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Made in vn
Dakka Veteran




The Orks are absolutely the most common horde army of 40k throughout history. Why did GW feel the need to make Boyz 9 points per model? I don't question the T5, but they could have at least nerf other aspects so that more Orks would die during the Leadership phase to balance out.

Part of the charm of playing Orks was rolling a bucketload of dice when attacking. And now you are just rolling less.

I really hate that they boost all Orks by 1 Toughness instead of giving them an option to do so at a cost so that you can still have the option to field them as a horde army of cheap, expandable models. For a race that is supposedly the most populous galaxy, a single Ork shouldn't be so expensive to field.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Because the majority of ork player doesn't like to transport, paint and move over a hundred models as a minimum requirement.

Most pople do not enjoy playing against such an army either.

And third, orks was one of the most expensive and tedious armies to start since you had to have 90 boyz as a base requirement.

It's also worth noting that morale WAS nerfed to compensate for T5, and indeed nerfed so hard that boyz are borderline unplayable right now.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




UK

Hi Jiddah.

Don’t know about the ‘majority’ of Ork players struggling with 90 Boyz, or people ‘ not enjoying’ games against a horde army. Perhaps from a competition, 2k points army, view point, but not everyone plays that format.

Previous editions of the Codex gave you viable options to play Ork horde, or vehicle horde, or artillery horde. It was a horde army. This Codex/edition does not support that style. Part of the ongoing trend of reducing options in the Ork Codex. It appears GW are trying to dictate the army composition, rather than allowing players the choice.

Why are they doing this? Don’t know. A wise man once said ‘never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity’, but I’d really like a word or two with whoever is writing the Ork Codex.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Rolling less? In what reality?

Orks roll tons of dice, much more than before. What's different is that also other armies roll tons of dice.

My guess is that GW turned orks into a semi-elite force because they wanted that faction to be accessible to new players, and not gatekeeping by keeping them much more expensive and time consuming (to paint countless models) than most of the other factions.

Vehicle/bikes horde is still a thing though. In fact it's much more a thing now than in the previous editions.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Boyz have an upper model limit of 30 models.
You can fit 180 boyz in a battalion, and there is nothing stopping you from doing that if that's what you want to do. You will not win a GT with such a list, but you are talking about non competiitive play, so where's the problem?

Yes, you could play more support pieces with such an horde in the previous dex, since they costed 180 points less, but that doesn't mean that they stopped being an horde faction.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon





bibotot wrote:
The Orks are absolutely the most common horde army of 40k throughout history. Why did GW feel the need to make Boyz 9 points per model? I don't question the T5, but they could have at least nerf other aspects so that more Orks would die during the Leadership phase to balance out.

Part of the charm of playing Orks was rolling a bucketload of dice when attacking. And now you are just rolling less.

I really hate that they boost all Orks by 1 Toughness instead of giving them an option to do so at a cost so that you can still have the option to field them as a horde army of cheap, expandable models. For a race that is supposedly the most populous galaxy, a single Ork shouldn't be so expensive to field.


Because they're making everything more expensive points wise to shrink army size. Orks will still be somewhat a horde army, but hordes will be smaller. At 9 points a model you're still less than half of a Marine cost, about 75% of a Necron Warrior. IG are cheaper, but they'd have a tough time going horde due to unit size and FOC restrictions. Its still pretty much Orks and Nids Who Want To.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Spoletta wrote:
Boyz have an upper model limit of 30 models.
You can fit 180 boyz in a battalion, and there is nothing stopping you from doing that if that's what you want to do. You will not win a GT with such a list, but you are talking about non competiitive play, so where's the problem?

Yes, you could play more support pieces with such an horde in the previous dex, since they costed 180 points less, but that doesn't mean that they stopped being an horde faction.


In my experience, you don't even have a decent chance of winning non-competitive games with such a list. It's about on the level of a marine player bringing nothing but tactical marines. Any coherent army will walk all over you.

In the past an ork horde was just 120x boyz, that was not healthy.

However, what a healthy ork horde should look like is something like this:

Spoiler:
Warboss
Support HQ

Beast Snagga Boyz
Boyz
Boyz

Kommadoz
Nobz
Tank Bustas
Support Character(s)

Storm boyz
Storm boyz

Flash Gits
Lootas
Lootas


That's still a tide of green ladz, it's just that not all of them are boyz.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

An Ork army usually has lots of bad shooters which compensates for the lower ballistic skill.
But with Ork boys of 9 pts, the number of lot of shooters reduces heavily when compared with Orks of 6 pts.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in tw
Fresh-Faced New User




i think has to do with their relatively new pricing of $50 USD for a box of 10 basic infantry.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





It has to do with the fact that all codexes so far have increased the point costs of models and powered them up.

