Switch Theme:

Why GW made Orks into semi-elite army?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






bibotot wrote:
I don't question the T5, but they could have at least nerf other aspects so that more Orks would die during the Leadership phase to balance out.


This bit just made my 7th edition Mob Rule PTSD flare up. Its never fun having your own army kill itself especially when there is little to nothing that can be done to mitigate it.

I don't agree with moving Orks to being a more "elite" army as there have been many play styles in the past that worked around a more elite focused army (Dread Mobs, Nob Biker Gangs, Blitz Brigade) while stuff like Biker Boyz and Trukk Boyz made it require far less models on the table than a Green Tide Boyz spam. Just do a decent job of giving the faction some internal balance and let people play the way they want to. Then again asking GW to do anything involving competent rules writing is an exercise in futility.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.


In 5th edition a competitive horde build would have 80 boyz, other archetypes could have as little as 30 (18 in BW+12 in trukk). Most ork armies had about 100 models in all slots combined.

Bringing nothing but boyz wasn't a viable tactic until 7th, and is a flaw in codex design, not a feature. Spamming a model 12 times as often as the minimum possible will always be unhealthy, no matter which unit it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 06:17:42


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Gave up playing ork horde. They die too easily compared to vehicles, bikes or buggies.

The entire format has a massive over powered shooting problem and it's getting worse. AP is everywhere and saves are impossible more often then not.

I dont mind losing, but being tabled immedietly isn't fun. And that's what happens with ork horde
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


It's a tragedy actually. Hopefully kroot can carry Tau's melee (and that not taking kroot as Tau means you're hamstringing yourself and will generally lose games), otherwise we'll have another boring binary mono-phase army that either has the shooting to blow most armies off the field to make up for their inability to play the missions and be unhealthy, or they can't and they'll just be dogshit. If those are my choices I'm hoping Tau are dogshit.


Why did you choose to play a faction whose entire identity is based around shooting things incredibly strong ranged weapons if you don't want to play an army whose main play style is shooting things with incredibly strong ranged weapons?


 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 Jidmah wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.


In 5th edition a competitive horde build would have 80 boyz, other archetypes could have as little as 30 (18 in BW+12 in trukk). Most ork armies had about 100 models in all slots combined.

Bringing nothing but boyz wasn't a viable tactic until 7th, and is a flaw in codex design, not a feature. Spamming a model 12 times as often as the minimum possible will always be unhealthy, no matter which unit it is.


5th games were also a smaller scale, and 7th had its own problems. “Spamming” a horde unit isn’t unhealthy, it’s how they’re meant to be used. If we want to use 5th as an example, the codex actively encouraged bringing a load of boyz just so they could not be physically killed. Another failure in your argument is that those were comp lists. I know we have the capacity to bring a ton of models, but it’s not even playable right now. Green tide is also different than nothing but boyz. 120 boyz at 8 points a piece, what they should be with t5, old mob rule and old ere we go, would be under 960, leaving room for their support.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Sim-Life wrote:


Why did you choose to play a faction whose entire identity is based around shooting things incredibly strong ranged weapons if you don't want to play an army whose main play style is shooting things with incredibly strong ranged weapons?


Its possible to likely the choice was made when close combat didn't give an edge on getting on objectives before your next command phase.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Hankovitch wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds


Measure and move for "front rank" of models. Then use your hand like a bulldozer blade to shove the rest of the mob into position behind the front rank of boyz.


I used to play with this kid that played orks about 5 years back, and i legit just let him do this, he always ran a bunch of boys and was always a really fun opponent because he was always having a good time.
He would try to move them one at a time and i just looked at him like "Joe...its ok, you can do what you wanna do." then just bulldozed the rest of his boyz forward

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






on the OP actually T5 orks kind of work at 9 points each if they did not suffer from thier morale issues. a smart player will look at a 30 man squad, kill 6, they fail morale on anythign but a 1. They then fail the leadership test and lose 1. each of the remaining rolls to run and with 23 boyz left 4 more run. they kill 6 boyz and get 5 more casualties free. the 19 man squad now repeat with kill 6, 13 left fail, 1 boy runs, 12 leadership and fail 2 more run down to 10. so kill 12 boyz, get 8 orks running free.

