Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Blackie wrote: My point is that we can have a functioning, fun to play (with and against) and fluffy greentide without spamming one unit.
To me boyz, beastnaggas, stormboyz, kommandos, burnaboyz, tankbustas, lootas are all boyz. Just with a different weapon or slightly different abilities. So a proper greentide would bring lots of bodies, say 120-150 orks, or even more, but with 30-40ish% troops and completed with specialists, which are still reasonably cheap compared to elite oriented armies' specialists. Then characters and eventually other profiles' units such as gretchins, nobz, meganobz, flash gitz. I don't think it's unreasonable.
.... are 1580 points and 140 models. Isn't it a proper greentide? 180 boyz is 1620. -40 models (or -35 if the use the exact same points) but much more variety on the table in terms of tactics and game mechanics, the army wouldn't simply just slog towards the enemy.
Spamming 120+ boyz was never a themed thing, it was a gamey thing. The concept behind that is to invalidate powerful weapons as much as possible. That's why greentide defenders hate fielding 40-50% boyz and then specialists, because they wouldn't maximize this tactic then. Powerful weapons targeting specialists is also a waste, but not as much than offering them nothing different than the cheapest bodies in the codex. It's a tedious and gamey mechanic that shouldn't be encouraged. Possible definitely, but not powerful.
And in fact 3x30, but also 6x30 boyz is still legal.
Thats not how GW presents it in the fluff. In the fluff the green tide is 120 boyz. Everything else is other clans or special exceptions. Also you're trying to dictate how people should play their army, which I suppose falls under the umbrella of "you're having fun wrong" in terms of where your posts tend to lie.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/30 12:14:19
Lol, in that fluff along with 120 boyz there's also the entire ork roster, which doesn't fit a 2000 points list. I don't remember GW saying that ork green tides fight with just boyz.
I'm not dictating anything, I'm just arguing that I'm backing GW idea to remove hordes of boyz as competitive lists archetypes and also that that's entirely possible to field hordes of orks without spamming one single profile, which in my opinion was just a gamey mechanic that was a consequence of an era in which the ork codex sucked and one of the very few ways to field orks competitively was to spam the cheap troops and possibly play with the clock. That's it.
If you're having fun playing 120+ boyz good for you, in fact you still can. No one prevents you from doing that. Countless complaints from both ork players and their opponents who hated playing that way finally convinced GW to push other archetypes by buffing units that have been awful for a very long time. In this moment orks are in a very good spot and even boyz show up pretty frequently in the lists that place at events.
Just not the greentides, or any other horde from different factions actually.
GW recently nerfed, or actually even invalidated, some ork lists that spammed flyers and buggies. Is it GW saying "you're having fun wrong" to the guys who were fielding such lists? Or maybe they just corrected a style of playing that was never intended and for the majority wasn't fun to play or play against?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/30 13:55:51
Blackie wrote: My point is that we can have a functioning, fun to play (with and against) and fluffy greentide without spamming one unit.
To me boyz, beastnaggas, stormboyz, kommandos, burnaboyz, tankbustas, lootas are all boyz. Just with a different weapon or slightly different abilities. So a proper greentide would bring lots of bodies, say 120-150 orks, or even more, but with 30-40ish% troops and completed with specialists, which are still reasonably cheap compared to elite oriented armies' specialists. Then characters and eventually other profiles' units such as gretchins, nobz, meganobz, flash gitz. I don't think it's unreasonable.
.... are 1580 points and 140 models. Isn't it a proper greentide? 180 boyz is 1620. -40 models (or -35 if the use the exact same points) but much more variety on the table in terms of tactics and game mechanics, the army wouldn't simply just slog towards the enemy.
Spamming 120+ boyz was never a themed thing, it was a gamey thing. The concept behind that is to invalidate powerful weapons as much as possible. That's why greentide defenders hate fielding 40-50% boyz and then specialists, because they wouldn't maximize this tactic then. Powerful weapons targeting specialists is also a waste, but not as much than offering them nothing different than the cheapest bodies in the codex. It's a tedious and gamey mechanic that shouldn't be encouraged. Possible definitely, but not powerful.
And in fact 3x30, but also 6x30 boyz is still legal.
Thats not how GW presents it in the fluff. In the fluff the green tide is 120 boyz. Everything else is other clans or special exceptions. Also you're trying to dictate how people should play their army, which I suppose falls under the umbrella of "you're having fun wrong" in terms of where your posts tend to lie.
Yes, a green tide in the fluff at Armageddon was exactly 120 boyz, no more, no less. Also green tide only refers to boyz +1 warboss.
It's a concept, the numbers are mutable. GW considers it the name for an uncountable or unassailable volume of orks of all types. In game terms it refers back mostly to formations etc that were just max boyz units slammed into 1 unit with a warboss.
On the topic of spamming, if I'm playing my guard, how many infantry squads are considered to be too many? Because seriously, against anyone with even a hint of anti-infantry firepower, they melt away in insane numbers. And the specialist infantry units are just absolute crap because they have the typical issue of such unit, they're incredibly vulnerable. After all, if I were to take a heavy weapons squad with three lascannons, why wouldn't they be blasted off the board right away?
Why is it ok to consider 3x max footslogging troop units the standard way to play orks while no other faction fields 3x max squads, even if that means buying 3 kits instead of 6. Or even one max squad of troops. How many 3x20 battle sisters squads, 3x20 kabalites/wyches or 3x10 intercessors squads do you see these days?
Because Orks are somewhat like a unit within a model within a unit. Between their shooting and their saves, its almost like three models = 1 (unit)model = 1/10th of a unit. Now I wouldn't run 30 either, I'd run 20, but that's probably "worse" than running 10 or 30. I actually thought about running 1x10 assault intercessors until I couldn't find the mid-game Combat Squad Strat. I wanted to run 10 (plus an escort force) up to an objective, Strat, Drop 5 on the objective and run the other five to another - but without the strat - Meh, I moved on. It wasn't the 10, it was the not-squadding after. And maybe it's there, but I couldn't find it between 800,000 different books, supplements, FAQ's, PDFs and Printouts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dolnikan wrote: On the topic of spamming, if I'm playing my guard, how many infantry squads are considered to be too many? Because seriously, against anyone with even a hint of anti-infantry firepower, they melt away in insane numbers. And the specialist infantry units are just absolute crap because they have the typical issue of such unit, they're incredibly vulnerable. After all, if I were to take a heavy weapons squad with three lascannons, why wouldn't they be blasted off the board right away?
Guard will find it hard to get to "spamming" their troops. Hell, they'll find it harder to have enough troops than to spam too many, because their squad size is 10 and only 10. Guard get side eye for the Loyal 32/62 instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 05:25:51
You misunderstand friend. I am not talking about how fun Tau are to play at all.
When Tau are good however they have historically been one of if not the single most miserable army to play AGAINST. An army that sits down and blows you to hell from across the board without interacting with you is extremely binary, boring, and gakky to play against friend.
What are you talking about? I loved playing against Tau Triptide wings or Onions of death where I knew my army couldn't even assault him because if I did I was basically opening myself up to an entire extra round of shooting. My personal favorite was against one guy who brought 80 Firewarriors in 2 onions of death which literally had more than enough firepower in Overwatch to kill an entire blob of 30 boyz.
