k having relic and ancient tech.
I'm disappointed it got leaked though, assuming it would have been revealed pretty soon I'd prefer to have no knowledge of it and be surprised like with Maloghurst and Argel Tal.

Heresy era units make perfect sense for the Veterans of the Long War. They're Heresy era units themselves, after all. Loyalists should just stick with their floating metal boxes, though.


Not really. Very few of the remaining CSM are actually survivors of the Horus Heresy, even accounting for those who went into the warp and are emerging just now in the 41st millennium because of time gak.

The Imperium has been producing brand new replacement Space Marines over the last 10k year. If the CSM don't match them, from SM continuing to defect over time and production of their own space marines, they'd be outnumbered by around 10-1 by the authorized strength of oldmarines alone, though the Imperium exceeds the theoretical authorized strength somewhat on SM. Given the CSM are generally held to outnumber loyalist SM in the present of 40k before the introduction of primaris marines, there aren't really that many true veterans of the Horus Heresy relative to the total strength of the CSM legions.

Also, equipment degrades over time in general. There's no particular reason that CSM tanks would still be around and loyalist wouldn't be, in fact, it would be generally more likely that the Imperium would still have working old examples, because the Imperium have been keeping theirs in mothballs and are generally in control of industry and logistics depots that can service them. The CSM forces on the other hand are using theirs, exposing them not only to attrition from enemy action, but also to wear and tear on components from operation, while also lacking the galactic scale logistics network to keep them in good condition. They're more likely to be on the battlefield, since their actually deploying them while the Imperium is keeping theirs in mothballs, but there's no particular reason for the number of remaining hulls to be appreciably greater.

As a side note, IIRC all the tanks that can be bought normally for CSM [not FW] are post heresy production marks, particularly Lascannon predators, which are a M36 introduction, which is pretty strongly indicative that most of the CSM force is newer than the Horus Heresy.


Note that this doesn't mean that CSM aren't veterans of a very long war, just that most have joined over the past 10k years. Whether that's in M32 or M40 doesn't really make a difference, its still a long time to fight for and gain experience over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 05:33:37


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I'm excited, I need more
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And having the Legions use older technology while loyalist march into the bright new future of Cawl tech is a way to differentiate the two from each other. Primaris are the New Breed, with new weapons and technology, the Legions are the old veterans with ancient technology. That's a difference.


I think that'd be a great way to further separate the two factions with the CSM holding onto powerful weapons of legacy but only equippable by VotLW.

When it comes to maintenance we can stick with the 'time flows differently in the warp' or the Dark Mechanicus can make their own lower maintenance 'Neo-Volkite' weapons.


Or the "this STC was held by a Chaos Forge World and nobody else has it" excuse, which was good enough for a long, long time. Of course they'd also have to stop giving 30k units to loyalists and not to Chaos (*cough*relicTerminators*coughcough*).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 05:54:42


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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Dunno tbh, seen some peeps guess that they have been scaled to the newer CSM models but with no frame of reference who knows. My biggest gripe is seeing the plastic Spartan and knowing it's going to be all over the place in 40k now it's not a janky piece of resin kit. The more 30k era stuff GW ports into 40k to keep the 40k SM players happy, at least IMO, takes away unique aspects of 30k having relic and ancient tech.
I'm disappointed it got leaked though, assuming it would have been revealed pretty soon I'd prefer to have no knowledge of it and be surprised like with Maloghurst and Argel Tal.

Heresy era units make perfect sense for the Veterans of the Long War. They're Heresy era units themselves, after all. Loyalists should just stick with their floating metal boxes, though.


Not really. Very few of the remaining CSM are actually survivors of the Horus Heresy, even accounting for those who went into the warp and are emerging just now in the 41st millennium because of time gak.