The old mob rule i have doen some experiments with willing opponents to see how things would play out and they work pretty well.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Breton wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


Why did you choose to play a faction whose entire identity is based around shooting things incredibly strong ranged weapons if you don't want to play an army whose main play style is shooting things with incredibly strong ranged weapons?


Its possible to likely the choice was made when close combat didn't give an edge on getting on objectives before your next command phase.


Well thats an issue of GW not being good at balancing or designing their game to accomodate all their factions, not a weakness in T'au's faction identity. As it stands T'au are currently one of the few armies in 40k who can't do everything and its one of the few things I'll give GW credit for.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


It's a tragedy actually. Hopefully kroot can carry Tau's melee (and that not taking kroot as Tau means you're hamstringing yourself and will generally lose games), otherwise we'll have another boring binary mono-phase army that either has the shooting to blow most armies off the field to make up for their inability to play the missions and be unhealthy, or they can't and they'll just be dogshit. If those are my choices I'm hoping Tau are dogshit.


The codex is leaked, they absolutely absolutely can. There are some cute little melee tools in codex: Tau.

Nothing for removing really tough, large models in melee (gotta have a weakness somewhere) but their anti-chaff and anti-elite melee ain't shabby at all. Also, you have multiple different ways to move after you've done your thing (crisis suits and I think also Pathfinders can do it) which means playing the missions isn't nearly as much of an achilles heel for the faction.

A squad of kroot or kroot hounds is more than capable of clearing a small squad of chaff off an objective, and a melee commander or squad of krootox can do the same for a small MEQ squad.

Shooting is absolutely, absolutely still the Tau's main tool, but at the very least it is now not impossible for them to play the objective game. From what I'm seeing, they have a few major tools that help with that

1 - the Ghostkeel is just an incredible piece for sitting in the backfield on a safe objective marker, because you just flat out cannot shoot it from beyond a certain range (seems to say 18") and its defenses even if you do shoot it are the vast majority of its 160pt power budget. It is a unit in 9e that is not 100% dead if it stays out in the open and not behind terrain

2 - Crisis Suits and I think also Pathfinders (pathfinders second move MIGHT technically occur in the shooting phase so dont quote me on that one) have cheap strats to move on to objectives that get cleared, and Crisis suits have absolutely been recast into a heavy infantry objective lockdown brick unit. You can also grant them Obsec with a commander aura.

3 - Kroot are maybe the single highest value light infantry unit for the points in the game, are decently melee capable (enough to flip a weakened min meq squad or a chaff squad) and have decent enough defenses in cover that you don't think theyre just automatically dead should your opponent turn eyes on them. For 60pts though theyre action monkeys par excellence.

4 - Krootox, no I'm not joking, are also quite neat little But Wait Theres More value packages. A4 S6 AP-2 D2 with WS3+ in melee, an autocannon in shooting, and a T5 W4 platform (admittedly with ZERO other defenses literally a 6+SV) for a measley 25pts per model. My friend wants 3x3, no joke, they also happen to be slotless if you bring kroot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 20:51:53


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Famous last words - but Kroot look seriously busted. If models were no object, and you wanted to play into "I hope you've bought enough horde clear" they seem like the way to go. You can bring 150~ and still have plenty of points for the point and click stuff.

Sure they'll die/run away to anything - but the damage output if ludicrous compared with other 5-6 point models. And you can spend your remaining points on stuff your opponent can't just ignore for 2 turns.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot






Hankovitch wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds


Measure and move for "front rank" of models. Then use your hand like a bulldozer blade to shove the rest of the mob into position behind the front rank of boyz.


Hahah this is how I move my orks during beer and pretzelhammer games.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Sim-Life wrote:


Why did you choose to play a faction whose entire identity is based around shooting things incredibly strong ranged weapons if you don't want to play an army whose main play style is shooting things with incredibly strong ranged weapons?


You misunderstand friend, if I was a Tau player I would be viciously defending my army's binary playstyle and pretending that rolling dice until the opponent goes away without ever having to interact with them is a healthy playstyle.

