Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Chainswords will have very weird handling in combat. This is even referenced by Cain in one of his books (the first siege of Perlia one I think).
It has a big spinning mass that will be doing all kinds of gyroscopic effects that will make swings weird, and will change depending on the direction of the chain movement. The teeth will catch on stuff leading to erratic sudden movements. It’s entirely possible that if you try to swing it, it’s going to end up in your own leg.
Traditional swords versus a moose may also do some weird stuff, especially if you hit the antlers, but I think you would be able to get reliable cut damage with less likelihood of self chibbing. Less horrendous open wounds perhaps, but still reliable damage.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
I've seen people juggle swords, and I've seen people juggle chainsaws. Both seem dangerous, but handleable by a skilled user. I'll call them both plausible for attacking an armored moose.
I don't think you'd ever want to chop down a big tree with a sword though. Advantage: chainsaw!
Insectum7 wrote: I've seen people juggle swords, and I've seen people juggle chainsaws. Both seem dangerous, but handleable by a skilled user. I'll call them both plausible for attacking an armored moose.
I don't think you'd ever want to chop down a big tree with a sword though. Advantage: chainsaw!
But it is very rare that the tree is actively trying to chop back. Handling of a weapon is still an important thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 wrote: More relevantly, the Evil Dead series shows that chainsaws are brutally effective weapons against demons
Ah yes, that quintessential primer on combat skills
I think we should just skip the chainsword and go straight to the car/helicopter hybrid
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/23 21:58:36
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
I can't speak for regular humans. But a post human space-marines should have no problem handling a chainsaw one handed from a weight and mass perspective.
For sisters of battle, or striking scorpions it is harder to see. It can be easily imagined that the sisters, on general, are to crazy to care as long as they are doing the good emperors work. (Or God emperor more like it.) Eldars can compensate with technology.
I have never seen any practical examples of someone wielding a chainsaw as a sword. It makes it hard to imagine.
Where are mythbusters when you need them? RIP Grant Imahara.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/23 22:41:25
Niiai wrote: But if you yourself also wore metal armour splinters would not nesassery face you.
But we just need a chainsaw from sterdier materials then. Witch the fictional setting provides.
any material that is sturdy can be used in armor as well as in chainsaw blades (and it would be stupid not to)
Right and we know from the lore that both weapons and tough armour are made of adamantium for imperial forces. We also know from the lore that chainswords do struggle against more armoured foes and that you have to aim and target weak points.
Against flesh though, it'll do the damage.
Edit: also in terms of balance that is more the trouble with chainsaws than the swords. Chainswords are presumably heaviest at the hilt where the generator is in order to combat the likely issue of imbalance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/23 22:41:40
There are a few videos on youtube, but the examples are either cosplay bits, or the wielder uses them like a chainsaw against an inanimate object, rather than in any kind of combat stance. I mean its understandable, because no-one wants to lose a limb to a rather unstable and unwieldy looking weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: I can't speak for regular humans. But a post human space-marines should have no problem handling a chainsaw one handed from a weight and mass perspective.
.
Agreed, however I do wonder if the complexity and annoyance of a chainsword is any real benefit over and above the blunt trauma that a marine could cause with a metal stick with nails through it
Chainswords are awesome and massively over the top, as they should be, but I don't think they are worth it, in the same way as Titans really.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/24 00:14:13
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Real chainsaws would be bad against a living moving target because the chains would be easily bumped off the track. You'd still cause a very nasty wound, but it would be inferior to just a normal sword.
Chainswords solve this with handwavium tech that keeps the chains from slipping off as easily.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I can not agree with that scenario. I just don't have much experiences with either swords or chainsaws (although a chainsword would be different. They are thicker for one thing.) I would need to see a comparison. Swords are great at killing stuff, chainsaw sellers try to avoid that rumour.
I suspect that effective use of a Chainsword is a martial discipline unto itself.
I’ll admit I’m crap with a real (well, LARP) sword, so take the following with a big old bag of salt. But….
It strike me that with a Chainsword, you’re better off letting the rippy bits do the really hard work. And to get their initial purchase on the target, you don’t want to be swinging it too hard, lest it bounce off in an unpredictable manner. Slower, more deliberate strokes might be the order of the day, compared to a regular or power sword, where you need some oomph to penetrate or slash.
