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I agree with those that said that we will likely see a "split" Space Marines codex next edition: a codex for original "firstborn" marines, and a codex for Primaris units, as the current Space Marine codex simply has too many units, with some Stratagems and abilities only affecting Primaris or non-Primaris units. Later on, after most of GW's stock of original marine kits have been sold out, I would not be surprised if the original marine units are moved to "Legends" status, essentially ostracizing them from the game of 40k (or relegating them to 30k) and GW continuing to focus exclusively on Primaris units.

Then in 10+ years, GW can bring back "firstborn" marines "because the fans demanded it," but in Primaris scale as the "True Marines," in an attempt to sell Marine players the same army over again. Maybe even tie it into another Space Marine civil war, but this time between the Primaris and True Marines.

I would doubt Legends status for Firstborn in 10th. The non-Codex Astartes Chapters all make hefty use of non-Primaris unique units and having them sit there while the rest of the range was removed would be very strange.
A split Codex for each generation would also be more trouble than it's worth TBH. It's annoying to have 90 odd datasheets to look through but at the same time having to buy a Codex with 70% of the rules being the same just to use Firstborn or Primaris would be annoying and would also likely end up costing more than the current one.

God...so many beautiful kits from the golden age of GW's modular kit design, all interchangeable, all incredibly detailed, scrapped while multiple factions are still sitting in 3rd ed plastics.

Just incredible levels of moneygrubbing favoritism.

 Gert wrote:
I would doubt Legends status for Firstborn in 10th. The non-Codex Astartes Chapters all make hefty use of non-Primaris unique units and having them sit there while the rest of the range was removed would be very strange.
A split Codex for each generation would also be more trouble than it's worth TBH. It's annoying to have 90 odd datasheets to look through but at the same time having to buy a Codex with 70% of the rules being the same just to use Firstborn or Primaris would be annoying and would also likely end up costing more than the current one.

Well, it seems that they're moving to primarise the chapter specific stuff now. The BT release will show what this will look like. Granted, BT are easy, some chapters such as SW have a ton of chapter specific stuff.

we are more likely to see old marines up scaled to be similar to the new CSM and the DeathWatch models then we are to see 85% of the space marine range discontinued

I mean personally I don't see GW ever banning you from using minis they manufactured, which kind of means that if they ever have no rules for short marines, you can most likely just count them as Primaris. And, I don't see how that helps them, which makes me think we'll see the two sizes / statlines continue a while longer.

While it's not likely to happen in the immediate future, that we could reasonably ask this question at all - are armies you've paid hundreds if not thousands for in the past going to eventually be rendered obsolete for official events - is not a good sign.

Is there another miniatures game where this could conceivably even happen, where specific miniatures and units can be 'retired' to Legends? I certainly haven't played them all, but I can't think of one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eventually yes. But this isn't something that can happen overnight. It's a majorly long-term project that would take several Codices of parallel running before the First Borns are shuffled off to Legends. I wouldn't even put it in the next Codex, but the one after that, couched in terms of "As there are now well over 100 separate Data Sheets for Space Marines, we felt that this was too overwhelming towards new players, especially with Warhammer 40,000's flagship faction! As such we have made the difficult decision to... etc. etc. etc.".

BrianDavion wrote:
ok, you're going to get some people rushing in here to tell you "YERS THE END TIMES ARE NIEGH" but they're leaping to conclusions.

And, apparently, you're going to get some people rushing in here to poison the well.

BrianDavion wrote:
... the oldest SM units in the range are the vehicles, and those are shared by sisters of battle, grey knights, and chaos space marines, so far GW has shown no inclination to get rid of those models (the sisters of battle rhino is just the old rhino hull with an upgrade sprue) so I don't think "first born marines" are going anywhere anytime soon.

I don't think that matters. Consider that the Rhino kit is faction-agnostic. You need a completely separate frame to make it into a Marine vehicle. Ditto for Chaos, and again for Sisters.

Hey, now. The difference for CSM is -two- sprues (the one you linked, with the CSM specific weapon options and the replacement gunner body) and the chaos spikes sprue.

Now, because I know all sorts of Chaos players who just leave the idiot gunner off the model (because it's simpler to paint, or whatever), don't put all (or even much) of the spiky bits on, and I'm pretty sure at least one of my rhinos was built from an Imperial Rhino box instead of a CSM rhino box...

I'd be willing to go so far as to say that the one to two sprue difference between SM and CSM is why you won't ever see a Primaris Rhino: "Thank goodness I didn't put that silly gunner on the tank, so I can switch it between regular and primaris" = No new sales from established players.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
While it's not likely to happen in the immediate future, that we could reasonably ask this question at all - are armies you've paid hundreds if not thousands for in the past going to eventually be rendered obsolete for official events - is not a good sign.

Is there another miniatures game where this could conceivably even happen, where specific miniatures and units can be 'retired' to Legends? I certainly haven't played them all, but I can't think of one.

I can't think of any mini games that really would be analgous to 40k here though.