Luckily I am not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Well thats an issue of GW not being good at balancing or designing their game to accomodate all their factions, not a weakness in T'au's faction identity. As it stands T'au are currently one of the few armies in 40k who can't do everything and its one of the few things I'll give GW credit for.


Sorry friend but you're just wrong here. An army that can only do one thing is binary by design. "We only do anything in the shooting phase" is not an especially interest design philosophy, and it certainly isn't a healthy one. Good on GW for designing ninth edition to gut degenerate gunline playstyles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:

The codex is leaked, they absolutely absolutely can. There are some cute little melee tools in codex: Tau.


ngl kroot look kind of busted but glad GW at least is trying to do something to enable Tau to play the missions beyond just having the firepower to blow the enemy's army to pieces in two turns and then naturally get the lead on the primary. Hope it turns out strong without being overwhelming but we'll see.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 03:25:19


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Well thats an issue of GW not being good at balancing or designing their game to accomodate all their factions, not a weakness in T'au's faction identity. As it stands T'au are currently one of the few armies in 40k who can't do everything and its one of the few things I'll give GW credit for.


Sorry friend but you're just wrong here. An army that can only do one thing is binary by design. "We only do anything in the shooting phase" is not an especially interest design philosophy, and it certainly isn't a healthy one. Good on GW for designing ninth edition to gut degenerate gunline playstyles.



Whether or not shooting the absolute crap out of someone is interesting or not is subjective. Luckily 40k has enough factions to offer a bunch of different play styles, so if you don't want to shoot things to death you have other options. However it is absolutely up to GW to balance and design their game to make these playstyles compatible with each other, but they just don't bother to do so. Just because YOU don't find something interesting doesn't mean others don't and they shouldn't be punished because YOU find their preferred playstyle disagreeable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 08:41:29



 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


Why did you choose to play a faction whose entire identity is based around shooting things incredibly strong ranged weapons if you don't want to play an army whose main play style is shooting things with incredibly strong ranged weapons?


You misunderstand friend, if I was a Tau player I would be viciously defending my army's binary playstyle and pretending that rolling dice until the opponent goes away without ever having to interact with them is a healthy playstyle.

Luckily I am not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Well thats an issue of GW not being good at balancing or designing their game to accomodate all their factions, not a weakness in T'au's faction identity. As it stands T'au are currently one of the few armies in 40k who can't do everything and its one of the few things I'll give GW credit for.


Sorry friend but you're just wrong here. An army that can only do one thing is binary by design. "We only do anything in the shooting phase" is not an especially interest design philosophy, and it certainly isn't a healthy one. Good on GW for designing ninth edition to gut degenerate gunline playstyles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:

The codex is leaked, they absolutely absolutely can. There are some cute little melee tools in codex: Tau.


ngl kroot look kind of busted but glad GW at least is trying to do something to enable Tau to play the missions beyond just having the firepower to blow the enemy's army to pieces in two turns and then naturally get the lead on the primary. Hope it turns out strong without being overwhelming but we'll see.


on kroot yea they do not look that great solo, but i am hoping the hashing them out might lead to more models, maybe a heavier kroot in the veign of what guard got with ogryn and bullgryn. still i am going to work on a pure kroot army build just to play around with, they do not look like they will be very good but hey its technically playable and would be different.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
By the way, we finally have a GT winning list which played 40 boyz! I think this is a record!


In fairness, it was a GT in Australia and they aren't a real place anyway. last year they had some guy who won with orkz using insane lists like Killakanz ffs

Basically, Australia has a habit of being completely bat fething insane


As far as OP. Orkz at T5 are terrible. Not because they are too good, nope, the exact opposite. Ork Boyz right now are Bottom tier Non-competitive. GW removed almost all their stratagems, they nerfed Ere We Go, they removed 20+ rule, they nerfed Mob Rule into the ground, they nerfed a lot of kulture buffs that benefited boyz heavily, like ES +1 to charge. They nerfed Boyz support characters/HQs like Big Mek going from a 5++ to a 6++ and the weirdboy no longer gaining +1 for being near 10 models.