The Imperium has been producing brand new replacement Space Marines over the last 10k year. If the CSM don't match them, from SM continuing to defect over time and production of their own space marines, they'd be outnumbered by around 10-1 by the authorized strength of oldmarines alone, though the Imperium exceeds the theoretical authorized strength somewhat on SM. Given the CSM are generally held to outnumber loyalist SM in the present of 40k before the introduction of primaris marines, there aren't really that many true veterans of the Horus Heresy relative to the total strength of the CSM legions.

Also, equipment degrades over time in general. There's no particular reason that CSM tanks would still be around and loyalist wouldn't be, in fact, it would be generally more likely that the Imperium would still have working old examples, because the Imperium have been keeping theirs in mothballs and are generally in control of industry and logistics depots that can service them. The CSM forces on the other hand are using theirs, exposing them not only to attrition from enemy action, but also to wear and tear on components from operation, while also lacking the galactic scale logistics network to keep them in good condition. They're more likely to be on the battlefield, since their actually deploying them while the Imperium is keeping theirs in mothballs, but there's no particular reason for the number of remaining hulls to be appreciably greater.

As a side note, IIRC all the tanks that can be bought normally for CSM [not FW] are post heresy production marks, particularly Lascannon predators, which are a M36 introduction, which is pretty strongly indicative that most of the CSM force is newer than the Horus Heresy.


Note that this doesn't mean that CSM aren't veterans of a very long war, just that most have joined over the past 10k years. Whether that's in M32 or M40 doesn't really make a difference, its still a long time to fight for and gain experience over.

I agree that the majority of CSM probably aren't actual veterans of the Heresy, but many are. Their numbers in any given warband compared to newer CSM would vary. But they're there.

As to Heresy era units, as I've pointed out the Dark Mechanicus can still both produce and maintain many of them, as they have the STCs that the Imperium lacks, and they have no problem reverse engineering things, while the Admech does because of their silly superstitions. And as you say, CSM actually use theirs. While loyalists leave theirs stuck in vaults in their fortress monasteries. And that means they would be far more prevalent in CSM forces than in those of loyalists. And they certainly wouldn't require "requisition orders", as the Legions have to use what they have.

As to your side note: That's because gw can just slap a sprue of spikes and chains in the box, add "Chaos" to the name, and be done. Nothing more.
   
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All I want is Mk2 plastic vs Mk6 plastic in the box...
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Black Knight wrote:
...Don't know why people thought that just because Primaris Marines came out...


Because of how much of WHFB went away to make way for the Sigmarines, maybe?

You mean none?

Stormcast didn't replace Wood Elves. They didn't replace High Elves. They didn't replace Bretonnians. They didn't replace Tomb Kings.

I get that it's in fashion to spew garbage, meme-ridden arguments like "They deleted WHFB for Sigmarines!"...but they aren't true.

Also saying "Sigmarines" makes you automatically not worth discussing things with.


I can say "Stormcast Eternals" if using a nickname rather than the copyrighted name on the front of the army book offends you. I can even say "Aelves" if you want.

No, there isn't a 1-1 replacement algorithm where each army got explicitly dropped and turned into something different. Yes, they're still making the older minis. However: there will never be another release for those armies, and GW has plenty of history of deciding things needing to be squatted because they're not selling after pulling support for them.


Yes, no classic fantasy armies will ever again get model releases! Woe, woe betide to them! Lost to the sands of time, are these classic factions such as Vampire Counts, Chaos Warriors, and High Elves! Nary a trace nor a hint that the Dark Elves may ever return as they once were!

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Atlanta, GA

The_Real_Chris wrote:
All I want is Mk2 plastic vs Mk6 plastic in the box...


Well it doesn't look like you're getting that in this box, but a lot of rumors are saying that there are more kits coming. I wouldn't discount Mk2 as never happening just yet.
   
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I'm excited about the new 30k box myself, but I'm also a 30k player.

It just means more Marines and more Marine equipment for me to kill with my humble mortals, Lovecraftian daemons, or archaeotech marvels.
   
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Spoiler:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

Because of how much of WHFB went away to make way for the Sigmarines, maybe?