And let’s not forget that like anything which is relatively standard Astartes issue, they’re terror weapons.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Eldar Scorpion chainswords (don't know about general purpose Eldar chainswords) are described in Gav Thorpe's novels as being no more noisy than a buzzing insect (a bee equivalent I think), and seem to operate on a force field or grav field basis so there may not even be a physical chain.
Hellebore wrote: They have been described as surviving impact and being left stuck in the target, so the material must be very strong to withstand all the forces applied to it. And the monomolecular edge should technically let it slide through any material it hits, assuming the force propelling it is able to overcome the density of the target.
They can be as strong as you want, they just have nearly zero kinetic energy and shouldn't be able to displace material they are trying to cut. Your knife is much more durable than a wooden cutting board but you will never cut it because it can't push wood to the sides, it's pushed back by the rest of the board. That's why saws need to literally push bits of the wood sideways out of cut line.
Now that I think about it, yup, shuriken working like round saw would be far better description than stupid GW one - its edge covered with thousands of teeth and rapidly spinning to eject cut bits of armour aside - too bad it doesn't work like this. It's both far more badass than what GW writer managed to come up with and actually makes some sense
What amuses me though is how lethally dangerous ricochets would be. With that much spin on them hitting a target and not sticking in would see them fly in all directions, almost as dangerous as the original shot to everyone else in the squad....
Yeah, becoming lethal shrapnel (which would be also a big problem during firing, slightest imperfection and the thing explodes in the barrel during acceleration) is another problem with the weapon, but that one can kinda-sorta be ignored with advanced materials or whatever. Though, this makes Eldar close combat squads arming themselves with shuriken pistols especially dumb. Harlequins choosing energy weapons instead proves they have a lot more common sense
Dawn of war gave them a high pitched sound
Yes, but it might be sound made but the gun, no?
Olthannon wrote: People love to pick this kind of stuff apart and say "pfft wouldn't work" but that means absolutely nothing.
No. Just no. It wouldn't work because it doesn't adhere to basic weapon functions. Picture a blunt knife. You can scream all you want it's made out of adamantium, wraithbone, or tyranid gakjunk, it's still useless because it's blunt. If fails basic knife function, no amount of "it's future" or "kNiFe LoGiC cHaNgEd" will handwave this away. It fails on so fundamental step it doesn't matter.
Olthannon wrote: And also more to the point, doesn't matter if you say "doesn't work" because it does in the game
Erm, no. There is a ton of stuff in game that was written by ignorant people who have no idea of what they are taking about (or didn't stop to think if their description makes any sense) that falls apart once you look at it. For example, that idiotic Forge World book stating Leman Russ armour is equivalent to 120 mm of mild steel (this is thinner than a lot of WW2 era tanks, and less than 10% of what thickest bit of modern tank has). Or that 1 million SM can keep whole galaxy in check. Or that only one regiment of stormtroopers exists and what we use in the game are single companies borrowed from it, a particularly idiotic notion.
I prefer (and find it more fun anyway) to ignore dumb bits and try to come up with ways to make them work, not cover my ears and just accept the most childish, immersion breaking bits that ruin the setting without thinking.
"Sooo dumb it can't possibly work!!"[/spoiler]
A fleck of paint caused significant damage to the Space Shuttle because it was travelling at orbital speeds. At high enough velocities it doesn't much matter what material you're getting hit with.
Technically when getting hit with a lascannon/gun/pistol, you're only getting hit with light which weighs like nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I suspect that effective use of a Chainsword is a martial discipline unto itself.
Spoiler:
I’ll admit I’m crap with a real (well, LARP) sword, so take the following with a big old bag of salt. But….
It strike me that with a Chainsword, you’re better off letting the rippy bits do the really hard work. And to get their initial purchase on the target, you don’t want to be swinging it too hard, lest it bounce off in an unpredictable manner. Slower, more deliberate strokes might be the order of the day, compared to a regular or power sword, where you need some oomph to penetrate or slash.