I use 30 boyz in my competitive lists, all as Trukk boyz, and all are throw away garbage units that I put ZERO effort into keeping alive longer than 2 turns.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Sim-Life wrote:

Whether or not shooting the absolute crap out of someone is interesting or not is subjective. Luckily 40k has enough factions to offer a bunch of different play styles, so if you don't want to shoot things to death you have other options. However it is absolutely up to GW to balance and design their game to make these playstyles compatible with each other, but they just don't bother to do so. Just because YOU don't find something interesting doesn't mean others don't and they shouldn't be punished because YOU find their preferred playstyle disagreeable.


You misunderstand friend. I am not talking about how fun Tau are to play at all.

When Tau are good however they have historically been one of if not the single most miserable army to play AGAINST. An army that sits down and blows you to hell from across the board without interacting with you is extremely binary, boring, and gakky to play against friend.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds

GW could have made that a bespoke special rule:

Unruly Mob:

Boyz have a tendency to push, shove, and generally rush towards the enemy more like a swarm of insects than orderly lines of soldiers. This is a tendency that most Nobz either encourage or are powerless to stop.

When moving a unit of Boyz pick a single model to move, this model may move or run as normal for a model from this unit. Once this model has been moved place all other models in the unit within 6" of it but not closer to any enemy unit than the lead model. If it is not possible to place models in this fashion place those models anyway but the unit may not charge this turn as they get tangled up in a rush to reach the enemy.

This isn't templated propely but you get the idea.

This is what I did in 8th with my 100+ boy hordes. Move 2-3 models in the front to get the outline of the unit, then grab handfuls of boys and shove them forward while keeping the footprint of the unit. Takes all of 15 seconds to move a 30 man mob. Never once had anyone complain, and they usually appreciated the speed
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Void__Dragon wrote:


When Tau are good however they have historically been one of if not the single most miserable army to play AGAINST. An army that sits down and blows you to hell from across the board without interacting with you is extremely binary, boring, and gakky to play against friend.


This was probably one of the major driving forces behind the change to primary and secondary objectives instead of victory/kill points.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
5th games were also a smaller scale, and 7th had its own problems.

It was? Until the last round of point drops shaved a whooping 90 points of my most competitive lists for 2000 points in 5th, it still didn't fit into 9th edition's 2000 points.

“Spamming” a horde unit isn’t unhealthy, it’s how they’re meant to be used.

Yeah, I know this you opinion because you enjoy the green tide playstyle, but it simply isn't true. Bringing 180 boyz is just as toxic people bringing 9 squig buggies, 15 MM attack bikes or 6 tau commanders. Being troops doesn't suddenly make spam OK, and it's clearly not how they are meant to be used.


If we want to use 5th as an example, the codex actively encouraged bringing a load of boyz just so they could not be physically killed.

In 5th edition most armies couldn't be killed over the course of 5 turns. IIRC until the rise of the leafblower some tournaments didn't even properly handle tablings because they were so rare.
On the flip side, you had to bring enough boyz to have some alive in the end because troops were the only units that could score at all and had to do so in the last turn.

Another failure in your argument is that those were comp lists. I know we have the capacity to bring a ton of models, but it’s not even playable right now.

The point is that it should be playable. You should be able to bring your green tide of 150+ ORKS and do well with them.
You should not be able to do well with 150+ BOYZ, because that is skewy spam.
Orks are not the same as boyz.

Green tide is also different than nothing but boyz. 120 boyz at 8 points a piece, what they should be with t5, old mob rule and old ere we go, would be under 960, leaving room for their support.

Almost a 1000 points spent on a single unit and you don't see this as a problem? Would you enjoy playing against 1000 points of whatever the next hot primaris unit will be?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
By the way, we finally have a GT winning list which played 40 boyz! I think this is a record!


In fairness, it was a GT in Australia and they aren't a real place anyway. last year they had some guy who won with orkz using insane lists like Killakanz ffs

Basically, Australia has a habit of being completely bat fething insane


If I read correctly, it's also the same guy who kept topping tournaments through 8th and even during 7th with the most insane lists that no one can use to replicate his success.

He is just an exceptional player and can probably win with any coherent list that fits his playstyle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 11:44:59


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Also, how spam is defined in entirely subjective. How many boxes of the same kit are needed in order to consider it a proper spam?

Because most stuff is considered spam by using 5-6 boxes of the same kit, including troops. Sometimes even less. So 60ish boyz could be already considered spam. I definitely consider that many boyz spam, for example. More than 90 simply an abomination instead.

