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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
A handy little hint for people - in a thread which is essentially "hey these Nazi folk are bad" you can just say "Yeah they sure are" and be done with it.

10 years ago I'd've agreed with you, but the word 'Nazi' has been so overused to the point of meaninglessness, where anyone to the right of Chairman Mao is labelled a "nazi", shutting down all discussion.

Granted, that's not really a problem here (only in the weird imagination of some of our membership who see phantom "nazis" hiding under every stone and behind every tree), but more of a general observation.

You seem ignorant of how this started with a bunch of actual, literal admitted Nazis, and the sympathisers who made excuses or whatbaouted for them on this board. So your achingly clever "general obervations" do not apply here.

https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/

 Elemental wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
A handy little hint for people - in a thread which is essentially "hey these Nazi folk are bad" you can just say "Yeah they sure are" and be done with it.

10 years ago I'd've agreed with you, but the word 'Nazi' has been so overused to the point of meaninglessness, where anyone to the right of Chairman Mao is labelled a "nazi", shutting down all discussion.

Granted, that's not really a problem here (only in the weird imagination of some of our membership who see phantom "nazis" hiding under every stone and behind every tree), but more of a general observation.

You seem ignorant of how this started with a bunch of actual, literal admitted Nazis, and the sympathisers who made excuses or whatbaouted for them on this board. So your achingly clever "general obervations" do not apply here.

https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/

That's not how it started there's previous threads where the op's group has accused others on this board of being NAZIs, its just a recent conflagration. And your interpretation of the most recent thread is inaccurate. Asking for verification is not defending NAZIs, Lets craft a comprehensive anti hate dress code is not the same as defending NAZIs.

is this for real? if so I think it is OP who needs to be kicked for flagrant abuse and breaking of the rules, wrongly calling people nazis, a prescribed and illegal group in my country, is a hate crime under section 127 of the malicious communications act, I would like to know what the admins plan to do about these agitators please.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
A handy little hint for people - in a thread which is essentially "hey these Nazi folk are bad" you can just say "Yeah they sure are" and be done with it.

10 years ago I'd've agreed with you, but the word 'Nazi' has been so overused to the point of meaninglessness, where anyone to the right of Chairman Mao is labelled a "nazi", shutting down all discussion.

Granted, that's not really a problem here (only in the weird imagination of some of our membership who see phantom "nazis" hiding under every stone and behind every tree), but more of a general observation.

I mean sometimes it surely has a time and a place, such as for what to call the guy going to a Spanish tournament covered in fash gear.

I think the problem that exists online is that folk who are very much of the Nazi flavour try extremely hard to make everything they do seem like "trolling" or a joke or anything to allow their views to be normalised. It's written in to all of their ideals, it's how to get their voices heard. I'm sure you know as well as I do that there is the actual playbook* these dumb kids go by. And because of the "marketplace of ideas" bollocks that exists, people allow it to happen. They hide it all behind free speech and "polite discussion". That's why people in this thread are extremely staunch on the No Nazis. It isn't really a game. Dumb kids buy into it, thinking their edgy or christ knows. I'm sick of it because it's everywhere online and I think if you're "right minded" you miss a lot of it or you ignore it.

Put it like this, the people going about wearing a hammer and sickle or communist related material that you'd want banned as well, they tend to be wearing those things because of their socialist meanings, not the whole communist genocide related things. People wearing fascist gear, do they wear that because they want their trains to run on time? (A lie but it's the only thing I can think of). People do the whatabouttery thing but they aren't the same, it's a way to stifle discussion, a way to waste time and to muddy up the real issues.

Jerram wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Of course it will work. I do love the "you just want an echo chamber" argument when what's happening is basically "I don't want any of my views or statements challenged"
Basically, since dakka is apolitical, everyone should be able to say whatever they want, and no one should be able to disagree. Cause disagreement is the worst sin. If I were to say "we should skin all rich alive" it's apolitical, if you write "actually that's effd up" then it's dragging politics into it.
Wearing a funny swastika to a tournament is not political, saying "hey, maybe we shouldn't let people bring in hate symbols to tournaments" is political.