You mean the two non-copyrightable armies with loads of really old models that had comparable, if not straight up copies, in other armies? But of course you use "Sigmarines" so I'm pretty sure you just hate AoS because it isn't WHFB.

Spoiler:


I can say "Stormcast Eternals" if using a nickname rather than the copyrighted name on the front of the army book offends you. I can even say "Aelves" if you want.

No, there isn't a 1-1 replacement algorithm where each army got explicitly dropped and turned into something different. Yes, they're still making the older minis. However: there will never be another release for those armies, and GW has plenty of history of deciding things needing to be squatted because they're not selling after pulling support for them.

Why not just say "Stormcast" though? "Sigmarines" isn't their nickname it was a dumb joke because people were mad that the Old World got nuked.
I think you're living in denial that AoS has kept the legacy factions alive and updated with rules and models. Soulblight, Cities of Sigmar, Daughters of Khaine, Rotbringers, Hedonites, Blades of Khorne, Arcanites, Slaves to Darkness, Seraphon, Ogor Tribes, Warclanz, and Sylvaneth say hello.
   
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I'm not a marine player, but I'd be tempted to buy the box if it does contain upscaled oldmarines, cataphractii, and a plastic spartan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 12:32:21


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If these *are* upscaled, plastic Mk VI Marines, and with the announcement of the new Boyz kit, GW are really missing a trick if they don't have a 35th anniversary Battle at the Farm box set – complete with new non-Primaris Kantor, Thrugg and Hruk – ready to go for next year.
   
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
All I want is Mk2 plastic vs Mk6 plastic in the box...


I am working on an MK2 army right now, there are files out there to print your own. I have i think every other armor generation and would buy a FW MK2 box or 2 for a couple of squads from that generation in the army but alas they don't make em so i gotta 3d print em

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Plastic MKVI armour is just begging to be made into a Raven Guard army, this is really exciting.

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 Mr. Grey wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Like we need more marine stuff.


There's a big difference between putting out another 2-3 Primaris marine units every few months vs. plastic Mk6 for a different game system altogether. Guarantee that nobody who plays 30K is currently going "UGH, more space marines!".


But... But... But... They're eating up time & resources that could be better spent on (fill in your favorite xeno faction)! And being for another system won't stop the SM players from using them anyways!
   
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ccs wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Like we need more marine stuff.


There's a big difference between putting out another 2-3 Primaris marine units every few months vs. plastic Mk6 for a different game system altogether. Guarantee that nobody who plays 30K is currently going "UGH, more space marines!".


But... But... But... They're eating up time & resources that could be better spent on (fill in your favorite xeno faction)! And being for another system won't stop the SM players from using them anyways!


honestly i would love to see xenos rules in 30k just because i like the ruleset but prefer playing my orks, until/if ever that happens its alpha legion for me.

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The thing is the whole point of Age of Darkness is the Horus Heresy, where there weren't any Xenos.
I get people wanting to play the Great Crusade and stuff but the whole point of the GC was Xenos getting blitzed left, right and centre by the vast armies of humanity. Kinda takes the fun out of it IMO if the Orks and Aeldari are destined to lose like every single battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 13:15:58


 
   
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Atlanta, GA

 G00fySmiley wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Like we need more marine stuff.


There's a big difference between putting out another 2-3 Primaris marine units every few months vs. plastic Mk6 for a different game system altogether. Guarantee that nobody who plays 30K is currently going "UGH, more space marines!".


But... But... But... They're eating up time & resources that could be better spent on (fill in your favorite xeno faction)! And being for another system won't stop the SM players from using them anyways!


honestly i would love to see xenos rules in 30k just because i like the ruleset but prefer playing my orks, until/if ever that happens its alpha legion for me.


It's never going to happen because the entire focus of 30K is, well, that whole "Horus Heresy" thing. Nevermind that I don't think the 30k design team has the manpower to put out rules for all the various xenos factions.

That said, aus30k from what I remember has 30K rules available for both Eldar and Orks, so that might be worth a look.
   
 
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