No way a unit is "intended" to work properly by getting 9-10 (or even more) copies of the same box.

A proper green tide should be designed around 30-60 boyz, then add gretchins, nobz, meganobz, kommandos, stormboyz, tankbustas, lootas, flash gitz, characters, etc... reaching 90-150 bodies but without repeating the same profile over and over again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 11:53:35


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




UK

If you consider the prospect of facing 180 Boyz in a Battalion bad, I’d have a word with GW. They set the unit sizes, and the number of slots in a category. Or maybe play smaller games where 180 Boyz I’d not an option?

Perhaps they should do away with Troops, Elite etc and limit armies to a maximum of one unit per data slate, unless you paid extra points for them?
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Whether or not shooting the absolute crap out of someone is interesting or not is subjective. Luckily 40k has enough factions to offer a bunch of different play styles, so if you don't want to shoot things to death you have other options. However it is absolutely up to GW to balance and design their game to make these playstyles compatible with each other, but they just don't bother to do so. Just because YOU don't find something interesting doesn't mean others don't and they shouldn't be punished because YOU find their preferred playstyle disagreeable.


You misunderstand friend. I am not talking about how fun Tau are to play at all.

When Tau are good however they have historically been one of if not the single most miserable army to play AGAINST. An army that sits down and blows you to hell from across the board without interacting with you is extremely binary, boring, and gakky to play against friend.


And that is the fault of GW for not balancing the game to accommodate different playstyles. Gunlines existed in WmH but picking them apart, maneuvering and using unit abilities to shut them down was still fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 13:35:38



 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Blackie wrote:
Also, how spam is defined in entirely subjective. How many boxes of the same kit are needed in order to consider it a proper spam?

Because most stuff is considered spam by using 5-6 boxes of the same kit, including troops. Sometimes even less. So 60ish boyz could be already considered spam. I definitely consider that many boyz spam, for example. More than 90 simply an abomination instead.

No way a unit is "intended" to work properly by getting 9-10 (or even more) copies of the same box.

A proper green tide should be designed around 30-60 boyz, then add gretchins, nobz, meganobz, kommandos, stormboyz, tankbustas, lootas, flash gitz, characters, etc... reaching 90-150 bodies but without repeating the same profile over and over again.



Well, I'd count models/units with battle size, not kits because kits aren't uniform in size. It takes 6 kits to get 60 boys for 3 mobs of 20, but few people would really call 60 boys spamming at 2,000 points.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Blackie wrote:
Also, how spam is defined in entirely subjective. How many boxes of the same kit are needed in order to consider it a proper spam?

Because most stuff is considered spam by using 5-6 boxes of the same kit, including troops. Sometimes even less. So 60ish boyz could be already considered spam. I definitely consider that many boyz spam, for example. More than 90 simply an abomination instead.

No way a unit is "intended" to work properly by getting 9-10 (or even more) copies of the same box.

A proper green tide should be designed around 30-60 boyz, then add gretchins, nobz, meganobz, kommandos, stormboyz, tankbustas, lootas, flash gitz, characters, etc... reaching 90-150 bodies but without repeating the same profile over and over again.



So....
•Orkz come in boxes of 10.
•The basic boyz unit can have up to 30 models.
•To make 2 max sized units i need 6 boxes. Wich you're indicating is both spam (bad) AND the "proper" # I should build around (good).
But if I want 3 max size squads.... that's definitely a spammy abomination.
Really? 3 full basic Troops units is an abomination? BTW, I still have plenty if slots/pts for Gretchen etc.

But this wouldn't be a problem (or at least not the spammy abomination) if I were to make my 2 30x boyz + 2 20x squads (4 boxes) of Beastsnagga boyz - because those +2 pts & +1str = not the same box & TOTALLY not the same unit!

MEANWHILE, over in another super long thread....
You're all arguing & lamenting that boyz mobz aren't seen enough & are unplayable due to bad saves, terrible morale rules, & how killy current 40k is.
So were I to field 90+ boyz? I'll just lose about 50% of them to shooting/morale on turn 1.
Wich will give me about the # you're saying is good here, going into turn #2 - where they can begin doing something.
How do you think this goes if I'd just started turn 1 with 40-60 boyz?