I explicitly want discussion, the opposite of don't challenge my statements. The OP explicitly wants certain views shut down, you know don't challenge my views. Can you be any more dishonest ?

So if I'm running a FLGS its not going to be the person saying "Black Templars are cool" whose causing a disturbance, its the person screaming that they must be fascist apologist that's the problem.

Seems to me like you identified the person "screaming" here as the "disturbance" that needs to be shut down? Literally called them the problem in this scenario.

Except of course we all know the chance of someone randomly picking on some 15yo with BT figures in an LGS to "scream" at them is infinitesimally small and the whole issue centers upon the fact that
a) someone came in with blatantly alt-right/hate group/fascist iconography on their clothes to an event
b) some people suggested that maybe this shouldn't be allowed because fascists and people associated with them have a history of being Not Good for communities, even if you ignore the whole 1930s-1940s period where the followers of the same ideology did some Rather Bad Stuff.
c) immediately the thread was derailed by people who did all manner of mental gymnastics to claim the Austrian Painter was not wearing fascist symbols and the name was no proof and even iof it was why shouldn't he be allowed unless he literally heils on the premises, followed by "well if we ban this who knows where it will end".
d) mods lock thread because people argue and report it, meaning status quo of schroedringers' fascist is upheld.

I can only assume that people in c) aren't actual fascist sympathizers and instead buy into the argument that if we ban people who outright argue for racial segregation, removal of democracy and physical violence towards minorities, then soon "they" will come to ban anyone who isn't following the current zeitgeist of tolerance and acceptance of others. Which is a bit silly, because as people noted, this is a wargaming forum, unless you go out of your way to harass people, no one is likely to bring up any of those topics in the first place.

We loop back to my argument that this centers on the fact that people who whatabout-ed the thread don't want to have their right to voice politically charged opinions pointed out or argued with in topics like "female space marines" or "black marines", whenever they crop up.

Fascism is a post marxist derivative that takes socialist theory and applies it to the nation (Niether left nor right, Zeev Sternhill), national socialism is takes socialist theory and applies it to the race (Neither left nor right, Zeev Sternhill), marxist socialism takes socialist theory and applies it to the class, (Das Kapital, Karl Marx) intersectionalism "Wokism" takes socialist theory and applies it to the identity/class/race (Critial race theory, key writings that formed the movement, Kimberle Crenshaw)

So no, we are being morally and ethically consistent when we say ban ALL forms of socialism not just the ones some here like and want to promote, we do not care about the excuses, the awful justifications or whatever, all of it is political, all of it is objectively evil and should not be on a forum about models, so to those of you that believe "the personal is political" fascist crap, just leave, none of us want you here, go back to Sigmarxism or 4Chan

Catulle wrote:
We've had a thread shut down

Catulle wrote:
We've had threads shut down

Catulle wrote:
We keep having threads shut down

Basically seems to boil down to OP not being able to totally punch a nazi on a wargaming forum and he’s big mad.

Whats one constructive, wargaming related reason that any of those threads shouldn’t have been closed? Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

Catulle wrote:
Copy sent to journalists.

I might put this at the end of all my posts. Flatout hilarious.

Tune in next week when someone claims the mods are the opposite of whatever political persuasion OP is crying about.

 nels1031 wrote:
Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

I think a lot of threads would benefit from complete exterminatus instead of just being locked. It would help drive home the point.

The mods dont want to ban problematic people who make horrible posts and supports facism, so they made the "No Politics" rule. A rule which only help those people because rather than getting banned from the website like they should, they can stay.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

I think a lot of threads would benefit from complete exterminatus instead of just being locked. It would help drive home the point.

There could even be a nice little flash animation for users to make them aware. Drop a literal nuke on those threads.

Would completely removing the thread about how the Spanish neo-Nazi was bad not just confirm that the mods are indeed crypto-fascist Nazi sympathisers..?

Jerram wrote:

That's not how it started there's previous threads where the op's group has accused others on this board of being NAZIs, its just a recent conflagration. And your interpretation of the most recent thread is inaccurate. Asking for verification is not defending NAZIs, Lets craft a comprehensive anti hate dress code is not the same as defending NAZIs.