And let’s not forget that like anything which is relatively standard Astartes issue, they’re terror weapons.
Yeah, It's definitely more like weilding a heavy short sword. Let the weight do the work, not necessarily the edge.
Also add in adamantine tipped chains, probably more horsepower than an average car engine, weilded by a 7ft tall monster in armour that laughs at your weapons, would scare the gak out of me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/24 18:45:50
So the problem with Chainsword isn’t that they would do damage to soft targets. It’s that they would kick back and be bloody lethal to anyone using them as well. gakker something with a chainsaw and it will be messed up, but you will be as likely to lose a leg too. That why you need qualifications and lots of Ppe to use chainsaws professionally. But in 40k they are cool and brutal. So they work. No physics needed. It’s fantasy. Same with shuriken catapults. It’s a gun that fires molecule thin ninja stars by the dozen. Ridiculous, but cool. They can make whatever noise you want and damage however you like.
To remove the angular momentum of a chainsword, you just need something of equal weight rotating in the opposite direction. This can be a weighted counter chain inside the housing you can't see.
You could potentially reduce bounce back by having a tension sensor that reversed the blade when it detected the beginning of a catch on the target.
It wouldn't be fighting with a sword, but there would be ways of reducing the issues to make it somewhat wieldable.
Hellebore wrote: To remove the angular momentum of a chainsword, you just need something of equal weight rotating in the opposite direction. This can be a weighted counter chain inside the housing you can't see.
You could potentially reduce bounce back by having a tension sensor that reversed the blade when it detected the beginning of a catch on the target.
It wouldn't be fighting with a sword, but there would be ways of reducing the issues to make it somewhat wieldable.
If it paused or reversed each time it felt tension then it wouldn’t cut at all. You would smack it into an ORK and it would If these things were as easy to do as you say then they would exist in chainsaw technology.
All that extra stuff also adds more weight and complexity to the package. Very hard to say whether in reality it would be worth it. Obviously I. 40k it’s awesome and therefore justified
Traditional swords cut or bludgeon and rely on momentum provided by the user. If the main damage comes instead from the spinning blade then attack certainly becomes a different set of movements as it’s less about momentum and impact and more about time on target. However, defensively the movements may be very similar as you need to move your fancy metal bar into a position To block or deflect incoming weapons. I think the difficult bit is actually integrating controls that can be manipulated while wielding the thing to change chain speed and direction. Again, not hard for post human super soldiers or psychic space elves, but these things are also the defacto standard issue to squad sergeants and all manner of unaugmented humanity.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
I think the thing people are forgetting is that the chainsword has a trigger/pad for activation. A skilled qwielder would know when to gun it with the throttle and when to let it idle. Also it would depend on what clutch-type arrangement it utilizes.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Andykp wrote: So the problem with Chainsword isn’t that they would do damage to soft targets. It’s that they would kick back and be bloody lethal to anyone using them as well. gakker something with a chainsaw and it will be messed up, but you will be as likely to lose a leg too. That why you need qualifications and lots of Ppe to use chainsaws professionally. But in 40k they are cool and brutal. So they work. No physics needed. It’s fantasy. Same with shuriken catapults. It’s a gun that fires molecule thin ninja stars by the dozen. Ridiculous, but cool. They can make whatever noise you want and damage however you like.
Well, the vast majority of Chainswords we see are single edged. Only the forward part and tip of the chain is exposed, the back is covered with a blocky covering. That would prevent kick-back issues.
Eviserators are about the only chain weapons that have a double edge, and those are two handed affairs which would aid in the control of the weapon.
But again, you're not going to be fighting with a chainsword like a normal sword. If you watch the animations from the DoW games, Chainswords are used in slower cutting motions, more like holding the blade on the target and guiding it as it chews into the enemy than actual slashes or chops like a normal sword.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Going back to the Shuriken idea, I have a different way of thinking about them that... KINDA works with the fluff (not really, but maybe a little bit? Also, for those more science literate than I am: be gentle with me. I'm certain that my science is probably WAY off here!)
So, we know they use gravity somehow, yeah? We know that they are supposed to both spin and accelerate to high speeds, yeah? (actually, I'm not sure about the spin part, but let's say they do for now.)