   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Yeah, I didn't start Orks to bring only 40Boyz. My DG is aiming to bring 49 Plague Marines to the table so you bet I'm considering 90 Boyz to be the minimum requirement of the Ork army...
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, I didn't start Orks to bring only 40Boyz. My DG is aiming to bring 49 Plague Marines to the table so you bet I'm considering 90 Boyz to be the minimum requirement of the Ork army...


I'd expect to see at least 60, so 80-90 isn't far beyond that. At that point its 3-4 units of ObSec for fighting the missions.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

ccs wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Also, how spam is defined in entirely subjective. How many boxes of the same kit are needed in order to consider it a proper spam?

Because most stuff is considered spam by using 5-6 boxes of the same kit, including troops. Sometimes even less. So 60ish boyz could be already considered spam. I definitely consider that many boyz spam, for example. More than 90 simply an abomination instead.

No way a unit is "intended" to work properly by getting 9-10 (or even more) copies of the same box.

A proper green tide should be designed around 30-60 boyz, then add gretchins, nobz, meganobz, kommandos, stormboyz, tankbustas, lootas, flash gitz, characters, etc... reaching 90-150 bodies but without repeating the same profile over and over again.



So....
•Orkz come in boxes of 10.
•The basic boyz unit can have up to 30 models.
•To make 2 max sized units i need 6 boxes. Wich you're indicating is both spam (bad) AND the "proper" # I should build around (good).
But if I want 3 max size squads.... that's definitely a spammy abomination.
Really? 3 full basic Troops units is an abomination? BTW, I still have plenty if slots/pts for Gretchen etc.

But this wouldn't be a problem (or at least not the spammy abomination) if I were to make my 2 30x boyz + 2 20x squads (4 boxes) of Beastsnagga boyz - because those +2 pts & +1str = not the same box & TOTALLY not the same unit!

MEANWHILE, over in another super long thread....
You're all arguing & lamenting that boyz mobz aren't seen enough & are unplayable due to bad saves, terrible morale rules, & how killy current 40k is.
So were I to field 90+ boyz? I'll just lose about 50% of them to shooting/morale on turn 1.
Wich will give me about the # you're saying is good here, going into turn #2 - where they can begin doing something.
How do you think this goes if I'd just started turn 1 with 40-60 boyz?



OK, first I personally don't mind how boyz currently perform. They might be a bit better but fielding 20-30 is ok to me. To avoid losing them to morale field min squads. A battallion + patrol or even the most common 3x patrols both allow up to 9 troop units anyway. There's no need to go 3x30.

Then no, beastsnagga and boyz are basically the same unit. The example you provided would definitely still be spam from my standards .

Why is it ok to consider 3x max footslogging troop units the standard way to play orks while no other faction fields 3x max squads, even if that means buying 3 kits instead of 6. Or even one max squad of troops. How many 3x20 battle sisters squads, 3x20 kabalites/wyches or 3x10 intercessors squads do you see these days?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Yeah, I didn't start Orks to bring only 40Boyz. My DG is aiming to bring 49 Plague Marines to the table so you bet I'm considering 90 Boyz to be the minimum requirement of the Ork army...


Congrats? I aim to bring pretty much the entire army roster to the table, not just a few maxed out units. With little amount of boyz I can field more HQs, kommandos, meganobz, stormboyz, bikes, koptas, buggies, planes, walkers, mek gunz, wagons, etc...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/30 08:17:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Blackie wrote:
Spoiler:
ccs wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Also, how spam is defined in entirely subjective. How many boxes of the same kit are needed in order to consider it a proper spam?

Because most stuff is considered spam by using 5-6 boxes of the same kit, including troops. Sometimes even less. So 60ish boyz could be already considered spam. I definitely consider that many boyz spam, for example. More than 90 simply an abomination instead.

No way a unit is "intended" to work properly by getting 9-10 (or even more) copies of the same box.

A proper green tide should be designed around 30-60 boyz, then add gretchins, nobz, meganobz, kommandos, stormboyz, tankbustas, lootas, flash gitz, characters, etc... reaching 90-150 bodies but without repeating the same profile over and over again.