Sure it is, because you're doing the familiar old song and dance of "those other people are just as bad" to try and play down that one side is actual Nazis. Demand high standards of proof for the side that you seem very keen to make excuses for--while, as your post history shows, jumping on the weirdest of conspiracy theories told about the other and swallowing them whole in one almighty gulp.

Again, standard operating procedure for fascist fanboys, all the way back to the 1920's. Play up the scaaary communists and the evil antifas. Deflect, deny, normalise, draw false equivalences. For someone who doesn't want to be called an apologist, you're making an almighty effort to fill in the bingo card.





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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

I think a lot of threads would benefit from complete exterminatus instead of just being locked. It would help drive home the point.

And it's a victory for the fascist fanboys, because now we're not allowed to talk about how neo-Nazis are bad. Just as they intend.

Exactly. 4chan is so bad because there are no mods and there is a "every view is allowed, even the bad ones" is allowed.
I saw one of my favorite fandoms get nearly destroyed from nazis.

 Formosa wrote:
Fascism is a post marxist derivative that takes socialist theory and applies it to the nation (Niether left nor right, Zeev Sternhill), national socialism is takes socialist theory and applies it to the race (Neither left nor right, Zeev Sternhill), marxist socialism takes socialist theory and applies it to the class, (Das Kapital, Karl Marx) intersectionalism "Wokism" takes socialist theory and applies it to the identity/class/race (Critial race theory, key writings that formed the movement, Kimberle Crenshaw)

So no, we are being morally and ethically consistent when we say ban ALL forms of socialism not just the ones some here like and want to promote, we do not care about the excuses, the awful justifications or whatever, all of it is political, all of it is objectively evil and should not be on a forum about models, so to those of you that believe "the personal is political" fascist crap, just leave, none of us want you here, go back to Sigmarxism or 4Chan

Deflect, deny, normalise, draw false equivalences. Same old script.

 Elemental wrote:

Jerram wrote:

That's not how it started there's previous threads where the op's group has accused others on this board of being NAZIs, its just a recent conflagration. And your interpretation of the most recent thread is inaccurate. Asking for verification is not defending NAZIs, Lets craft a comprehensive anti hate dress code is not the same as defending NAZIs.

Sure it is, because you're doing the familiar old song and dance of "those other people are just as bad" to try and play down that one side is actual Nazis. Demand high standards of proof for the side that you seem very keen to make excuses for--while, as your post history shows, jumping on the weirdest of conspiracy theories told about the other and swallowing them whole in one almighty gulp.

Again, standard operating procedure for fascist fanboys, all the way back to the 1920's. Play up the scaaary communists and the evil antifas. Deflect, deny, normalise, draw false equivalences. For someone who doesn't want to be called an apologist, you're making an almighty effort to fill in the bingo card.





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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

I think a lot of threads would benefit from complete exterminatus instead of just being locked. It would help drive home the point.

And it's a victory for the fascist fanboys, because now we're not allowed to talk about how neo-Nazis are bad. Just as they intend.

This... this is perfect example of what I am describing, we use the morally and ethically consistent argument that Fascism is bad, so are all the socialist derivatives, however the socialist wants his version to be allowed, this is Marcuses repressive tolerance in action.

Rather than join us in the consistent criticism and call for censure of political speech on a forum that is non political they seek to bar all political speech other than their own using the fear and psychological scar of Nazism, after all liberals could think of nothing worse than a National socialist state oppressing their rights, this is in turn exploited in order to push the overton window further in the direction of the person/persons wishing to politicise a space for their own gain, the fascistic "the personal is political" as coined by Carol Hanisch in her book of the same name (one of the main cited founding scholars of CT and intersectionalism).

As Liberals we should put our foot down and tell these people "No", you are not allowed to discuss these things here, we reject your false premises, reject your false outrage and reject your attempts to coerce others into allowing you to take over the space for your own political gain.