I think we're more likely to see the lines kept but a few options quietly retired as GW says "just use this primaris mini for both firstborn and primaris options" tech marines are a big possiability.

Baaicly GW trying to finally phase out finecast.

Honestly, I fully expect GW to release a separate First-born and Primaris codex at some point. The amount of datasheet bloat in the current marine codex is crazy.

Then sometime after that, could be years, we'll start seeing a quelling of First-born models. Their remaining characters will either be killed off and become Primaris.

Jarms48 wrote:
Honestly, I fully expect GW to release a separate First-born and Primaris codex at some point. The amount of datasheet bloat in the current marine codex is crazy.

Then sometime after that, could be years, we'll start seeing a quelling of First-born models. Their remaining characters will either be killed off and become Primaris.

CHARACTERS have already been removed from the codex. and moved to supplements..

which is an intreasting thought. what if marines are "finished" and starting ion 10th we're going to see the focus being adding new units to the SUPPLEMENTS?

I think phasing out Firstborn was DEFINITELY the plan about 5 or 6 years ago, but they received such a huge backlash from the death of Fantasy and the introduction of Primaris that they re-evaluated their stance.

I feel like Firstborn is now the realm of Chaos and Horus Heresy. I don't think they'll be adding more Firstborn to 40K for the Imperium.

I think it's inevitable that they will be phased out, but that will be a long time coming.

Obviously, it's your money, time and hobby so do with it what you please.

I agree, Gathering Storm was definitely a 40k Endtimes.
It's pretty clear that they got cold feet at the last minute and pulled out with loose threads they don't know what to do with.

Ynnari are another huge example. Massive thing in 7th (lore wise and rules wise) then they immediately just kinda disappeared in 8th.

I was quite surprised when they codified Firstborn as an actual thing. I think the easiest path forwards for them would have just been to forget they're any different, just have Space Marines and give Intercessors the ability to take heavy and special weapons as a legends option.
Although they don't want easy, they want money, so that answers my own question.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, Gathering Storm was definitely a 40k Endtimes.
It's pretty clear that they got cold feet at the last minute and pulled out with loose threads they don't know what to do with.

The more people say it, the more I find myself agreeing with this line of thinking. I think Primaris Marines were just meant to be Marines, but in a post Gathering Storm world.

I think GW is greedier than that. Now that everyone has switched to Primaris, its only a matter of time until you need to rebuy your marines.. again

The backlash against Primaris has been so notable that GW probably decided to keep both lines viable in the end.

Makes you wonder about the model implications.

Gravis is a replacement for Terminator armour, as that might have been even scarcer post GS.

Is GW sitting on a new "super ancient (Primaris sized) Terminator" model which they can't release now because the time jump didn't happen?

It's pretty clear that all Firstborn sculpts have been upsized to Primaris anyway.

It started with Deathguard, continued with CSM, and has been really cemented with Crowe and the 30k models.

I think at some point GW will launch a new line of SM models. If they are SM 3.0, aka even tougher than gravis, then firstborn will be legended or phased out. It might be a firstborn revamp though.

But I'm 100% sure that GW will try to make SM players re-buy their collections once again. When primaris/gravis will be 10ish years old lots of SM players/collector will likely have only those and not a single firstborn or very few of the old units, so it's not really unreasonable to expect a new wave of firstborn at that point.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Makes you wonder about the model implications.

Gravis is a replacement for Terminator armour, as that might have been even scarcer post GS.

Is GW sitting on a new "super ancient (Primaris sized) Terminator" model which they can't release now because the time jump didn't happen?

nah,if GW is sitting on a primaris termy we'll see it eventually.

 Blackie wrote:
I think at some point GW will launch a new line of SM models. If they are SM 3.0, aka even tougher than gravis, then firstborn will be legended or phased out. It might be a firstborn revamp though.

But I'm 100% sure that GW will try to make SM players re-buy their collections once again. When primaris/gravis will be 10ish years old lots of SM players/collector will likely have only those and not a single firstborn or very few of the old units, so it's not really unreasonable to expect a new wave of firstborn at that point.

10 years is probably too short, but in principle I'd agree.

I feel Primaris were not made because "haha we need to destroy the old 40k and make a new game with square bases". I don't even think it was to make old Marine players buy a whole new army (although it was there to give compulsive collectors something more to collect).

I feel it was done to try and render obsolete - or at least disrupt - the huge ocean of old plastic sitting on secondary markets (be that Ebay, or your mate whose had a Marine army gathering dust in their attic since 2002.) I suspect this played a part in killing WHFB - because End Times was actually very successful at getting people *back* into Warhammer, at least in my corner of the world. But scarcely 20% of the armies we put together were bought direct. (In practice things would have been in train before this data reached GW if they even try to track stuff like that, but still.)

I think this is why GW are cagey with production runs. They don't want there to be effectively infinite copies of Indomitus or the 8th edition starter floating around, such that *anyone* who wants say 1000 points of Marines can head to Ebay and grab it for say £60 rather than the £200+ or whatever GW's RRP equivalent would be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, Gathering Storm was definitely a 40k Endtimes.
It's pretty clear that they got cold feet at the last minute and pulled out with loose threads they don't know what to do with.