What if the catapults work in sort of a two-pronged fashion:
1) the gun emits a very quick sort of gravity pulse, essentially just a straight line that creates a minor gravity well aimed at a vector and stopping when it hits something solid. Kinda like a laser, only not made of light.
This gravity well is extremely powerful, but also extremely specific. The thing being hit is unaffected by the well, nor is the gun. It's essentially (using Eldar space magic) keyed just for the projectiles.
2) The projectiles are released along that same gravity well in a tiny fraction of a second, spinning super fast and essentially locked into a straight line and moving to the target.
The projectiles (shuriken) have extremely small mass, and are both extremely brittle and extremely sharp. They are also spinning super fast of course.
The projectile proceeds along the line, gaining speed and momentum as it does, until it hits the target area. At this point either the momentum or perhaps some aspect of the gravity beam "pushes" them into the target, keeping them aligned like a saw against a plank of wood.
They have a hard time deflecting because the directional gravity is keeping them held firmly in place, and the high degree of spin causes them to act like a sort of buzz-saw held against a surface by a dude who is bracing it.
This leads to either A) the shuriken penetrating the surface eventually (a fraction of a second later) or B) the angle is wrong enough that it fights against the gravity well and breaks apart from the stress.
In the case of "A" we get a shuriken that embeds itself deep into the target and causes a horrific wound. In the case of "B" we get a shattered shuriken with pieces that are largely directed harmlessly in a single direction (towards the target) and thus keep the shuriken catapult user safe.
At least, that's my headcanon for it anyway. It kinda makes sense (as much as anything in 40k anyway,) even if it isn't exactly an efficient way to make a projectile weapon (use a @#$% gun, space elves!)
It also is fairly anti-armor and accounts for the broken shuriken and the intact ones. It's also relatively safe to the user as the broken shards largely go in the direction away from the user!
It's a neat thought, leerman, but I'm pretty dubious of this one. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few scenes in books describing shurikens glancing off of power armor. That seems to go against the continuous gravity well blade laser thing you're describing. Plus, we know that catapults have a really high rate of fire. So between that and several video games depicting them as having a certain amount of spread, the gun theoretically wouldn't be able to keep "pushing" an individual shuriken through a "tendril" of gravity because it has a hundred more shuriken being fired from a slightly different position coming out right after the first one.
I guess you could say that the gun is somehow generating a gravity "tendril" per projectile and a bunch of tendrils are coming out of the gun simultaneously and curving to follow the gun as its weird runs and guns, but I feel like that's a stretch.
Or do you mean that each shuriken has its own directional gravity "bubble" that moves with and affects only its own personal shuriken? I can't rule that out, although I *think* old books had diagrams of shuriken weapons with labels like "acceleration chamber" that always made me think the shuriken were getting sped upinside the gun rather than outside of it.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Niiai wrote: Have you tested that claim? Is fighting with chainsword less ideal with using just swords? At some point you come across something that is big, to big for the sword.
I think chainsaw (closest practical equivilant) is probably better VS a moose then a sword?
I mean, aside from this being even more baffling than much of the thread, what led you to “this would be more practical for fighting a moose” as a comparison?
I’m genuinely bemused!
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I would say neither would be effective vs a moose. Moose are living tanks so you'd need a minimum of a nice long spear before you might have a chance taking one on, and preferably a few friends.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Niiai wrote: Have you tested that claim? Is fighting with chainsword less ideal with using just swords? At some point you come across something that is big, to big for the sword.
I think chainsaw (closest practical equivilant) is probably better VS a moose then a sword?
I mean, aside from this being even more baffling than much of the thread, what led you to “this would be more practical for fighting a moose” as a comparison?
I’m genuinely bemused!
I have little experiences with swords. But I would assume a chainsaw would be able to sever any antlers or legs the moose is trying to kick you with, at least more reliable. Although parrying antlers with a chainsword leaves the moose with some very sharp stumps, so you are probably in quite a bit of danger either way. The practical questions are the weight of the chainsaw, starting it up and how fast it would sever something. But the nature of the discussion bypasses the first two as astardes have that covered.
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
Competition Index