Because we all know what happens when they do, they gatekeep, they browbeat and bully any liberal or free thinker out of the space on ideological grounds using the usual epithets, false accusations and falsehoods.

Just say no.

 Elemental wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Probably should have been deleted after the lock, tbh.

I think a lot of threads would benefit from complete exterminatus instead of just being locked. It would help drive home the point.

And it's a victory for the fascist fanboys, because now we're not allowed to talk about how neo-Nazis are bad. Just as they intend.

But at the same time Nazi propaganda would also be deleted, and hopefully people would realise this is not the forum for that sort of discussion.

At this point the word "Nazi" and "Fascist" are so overused anyway.

This is a gaming forum, we should just be able to talk about gaming. The mods decided that's what this forum was going to be back when they banned political discussion and I for one am glad they did. Political discussions on the internet build far more animosity in a community than benefit they might bring.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is a gaming forum, we should just be able to talk about gaming. The mods decided that's what this forum was going to be back when they banned political discussion and I for one am glad they did. Political discussions on the internet build far more animosity in a community than benefit they might bring.

When you have a story about actual Nazis showing up at a wargames tournament and not being immediately ejected and blacklisted, the political is unavoidable.

Why? If you want to actually avoid political discussion then you have to shut all of it down immediately. There was no reason to not lock the thread as soon as a mod saw it. If Dakka wants to end political/religious discussion then it needs to adapt a zero tolerance rule.

 Formosa wrote:

This... this is perfect example of what I am describing, we use the morally and ethically consistent argument that Fascism is bad, so are all the socialist derivatives, however the socialist wants his version to be allowed, this is Marcuses repressive tolerance in action.

Rather than join us in the consistent criticism and call for censure of political speech on a forum that is non political they seek to bar all political speech other than their own using the fear and psychological scar of Nazism, after all liberals could think of nothing worse than a National socialist state oppressing their rights, this is in turn exploited in order to push the overton window further in the direction of the person/persons wishing to politicise a space for their own gain, the fascistic "the personal is political" as coined by Carol Hanisch in her book of the same name (one of the main cited founding scholars of CT and intersectionalism).

As Liberals we should put our foot down and tell these people "No", you are not allowed to discuss these things here, we reject your false premises, reject your false outrage and reject your attempts to coerce others into allowing you to take over the space for your own political gain.

Because we all know what happens when they do, they gatekeep, they browbeat and bully any liberal or free thinker out of the space on ideological grounds using the usual epithets, false accusations and falsehoods.

Just say no.

Nah.

Not playing this game, and not entering any sort of political debate with an apologist for people who would shut down every form of debate with violence given half a chance. This is just more standard-issue babble from the apologist's playbook--whatboutisms coming out your ears, waving around the scary socialist bogeyman and SJW finger puppets, the usual gaslighting that no, no, we're the real champions of free speech and it's those mean old liberals who are doing all the oppressing.

Here's what it really comes down to:

Formosa is making excuses for Nazis.

trexmeyer wrote:
If Dakka wants to end political/religious discussion then it needs to adapt a zero tolerance rule.

But if you do that, how are you supposed to signal that you're not secretly Hitler?!

 Elemental wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is a gaming forum, we should just be able to talk about gaming. The mods decided that's what this forum was going to be back when they banned political discussion and I for one am glad they did. Political discussions on the internet build far more animosity in a community than benefit they might bring.

When you have a story about actual Nazis showing up at a wargames tournament and not being immediately ejected and blacklisted, the political is unavoidable.

Sooo... don't discuss it on Dakka?

Do you think discussing how Nazis are bad on a wargaming forum is going to make Nazis disappear? It won't.

 Elemental wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
This is a gaming forum, we should just be able to talk about gaming. The mods decided that's what this forum was going to be back when they banned political discussion and I for one am glad they did. Political discussions on the internet build far more animosity in a community than benefit they might bring.

When you have a story about actual Nazis showing up at a wargames tournament and not being immediately ejected and blacklisted, the political is unavoidable.

Of course it turns out the person in question was not ejected and under spanish law their views are protected and the organisers could not eject the person in spite of trying to and the person threatened to call the police if they tried, this is a side effect of "group" justice trying to cover all bases and beliefs treating all as equal as opposed to individual justice would have allowed for the specific case of this issue to be resolved and the person in question to be removed from the tourney, the nuance is utterly utterly lost on some though I am sure, National socialism is unequivocally evil, as are all forms of socialism, there is no redeeming factor for them, it is not equal to Liberalism and should not be treated under the same protections as other beliefs such as Islam, Christanity and others.

And so the excuse is made so the ideologue can try to politicise the space with their views while using the fear of the other, National Socialists, Kulaks, Jews etc. as a vector for control, it is so easy to see once you have read their literature, the target group changes but the tactics are always the same.



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Case in point, how to prove I am correct in my assessment with almost no effort at all.

trexmeyer wrote:
Why? If you want to actually avoid political discussion then you have to shut all of it down immediately. There was no reason to not lock the thread as soon as a mod saw it. If Dakka wants to end political/religious discussion then it needs to adapt a zero tolerance rule.

I think an appropriate response to that thread would have been to lock it pretty early. Basically as soon as it started generating complaints if not earlier.

Honestly I didn't even read past the first couple of posts in that thread because it was obvious from the get-go it'd be a train wreck.

It's really just a microcosm of the situation we see today - the far right noise machine is finally loud enough and brazen enough that no real enforcement can be done because "both sides, what about commies etc etc".

And so it keeps getting worse, from white supremacist aligned terror attacks (notice no communist aligned terror attacks) to people strutting in their swastika clad best.

It's Weimar all over again and the goosesteppers are playing the exact same tricks.

Maybe the mods could actually do something about the fascist aligned folks, but nah. Dakka can't have any sort of ban process or anything.

No, but we can ban them.
Punk, Furries, Metal Heads have all made Nazis unwelcomed in their spaces.

Yes, but they hate freeze peaches, especially punks. Wargamers aren't like those filthy animals, we can all be civilized and agree to disagree that nazis are bad. In fact, they were misunderstood, they were only trying to save the Western Civilization against the threat of socialism.

Formosa, you do know that the nazis sent social democrats and communists to concentration camps, don't you? That they absolutely hated the left? Have you read a history book? The local party here is called the Christian Social Union, but they are on the right end of the centre right here in Germany.

The "socialism" in "National Socialism" is an utter put-on. Plenty of thinkers have said this. I don't care if I see any penalty for this administration-wise; it's a gross misconception Formosa is putting across. It shouldn't go unchallenged.

But we do have a problem. BaconCatBug, a frequent community gak-stirrer, had or still has an account here. He took his 40k TTS mods off the Steam workshop because GW issued its "you will not be missed" statement, because that was apparently supporting BLM and supporting BLM is apparently supporting a "terrorist organization". How come we are fine with this sort of behavior?

he's talking about Moral and Ethical, not something as pedestrian as real life history.

 Da Boss wrote:
Formosa, you do know that the nazis sent social democrats and communists to concentration camps, don't you? That they absolutely hated the left? Have you read a history book? The local party here is called the Christian Social Union, but they are on the right end of the centre right here in Germany.

Yes, I also know that communists joined the SA in such numbers they used to joke about outnumbering the Nazis in the Brownshirts, Sternhill also covers much of this in his Book neither left nor right as part of his study of Fascism (Which national socialism is not), as for hating the left, leftist infighting has been a feature of socialists since the start and liquidating the radicals or opposition is a core feature, not that it is of course exclusive to socialism but as an authoritarian revolutionary ideology national socialism of course would adhere to this norm.

So yes, I have "read a history book" I have also read many philosophical books to gain understanding of the frameworks at play, national socialism is an ideological framework that could only have come from the left of the times, there is no way to get to that framework from right wing or conservative philosophical frameworks but I am happy for you to PM me some reading material showing otherwise and promise to read them with an open mind.


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Cronch wrote:
he's talking about Moral and Ethical, not something as pedestrian as real life history.

How materialist of you, do you not believe morality and ethics are "real", as for real life history, note I am the only one to cite the books and historical references here, not a single other person has.