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Made in gb
Executing Exarch






My thoughts:

The emperor gets bored and genuinley reaches out across time and space and thinks : "This will blow everyone's minds! lolz!" and then throws up a shield around a tank and dissapears or something

On a more serious note I really like the parallel reality theory.

Not sure if I'm making this up but I got the impression the enslavers are other such being who strictly speaking don't operated within "typical warp"

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Does anyone know if 40k has ever clearly stated what the bar is for "god" status?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Aash wrote:
Are there any stories about Acts of faith working in the presence or Sisters of Silence, or other nulls?
One of the basic wargear items for the canoness in-game is a null rod which turns her into a form of psychic null.
The sisters and ordo hereticus are also known to use a variety of anti-psyker and psyker detection gear without ill effect.

Offhand the only direct confrontation in lore that springs to mind was Ephrael fighting a Culexus which is a bit of an odd case - Ephrael isn't a psyker as such but carries the faith/souls/energies of seven hundred sisters which is apparently enough to perform a variety of miraculous acts including raising Ephrael herself from the dead and overloading the Culexus' ability to absorb soul energy.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




A.T. wrote:
Aash wrote:
Are there any stories about Acts of faith working in the presence or Sisters of Silence, or other nulls?
One of the basic wargear items for the canoness in-game is a null rod which turns her into a form of psychic null.
The sisters and ordo hereticus are also known to use a variety of anti-psyker and psyker detection gear without ill effect.

Offhand the only direct confrontation in lore that springs to mind was Ephrael fighting a Culexus which is a bit of an odd case - Ephrael isn't a psyker as such but carries the faith/souls/energies of seven hundred sisters which is apparently enough to perform a variety of miraculous acts including raising Ephrael herself from the dead and overloading the Culexus' ability to absorb soul energy.


Once again I would like to offer my headcanon as to how to resolve this "Is it or is it not a psychic effect?"


"Primal energy is the most fundamental energy in the universe and the most powerful, the most "raw." It can bypass all "normal" magical, physical, and mental defenses as if they weren't even there, and none of these forces can bypass a primal shield. This is not to say that primal energy is completely unstoppable—primal defenses can be worn down—but there is no normal defense against primal, and no normal attack can completely bypass a primal defense. Primal energy cannot be negated, bypassed, cancelled, dispelled, or
absorbed; the only way to stop primal is with primal" -Primal Order


That was from the 1992 supplement general RPG supplement about gods, Primal Order. Basically its paradigm is that primal energy bypasses lesser forms of wards and defenses, and primal energy is something wielded only really by gods or their divine minions.

In 40K, my headcanon is that sufficient faith can generate these kinds of effects and gods, such as Chaos gods, can also wield this. These faith based effects seemingly bypass or ignore normal psyker wards, and cannot be dispelled. That is why for example Plague Marines, beings that should really be dead, don't fall dead the moment they walk into the Necrons' null zones. Their life is already partly supernatural, but it is a supernatural effect granted by a deity, so is not dispelled by the normal anti-psychic effects of the Necrons. It explains why the supernatural effects of prayers to the Chaos gods are also not dispelled.

In this paradigm, faith remains mysterious because it is hard to access or study directly, and cannot reliably be reproduced by humans, unlike psychic powers. Strictly speaking, it is still warp based, hence why Celestine also dimmed when the Cadian pylons activated, and why Sisters of Battle while not succumbing to the listlessness of normal humans in the Necron Pariah Nexus, still feel some effect in the fiction, even if not in the rules. Perhaps faith still allows them to maintain some minimal connection to the warp, one that is beyond the understanding and detection of the Necrons.

It also keeps therefore the Emperor's status nebulous. Maybe some of the Acts of Faith were by the Emperor, while others were self-generated by the person of intense faith. Arguably the same could be said for Chaos prayers. Did the Chaos god really hear the prayer and grant it or was the person's faith in their Chaos god strong enough to generate it themselves?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/06 00:53:25


 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, whatever empowers the Sisters? We can categorically say it’s not Warpcraft, thanks to Paycheck Awakening: Pariah.

For those who haven’t read it (it’s actually quite enjoyable), the Pariah Nexus is the location, and it’s where the Necrons have established enough Blackstone Pylons to shut down The Warp. And it’s expressly noted by Szeras (the main architect of the Nexus) that it has no effect upon Sisters of Battle.

So what is it really? Buggered if I know, but it’s not psychic.


Pariah Nexus is really an aberration on that front. It *should* be psychic, the SoB should have been *more* vulnerable to the Pariah Nexus than the average human, not less.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

Very interesting topic and some very interesting facts from books I didn't read.

Something I want to add is that at no point in time were you able to prevent miracles / Acts of Faith from happening on the tabletop with any of your own Psykers, abilities or Stratagems.

From official material we know that Living Saints are affected by warp inhibitors, while Acts of Faith aren't.

My headcanon explanation for this is that Sisters use the Warp or something similar to it, but instead of tapping into a different dimension and bringing stuff from there to us, they tap into themselves and use "the Warp-like energy of the material world".

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
Very interesting topic and some very interesting facts from books I didn't read.

Something I want to add is that at no point in time were you able to prevent miracles / Acts of Faith from happening on the tabletop with any of your own Psykers, abilities or Stratagems.


Thousand Sons Cabalistic Rituals now prevent the psychic powers being denied, so it's an indirect prevention of an Act of Faith...though I guess even then that could be argued to be an artifact of rules rather than background. Perhaps it is indeed too powerful to be stopped even with faith if the faith is self-generated power, or perhaps the Emperor does not see fit to intervene with a greater miracle and opts to let the power through.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Hecaton wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, whatever empowers the Sisters? We can categorically say it’s not Warpcraft, thanks to Paycheck Awakening: Pariah.

For those who haven’t read it (it’s actually quite enjoyable), the Pariah Nexus is the location, and it’s where the Necrons have established enough Blackstone Pylons to shut down The Warp. And it’s expressly noted by Szeras (the main architect of the Nexus) that it has no effect upon Sisters of Battle.

So what is it really? Buggered if I know, but it’s not psychic.


Pariah Nexus is really an aberration on that front. It *should* be psychic, the SoB should have been *more* vulnerable to the Pariah Nexus than the average human, not less.


how is it an abberation? we have no IDEA how acts of faith work. we are told, repeatedly, that strong faith seems to be the "cure" for the pariah nexus, we're not told WHY, but it is.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Confessor Of Sins




Catulle wrote:
It's entirely possible that the saints are effectively imperial daemon princes (or analogues)


Celestine's whole deal is actually really, really odd. It's clear she's warp empowered both through fall of Cadia and her own book, but the who, why, and how are still pretty much a mystery.

SHE seems to think it's from the Emperor but she straight up says she'll merc his a** if he lets anything happen to the girl on the beach so she's apparently not particularly worried about him rescinding his alleged gifts.

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Fresh-Faced New User




I am not completely up to speed on the newer lore. But how my impression of it from the older lore is:

Yes it do in a way stem from the warp but it is not a psychic ability. It is the same way as Orks are. Orks belive an engine/gun/Vehicle will work (that's why red paint goes faster than other colours right?) so their belief is using warp emotions to make impossible things work. When an mechanics guy inspects it ti will not work for him because h knows it will not work.
While Sisters are not inherently psychic like the orks, this was at least how I always thought about it. It is their belief that "taps" into the warp and protects them.
But same way an ork flyer is not psychic and therefore will work in the nexus (though might fall to pieces if no orks is around to belive it works) I think sisters belief will also work in the nexus somehow.
At least that how I always thought of it
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Don't go picking on the ladies of the Commissariat and Tempestus Scions. They are faithful daughters of the emperor and skilled warriors as well. They just don't have the certain something that makes a life of religious service their best fit for their abilities.

As for psychers, the Schola Programa is very good at finding nascent psychers and putting them to the best use. Could be in the inquisition, ranks of the sanctioned psychers, or joining with the Emperor at the Golden Throne.
   
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So SoS go through the Schola, or do they get trained in house by the Sisters of Silence chapels?
   
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Sisters of Silence are entirely separate in their recruiting. They use the Black Ships as a source for finding new Blanks.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The Emperor doesn't protect anyone. He's a vegetable on a slowly failing life support system.

Belief in the Emperor allows for certain things not explainable through conventional material-based science, just like belief in other warp entities does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 19:43:06


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Does the Emperor REALLY protect the Sisters of Battle? Well, judging from what a squad of chaincannon Havocs does to them....if he does, he's very bad at it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The Emperor doesn't protect anyone. He's a vegetable on a slowly failing life support system.

Now, now, be fair. Vegetables only require sunlight, water, and some dirt, not the sacrifice of literally thousands of lives to keep alive. Silly Corpse Worshipers.....
   
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In the Dawn of Fire series, Gman flat out confirms E is not a god, however, he manifests his will in ways not-unlike a god, such as Ragdolling Mortarian, or protecting the Militant Apostolic from harm while he is standing in a room with Custodes, Primaris, SoS, and SoB fighting an all out battle against two Greater Unclean ones, and a Greater named Daemon of Nurgle, who's very presence outright kills several others.

The Emperor is not a god, but his thoughts can manifest as minor or major miracles that change the course of history. Saint Sabat is proof of that.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Guilliman is not infallible and indeed one of the themes of for example the Dark Imperium series is that Guilliman starts to have growing doubts about his earlier position, especially after witnessing and experiencing several inexplicable things attributed to the Emperor. Guilliman might be starting to believe or at least entertain the idea that the 40K era Emperor might well have become a god, after thousands of years of worship from the Imperium.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Again it's the whole issue of perspective. Guilliman lived in an age of atheism so to him the Emperor can't be a God. At the same time Guilliman also can't deny the Chaos Gods or beings like the C'tan who by all metrics are God-like beings.
If the power of the Emperor is anathema to the Chaos Gods and indeed it seems to the effects of devices like the Pariah Nexus, then perhaps the Emperor is a God after all.
   
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Ok, if we use Gman's style of argument.

Theoretical: The Emperor has BECOME a god.
Practical: The Emperor is a god.

Theoretical: The Emperor is not a god, but can manifest god-like powers that defy understanding and classification.
Practical: The Emperor is for all intents and purposes, a god.

Theoretical: Faith works in 40k like a weird version of magic. Both for humans, and Orks. It's essentially a Mcguffin, for lazy writing.

Practical: The Emperor is not a god, but Faith and Ork magik manifests strange powers in weird ways.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does anyone know if 40k has ever clearly stated what the bar is for "god" status?

"If someone asks you if you're a god, Fezzik, you say yes..."

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Does anyone know if 40k has ever clearly stated what the bar is for "god" status?

"If someone asks you if you're a god, Fezzik, you say yes..."


"I am the keymaster!"
   
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Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

While there is no definition, there are statements of what individuals are gods.

Gork & Mork, the four chaos dudes, the surviving Eldar pantheon and full C'tans. Though the latter are gods of the material realm, rather than the warp.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





a_typical_hero wrote:
While there is no definition, there are statements of what individuals are gods.

Gork & Mork, the four chaos dudes, the surviving Eldar pantheon and full C'tans. Though the latter are gods of the material realm, rather than the warp.

The eldar gods raise some questions. Is Khaine still a god despite being "shattered"? Ynnead is said to be a "nascent" god, but what does that mean exactly? They certainly seem to have enough power to do some god-like stuff. If that's enough to be a god, then the Emperor probably qualifies.
   
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Without a clear definition of a "god" what we have to fall back on is a definition of a daemon or warp creature. I would say most of the imperial saints are basically that. Lawful Good Daemons.
   
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Nottingham, England

The Emperor isn’t sustained by the sacrifice of psykers , it’s the Astronomicon that needs it. The physical state of the Emperor is pretty meaningless given he’s the most powerful psyker in existence - though unable since the Heresy to stop doing two tasks. Mai raining the Astronomicon and ensuring the webway breach remains sealed.

Based on what is in the Heresy and Siege titles, the Sister’s faith in the Emperor generates psychic based phenomena that doesn’t originate from the warp. For want of a better word it’s anti-chaos rather than doing what the Grey Knights do which is using psychic powers from the warp to attack chaos.

During the webway war ghostly marines manifest from no known source.

Similar is seen in the siege series where shrines and altars to the emperor repel a nurgle plague. Malcador acknowledges what seems to be happening and the current plot line in Siege seems to be leading toward a loyalist plot to create a surge in faith in the Emperor.

The astartes dont manifest miracles or suchlike because they don’t accept the Emperor as being a godlike being that can aid them or save them. They believe in his rule , his power and his Imperium but that’s it. Inquisition similar , they don’t believe truly in Him but rather themselves , they were never created by Him and were nit originally conceived to exist in a universe without Him being an active ruler.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 TwilightSparkles wrote:
The Emperor isn’t sustained by the sacrifice of psykers , it’s the Astronomicon that needs it. The physical state of the Emperor is pretty meaningless given he’s the most powerful psyker in existence - though unable since the Heresy to stop doing two tasks. Mai raining the Astronomicon and ensuring the webway breach remains sealed.


There’s actually two sets of psyker sacrifices:

There’s the Astronomican psykers that are fairly competent and highly trained to do their job but are killed by the effort of it. They live in the Chamber of the Astronomican in the Forbidden Fortress

Then there’s the psykers who aren’t competent enough for the Imperium to use for anything that are plugged directly into the Golden Throne who have their life slowly leeched out of them and fed to the Emperor to sustain Him directly.

What precisely about the Emperor they sustain hasn’t been made entirely clear afaik, probably some combination of keeping His body intact as an anchor and powering the Golden Throne to keep the webway gate shut. Given the latter was sorely taxing Him when He was at full power during the Heresy and the effort of it killed Malcador when he was attached to it for a few hours, I can well believe most of the soul power having to go to that.
   
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Catulle wrote:
 Gert wrote:
That would be Euphrati Keeler, the first Saint of the Imperium.
It is very much the Emperor's fault that people started worshiping Him as a god. Giant golden figure surrounded by a halo of light, wielding a flaming sword and intense power all while His symbols repel Warpspawn. Hell, I'm not religious but if I saw that you best believe I'd start going to church.


Exhibit (let n=x+1) in the case of "this Emperor chap really didn't think this all through, did he?"


Or lt was part of his plan. Seeing guy engineered horus heresy up his motives are hardly obvious.

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At least he does for my Bloody Rose.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without a clear definition of a "god" what we have to fall back on is a definition of a daemon or warp creature. I would say most of the imperial saints are basically that. Lawful Good Daemons.


I'd lean towards Lawful Neutral, really, rather than Lawful Good. They do represent the Imperium, after all.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Spoiler:
So in the latest books, it is HEAVILY implied by both events in the book, and the Eldar Farseer, that while not originally a god, The Emperor has "become" a god through the Imperial Cult started by Lorgar. Simply through Faith. Seeing as how the Sisters literally worship as a god, they can make his will manifest on demand. The book also states that the Human language is exceptionally crude and unspecific, and while the Eldar do not see him as a god in their terms, for all intents and purposes, to humanity, the Emperor is now a literal god. As canon in Godblight.
   
 
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