The more people say it, the more I find myself agreeing with this line of thinking. I think Primaris Marines were just meant to be Marines, but in a post Gathering Storm world.

Whilst I really dislike some of GW's new fluff (like Guilliman returning,) I still have to say that I'd be really curious to now what the full plan was.

I hope they do phase out old marines. Already have in my marine army. All Primaris all the time. The old models are ugly has hell, I like the new fluff and the new models.

Andykp wrote:
I hope they do phase out old marines. Already have in my marine army. All Primaris all the time. The old models are ugly has hell, I like the new fluff and the new models.

I don't. you can run an all primaris army, an all firstborn army, or a mix, I like that that choice exists

Primaris are nowhere near as iconic as the venerable beakies. If firstborn ceased to exist, I'd stop collecting marines immediately.

There's a good chance of it happening in the long run, but it won't be anytime soon. At the end of the day GW will go where the money is, and with e.g. the big 30k plastic release somewhere on the horizon, I don't think we can say for sure.

Totally agree with the folks surmising that the plan may have changed since Primaris were designed/released.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
I think the big question is, what will GW do with this primaris black templars release.

if gw releases primaris black templars with the black templars squad configuration such that you can use an existing BT squad as primaris, I think that's a pretty clear sign theyre moving towards phasing out firstborn.

If they don't, I dunno. maybe that means they're sticking around?

Some of the rumours say there's a First Born Crusade squad coming alongside the Primaris one. I find that doubtful, but the source is meant to be very reliable.

The rumours say that firstborn crusaders will remain an option, not that they'll get new models - evidently all of the models in the upcoming BT release are Primaris. Two units, a bunch of characters, and some kind of upgrade sprue.

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I hope they do phase out old marines. Already have in my marine army. All Primaris all the time. The old models are ugly has hell, I like the new fluff and the new models.

I don't. you can run an all primaris army, an all firstborn army, or a mix, I like that that choice exists

Fair point.
I suppose saying I hoped they did was a bit strong. I am not bothered or inconvenienced at all by them still being around. As you say I can run my primaris chapter and it has no impact on anyone else’s army choices. I think I more meant to say that I’m glad they have done primaris and “expect” them to phase out old marines eventually. But I don’t “hope” they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
Primaris are nowhere near as iconic as the venerable beakies. If firstborn ceased to exist, I'd stop collecting marines immediately.

It’s very hard for anything new to be iconic.

 tauist wrote:
Primaris are nowhere near as iconic as the venerable beakies. If firstborn ceased to exist, I'd stop collecting marines immediately.

except it's funny you say the Beakies. because for MOST 40k fans when they think of a space Marine they think Mk VII armor, not MKVI, in fact I suspect few casual fans even know the Beakies where the original marines. give it 15 years and the MK X armor will have become the iconic "face" of space marines.

BrianDavion wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Primaris are nowhere near as iconic as the venerable beakies. If firstborn ceased to exist, I'd stop collecting marines immediately.

except it's funny you say the Beakies. because for MOST 40k fans when they think of a space Marine they think Mk VII armor, not MKVI, in fact I suspect few casual fans even know the Beakies where the original marines. give it 15 years and the MK X armor will have become the iconic "face" of space marines.

I suspect some of that depends on when you got into the game, being a truly aged gognard MkVI armour will always be classic marine and I think GW sort of know this as the new HH box has MkVI even though MkVII would fit the apparent late HH period

Well the Mk VI, MK VII and even MK X are all iconic in their own way... Just like the "Omega Astartes" MK XX suit will be iconic in the future.

We have reach a point in which SM armor suits are like K-PoP bands... All "unique" but also substantially the same.

 Crimson wrote:


Well, it seems that they're moving to primarise the chapter specific stuff now. The BT release will show what this will look like. Granted, BT are easy, some chapters such as SW have a ton of chapter specific stuff.

If BT can get primaris neophytes and initiates, then SW could very much get Primaris Grey Hunters. hey already were given SW specific Reavers. The supplement marine stuff at the start of 9th felt very rushed, and more in the, lets get it over with fast and give everyone access to the primaris stuff, then an actual update. Just like in 8th, the real update is probably going to be the second wave of marines stuff. That is assuming it won't get pushed in to 10th because of all the delays GW has.

Plus lore wise GW has an easy way to explain the removal of some stuff. No more thunder wolf stuff, because after what 1ksons did to Fenris most of them died, and the ones SW had died of old age and wounds.


In 3-4 editions there shouldn't be many people that remember how non primaris marines worked, and even fewer that would like to use them. If primaris had a option to put jet packs on blade guard or intercessors, and the HQ options were updated to have characters with packs or bikes, there really wouldn't be much marine stuff used, besides maybe the attack bike with MM. And that problem can be solved by simply making it legends, as there is its replacment already in the codex. the old one is just more point efficient.