So....
•Orkz come in boxes of 10.
•The basic boyz unit can have up to 30 models.
•To make 2 max sized units i need 6 boxes. Wich you're indicating is both spam (bad) AND the "proper" # I should build around (good).
But if I want 3 max size squads.... that's definitely a spammy abomination.
Really? 3 full basic Troops units is an abomination? BTW, I still have plenty if slots/pts for Gretchen etc.

But this wouldn't be a problem (or at least not the spammy abomination) if I were to make my 2 30x boyz + 2 20x squads (4 boxes) of Beastsnagga boyz - because those +2 pts & +1str = not the same box & TOTALLY not the same unit!

MEANWHILE, over in another super long thread....
You're all arguing & lamenting that boyz mobz aren't seen enough & are unplayable due to bad saves, terrible morale rules, & how killy current 40k is.
So were I to field 90+ boyz? I'll just lose about 50% of them to shooting/morale on turn 1.
Wich will give me about the # you're saying is good here, going into turn #2 - where they can begin doing something.
How do you think this goes if I'd just started turn 1 with 40-60 boyz?



OK, first I personally don't mind how boyz currently perform. They might be a bit better but fielding 20-30 is ok to me. To avoid losing them to morale field min squads. A battallion + patrol or even the most common 3x patrols both allow up to 9 troop units anyway. There's no need to go 3x30.

Then no, beastsnagga and boyz are basically the same unit. The example you provided would definitely still be spam from my standards .

Why is it ok to consider 3x max footslogging troop units the standard way to play orks while no other faction fields 3x max squads, even if that means buying 3 kits instead of 6. Or even one max squad of troops. How many 3x20 battle sisters squads, 3x20 kabalites/wyches or 3x10 intercessors squads do you see these days?.


My point here is that be it orks or whatever, your logic & math don't line up concerning spam and its evils.
Fortunately there's enough options in the Ork codex to accommodate your style, my 3x30 mobz, the tourney players buggy/plane list, dredmobz, etc etc etc. Oh, and the occasional weirdo running all grots...

As to your other questions?
• No, I don't think 3x30 foot boyz has to be the standard way to play boyz. It's just A way & how I choose. It has nothing to do with how other players field their armies troops.

• Factions don't field anything. PLAYERS do. And I've seen plenty of players field several (as in 2-3) max sized troop units - SoB, SM types, Guard, etc
Drukhari? Sometimes. I know the other Drukhari player in our Crusade has a whole bunch of foot wyches. Couldn't tell you how they're currently set up.
I DO frequently see 3+ 20x units of Necron Warriors & Admech guys. And the Guard player with Maxed out units of conscripts.



   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

My point is that we can have a functioning, fun to play (with and against) and fluffy greentide without spamming one unit.

To me boyz, beastnaggas, stormboyz, kommandos, burnaboyz, tankbustas, lootas are all boyz. Just with a different weapon or slightly different abilities. So a proper greentide would bring lots of bodies, say 120-150 orks, or even more, but with 30-40ish% troops and completed with specialists, which are still reasonably cheap compared to elite oriented armies' specialists. Then characters and eventually other profiles' units such as gretchins, nobz, meganobz, flash gitz. I don't think it's unreasonable.

Consider that:

6x10 boyz
2x10 kommandos
10 burnaboyz
2x10 stormboyz
10 tankbustas
2x10 lootas

.... are 1580 points and 140 models. Isn't it a proper greentide? 180 boyz is 1620. -40 models (or -35 if the use the exact same points) but much more variety on the table in terms of tactics and game mechanics, the army wouldn't simply just slog towards the enemy.

Spamming 120+ boyz was never a themed thing, it was a gamey thing. The concept behind that is to invalidate powerful weapons as much as possible. That's why greentide defenders hate fielding 40-50% boyz and then specialists, because they wouldn't maximize this tactic then. Powerful weapons targeting specialists is also a waste, but not as much than offering them nothing different than the cheapest bodies in the codex. It's a tedious and gamey mechanic that shouldn't be encouraged. Possible definitely, but not powerful.

And in fact 3x30, but also 6x30 boyz is still legal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/30 11:57:03


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: