Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yeah compared to legion, in which they are relatively cheap. a decent 800pt list could cost you 200$.
HQ are like 12-17$ and troops ragnes from 25-30
Granted they are going a bit up being hard plastic, but to me that is worth it

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The price point is a bugbear of mine.

The bigger ships from what I’ve seen are really nice, and a decent size. I’d happily get some for display, but man…..the price,

I remember seeing the new ships at the game store for the first time and thinking they were pretty cool. And then I flipped the box over to see the price tag and put the box back. The funny thing is, I think Armada would have died on the shelves back in 2015 if it had to survive under the same conditions as the new Prequel sets. The new starters are the same price as the old starter, yes, except not really because the old starter was available at 50% off on Amazon every day of the week. And the other ships in Waves 1 and 2 were also frequently or constantly available at steep discounts.

I know when we talk price, fans always say, "Hey I think at that price it's an amazing value!" And I agree with them. I think just one plastic Armada ship is worth all the gold, silver, and precious jewels in the world, and if Asmodee asks that as the price you should totally pay it and be happy with your purchase. Really they should be charging what it would actually cost to build a 1000 meter long space ship in real life for each and every single one of these plastic ships, absolutely, I 110% agree with that. However, it was my experience in the game store that day, that even though I had enough fun money in my wallet to walk out of there with a fleet for each of the two new factions under my arms, I nonetheless did not really want to spend my money that way. And although I usually assume my experience is completely ungeneralizable to the wider public, in this case I think maybe it's the opposite, I think a lot of previous Armada players looked at those prices and thought, "Nah, I'm cool." Because it was priced to sell in a market that doesn't exist anymore.

Aye, the sticker shock for the original start stopped me even considering picking up Armada - though I might've considered some of the fighter packs as painting projects.

Same is true of Marvel Crisis Protocol, though.

I had the same sticker shock when the game premiered but didn't stick around to see if it was available cheaper. The mechanics didn't catch me immediately from the gameplay videos (unlike with X-wing). I do regret it a little bit in not picking up a bunch of the ships at that 50% off though just for generic future spacebattles but I didn't know about it.

I will say that I should've gotten a demo of Armada at some point, but the stars never really aligned for that.

Wonder if we might see BFG return.

Of late, GW have had a pretty decent run of luck zigging when competitors have just zagged right off a cliff edge. So I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s shown off at the next Con thing.

I'm in a minority round my way, but Armada simply didn't feel like a Star Wars game, unlike X-Wing. And they burned through all the ships anyone had ever heard about in the first year of release, reduced to Star Destroyer repaints and trying to convince people that Rebel Transports are combat units rather than objective tokens.

It was ... OK, I suppose, but it shovelled on fiddly mechanics and components that didn't do it any favours.

So, to court criticism for writing it off?

If it is the first step to the system being dropped….what do people think it might do to the prices?

I really wouldn’t mind picking some Capital Ships up for display, so kinda hoping I might get some at sale prices.

Or, is it just possible that capital ship starship combat games just aren’t a license to print money after all? Armada is a game in a niche of a niche genre, saddled by a very expensive license as well. That said, any number of other starship combat games have crashed and burned the last decade, with and without licenses.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So, to court criticism for writing it off?

If it is the first step to the system being dropped….what do people think it might do to the prices?

I really wouldn’t mind picking some Capital Ships up for display, so kinda hoping I might get some at sale prices.

Honestly I'd just pick up some Bandai kits instead. You can get a star destroyer or an Executor pretty cheap when they're not part of a wargame.

My whole gut feeling around AMG right now is they're barely holding it together.

I assume Crisis Protocol is outselling X Wing and Armada combined, given its the new shiny and also arguably the more popular IP (at this moment.)

But even Crisis Protocol seems to be struggling with a slew of new releases but poor availability of older stuff meaning if you don't grab something there's a good chance you won't find it down the line.

Perhaps it's all related? It's all Disney after all, and perhaps the high frequency of MCP releases is all tied into getting the assets liquid before the licence go boom?

I'd say Asmodee/FFG's historically terrible stock management has just infected the new baby of the family is the most likely explanation, but the relentless waves of stuff have made it really hard to keep up with MCP to the point I've given up, and now I may never be able to revisit stuff I'd have ultimately bought. Or not for a long while at least.

MCP is facing the same problems every other company is.
Shipping is screwed up

Well, GW are in a better position because they’re less dependent on getting their stuff made in China.

Not an attack on China specifically, just that when you’ve outsourced your supply chain anywhere, you’re adding an extra vulnerability.

For GW, it’s (according to my local manager, so salt to taste) that whilst their second factory site is up and running, nothing could be run at capacity due to social distancing and disinfecting between shifts.

Now, assume this is the same issue in Chinese factories, then add needing to get it from there, to you or your preferred distribution hub, and it’s something GW don’t have to deal with in the same way (though is allegedly the issue behind Cursed City’s, well, Curse)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
MCP is facing the same problems every other company is.
Shipping is screwed up

Asmodee have never been good at distribution, even before shipping was an issue.

So would you say this is an... Atomic Mess?

Slightly less messy than their attempt at a product reveal show a few months back, where they couldn’t even get the ship centred on camera?

At least in the UK, Crisis Protocol stock hasn't been too bad. The first run usually sells out pretty quick but sourcing one isn't out of the question if you poke around a bit, with the odd exception like Venom. Punisher/Taskmaster was quite hard to find for a bit, but not impossible.

Legion was pretty dire for most of the FFG run, but after the ARC restocks it's not been too bad and restocks seem to land close enough that people aren't waiting months to get them again.

A Song of Ice and Fire on the other hand, some stuff like Rose Knights haven't seen a restock in over a year. Tully Cavaliers and Bolton Blackguards were the same until recently. I only mention it here because it's another Asmodee distributed game.

 Arbitrator wrote:
A Song of Ice and Fire on the other hand, some stuff like Rose Knights haven't seen a restock in over a year. Tully Cavaliers and Bolton Blackguards were the same until recently. I only mention it here because it's another Asmodee distributed game.

Rose Knight restock came in July.

If you need some then current cheapest seems to be - https://www.board-game.co.uk/product/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-expansion-rose-knights-expansion/

New releases have dried up for 2 months now though, I think we are either 5 or 6 units releases behind America.

My favourite with ASOIAF was waiting over a year for the Night's Watch starter to be released. I have found with the UK releases preorder and just wait for the release to avoid disappointment...my record wait thus far was about 14 months for the Targaryen Hrakkars.

I can offer some insight on the GW licensing aspect. There is/was (in the past) no clauses or stipulations disallowing design, production, and sale of competing miniature and war game products. there were clauses and stipulations which, if you squint, could be interpreted as meaning that under certain circumstances, particularly if you're a hard-ass lawyer with a chip on your shoulder and instructions to find a way to break a contractual agreement.

In FFG's case, there wasn't (to my knowledge) any sort of breach of contract type stuff involved. The contract came up for renewal, W was unhappy about FFG and directly competing with its other product lines, and made certain demands of FFG in order to negotiate the renewal. FFG declined those demands, and both companies parted ways as a result, more or less a mutual decision. In the case of certain other partnerships - see my comment about squinting and disgruntled lawyers.

 frankelee wrote:
People see amazingly complex narratives when looking at nothing at all. Armada doesn't sell very well. Its revenue when compared to the costs doesn't cover its manufacture, development, and share of overhead for the company at large. And so it goes bye bye.

This is not accurate. The fact that Armada is constantly sold out and being reprinted and restocked indicates quite the opposite about it, that the game actually sells very well and is more than profitable enough to cover its own costs. When a company like AMG/FFG/Admodee, or really any competent company in this industry, green lights production on a game like this they first analyze expected sales versus the costs to develop and produce the game, inclusive of all overhead and indirect costs. If those costs succeed the revenue generated by the expected sales, then the game doesn't get greenlit. If If the revenue generated only minorly exceeds the costs and it's clear that the ROI on the product line is not as high as what could be generated from investment on a different product, than the game doesn't get greenlit. when the expected sales exceed the costs, and the ROI is acceptable relative to other uses of the investment funds, then the game gets greenlit.

The fact that the game has something like 8 years and a dozen waves of product behind it, and tons and tons of sold out restocks behind it as well, would indicate that the game does sell very well and does cover all of the associated developmental, production, overhead, and indirect costs behind it. If it didn't, all of those expansions would not have been green lake. If it didn't all of those reprints would not have been greenlit. An expansion would not be authorized if the ROI on the expansion didn't meet performance standards. a reprint would not be authorized if the ROI on the reprint would not meet performance standards. We don't need to have hard data in front of us to know that the game sales performance is strong enough to have justified all of the support that it's received to date.

The fact that in this post AMG committed to continuing to reprint and restock existing products would corroborate this. If they were suffering losses on those existing products, they would not be continuing to reprint and restock them. this is just pure common sense.

FFG losing the license also occurred at the start of the Rountree era, and there was much speculation at the time that GW wanted to bring smaller games back in-house. They haven't really made much in the way that would be similar to what FFG would have made for them, but the certainly have entered the world of smaller games with enthusiasm.

As to Armada, I would say, jargon aside, that it quite clearly is not selling well, the prequel era ships were an attempt after a hiatus to jumpstart the product line again, and the revenue they generated was a disappointment that didn't justify the line's continuance.

Selling out is a completely unreliable metric, that doesn't tell us anything without other data points. Data points such as them cancelling the game because it doesn't sell well. Also, if anybody wants the new Armada ships, they're widely available online and at retail stores near you, at least in North America. Which doesn't make them feel very sold out anyway.

There's nothing particularly telling in their "reprint and restock" promise either, FFG has advanced on-going reprint orders with their Chinese factories for their products they haven't cancelled yet, the developmental costs are already paid for, it would actually be quite normal for a dead game that's not generating acceptable revenue to still get stocked for a year after they decide to pull the plug. They did with Runewars. Not to mention they may well have warehouses full of it that they want to get rid of, and the "reprint" is not going to mean what optimistic fans hope it means. The game is cancelled.

 frankelee wrote:


As to Armada, I would say, jargon aside, that it quite clearly is not selling well, the prequel era ships were an attempt after a hiatus to jumpstart the product line again, and the revenue they generated was a disappointment that didn't justify the line's continuance.

An AMG employee(well, technically contractor) in the Armada discord literally said that the game continues to sell really well and product continues to actively sell out well in advance of their projections. So, no - you're wrong.

Selling out is a completely unreliable metric, that doesn't tell us anything without other data points. Data points such as them cancelling the game because it doesn't sell well. Also, if anybody wants the new Armada ships, they're widely available online and at retail stores near you, at least in North America. Which doesn't make them feel very sold out anyway.

One of the two Clone Wars starter sets actually did briefly sell out in both the Asmodee and FFG online stores and in many distributors. It was said that they had an early second wave of product for the Clone Wars releases in anticipation of demand (i.e. a "pre-reprint") which is why it didn't completely disappear from shelves. The Venator is also sold out in many places (including Asmodees online store, Fantasy Flights online store was briefly sold out as well but recently restocked (likely a similar second wave/pre-reprint).As far as Asmodee and AMG are concerned, "selling out" means their own inventory is depleted. They don't particularly care if you can go to your local store and buy them, Asmodee was already paid for that product and they have already extracting whatever profit or revenue they can derive from it.

There's nothing particularly telling in their "reprint and restock" promise either, FFG has advanced on-going reprint orders with their Chinese factories for their products they haven't cancelled yet, the developmental costs are already paid for, it would actually be quite normal for a dead game that's not generating acceptable revenue to still get stocked for a year after they decide to pull the plug. They did with Runewars. Not to mention they may well have warehouses full of it that they want to get rid of, and the "reprint" is not going to mean what optimistic fans hope it means. The game is cancelled.

Have you ever done business in China before? An "advance on-going reprint order" can be pulled at any time essentially at no cost. #1 rule of dealing with a chinese factory is never pay up front or make a deposit, because the factory can and will walk away with your money and you have no recourse to see it or what you paid for again. Likewise, FFG has no real obligation to carry through on a reprint order that hasn't entered into production yet. If it did enter production, the more likely thing for them to do would be to cancel any further reprints, ship and release whatever was already completed, and then drop this announcement.

They also don't necessarily have "warehouses full of product" - the industry as a whole, and Asmodee in particular, operate very lean when it comes to how much inventory they retain in their warehouses. The majority of their product orders are delivered immediately to their distributors and retailers, they only keep a bare minimum of inventory for themselves to cover short-term restocks in between reprints, as well as allocating some product to their own direct online sales channel.

The comparison to Rune Wars is also poor. When Rune Wars was shitcanned they announced it via ending their Organized Play program. They actually never ran a reprint for any of the Rune Wars products. While FFG and AMG might have differences in communication, manufacturing, logistics, supply chain, production quantities, etc are all centralized under Asmodee corporate. There is a stark difference in how Asmodee is handling these two games which should be immediately obvious and has strong implications in terms of their relative strengths as revenue/profit generating product lines.

Runewars was a failure for a multitude of reasons, sculpts, no advertizing, poor rules, generic lore.

I'm rather surpised Armada has held on as long as it has. In my area, the FLGS stopped carrying it after their stock sat unsold for about a year (and organized play died about a month after initial release), and output for the game has seemed sluggish. As others have said, getting product has been annoyingly difficult, especially online.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Runewars was a failure for a multitude of reasons, sculpts, no advertizing, poor rules, generic lore.

which raises the question....... has FFG ever produced anything good that was ORIGINAL? seems like all their sucesses are stuff that rides on the coat tails of an eistablished IP but I could be missing something

Arkham Horror would come to my mind as original IP that works

BrianDavion wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Runewars was a failure for a multitude of reasons, sculpts, no advertizing, poor rules, generic lore.

which raises the question....... has FFG ever produced anything good that was ORIGINAL? seems like all their sucesses are stuff that rides on the coat tails of an eistablished IP but I could be missing something

Let's see... anything set on Terrinoth, the Android setting or the Midnight RPG, for example.

Or hell, Twilight Imperium.

fair eneugh, I'm sure there was some stuff, just didn't know any off the top of my head

 kodos wrote:
Arkham Horror would come to my mind as original IP that works

I’m not sure a game set in the Cthulhu Mythos is an original IP, and I think there was an old version before FFG took it over.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Arkham Horror would come to my mind as original IP that works

I’m not sure a game set in the Cthulhu Mythos is an original IP, and I think there was an old version before FFG took it over.

Indeed, the original was published by Chaosium.