GW is trying to reduce the number of models on the table, which is honestly something I'm very fine with.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Why are tyranids a gunline army now?
Why are Sisters getting babycarriers and new tanks?
Why do Space Marines do Aspects better than Eldar?
Because GW cannot into faction identity. It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are tyranids a gunline army now?
Why are Sisters getting babycarriers and new tanks?
Why do Space Marines do Aspects better than Eldar?
Because GW cannot into faction identity. It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


Tyranids are a gunline army by mistake not intent, but they've always been a mixed arms army that titled towards melee like chaos marines and their units reflect this.
Sisters army identity is they're religious to the extreme with no psykers, baby carriers and tanks don't change that.
I'm glad you have a copy of the 9th Eldar codex for a contemporary parallel.

Orks have always been anything between a numberless horde of meatheads right up to mechanised tank company, this hasn't changed. What changed is boyz got pricier so you have less (or none in most peoples case).

You're confusing tournament meta builds with faction identity.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are tyranids a gunline army now?
Why are Sisters getting babycarriers and new tanks?
Why do Space Marines do Aspects better than Eldar?
Because GW cannot into faction identity. It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


Basically this.

Orks can still Horde, but they went a little to far not pushing it. They want all armies to play multiple ways to not have someone be like "I like the army but not the play style".

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Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Spoletta wrote:
It has to do with the fact that all codexes so far have increased the point costs of models and powered them up.

GW is trying to reduce the number of models on the table, which is honestly something I'm very fine with.

As annouced, vehicles will get cheaper.
But this will not lead to a larger number of vehicles in the game due to the current meta.
What would help to bring more vehicles to the battle is to give vehicles say 5 or 10 pts for scoring (depending on the pt cost of the vehicle).

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





By the way, we finally have a GT winning list which played 40 boyz! I think this is a record!
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I'm sure that certain ork players taking forever to complete their turns moving/shooting had no effect on the change either.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Stormonu wrote:
I'm sure that certain ork players taking forever to complete their turns moving/shooting had no effect on the change either.


God, having a mob of shoota boys, move and shoot only to do like 1-2 damage to their target was such a slog in 8th, especially at the casual tables of my LGS
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.

120 boys is fine, if you use movement trays.
Legit adding 30 minutes over the game just because of movement/charge/pilein/consolidate isnt fun for the opponent

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 16:26:33


 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Spoletta wrote:
By the way, we finally have a GT winning list which played 40 boyz! I think this is a record!

Understandable as Ork boyz feel more like being elitisch.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.

120 boys is fine, if you use movement trays.
Legit adding 30 minutes over the game just because of movement/charge/pilein/consolidate isnt fun for the opponent


It’s 40k, talk with your opponent while you’re playing or something. And I timed myself actually, by the end of 8th I was pushing 30 boyz in under a minute. Doesn’t take too long, the dice can be sped up too.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.

120 boys is fine, if you use movement trays.
Legit adding 30 minutes over the game just because of movement/charge/pilein/consolidate isnt fun for the opponent


It’s 40k, talk with your opponent while you’re playing or something. And I timed myself actually, by the end of 8th I was pushing 30 boyz in under a minute. Doesn’t take too long, the dice can be sped up too.


I think you overestimate the average player's capacity to play fast while holding a conversation. I don't mind games going long personally, but when there are store events, having 3-4 hours games isn't ideal.

If 40k had more strict rules for moving mobs, it would probably help a lot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 19:40:30


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just kinda nuked a lot of play styles. Honestly if there was an edition to make everything good so people would buy in it would be 9th.
120 boyz is also not unhealthy, 5th Ed dex literally outright said to bring more bodies than bullets. If you take all plasma I’m going to swarm you, simple as.

120 boys is fine, if you use movement trays.
Legit adding 30 minutes over the game just because of movement/charge/pilein/consolidate isnt fun for the opponent


It’s 40k, talk with your opponent while you’re playing or something. And I timed myself actually, by the end of 8th I was pushing 30 boyz in under a minute. Doesn’t take too long, the dice can be sped up too.

To accurately move them at 2s per model you must have been yeeting them like a darts player.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Stab in the dark from my own peanut gallery but current 40k is 100% tournament edition and designed and driven by the tournament community.

It is not tournament friendly to have to collect, paint, setup, move, activate etc 120+ models.

The tournament ork players I knew were always trying to run the elite version of the army already over the years, from the nob biker list, to the terminator lists, etc.

I think to answer the question why did they become this semi-elite army is so that they could be represented in tournaments better.
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 Backspacehacker wrote:
No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds

GW could have made that a bespoke special rule:

Unruly Mob:

Boyz have a tendency to push, shove, and generally rush towards the enemy more like a swarm of insects than orderly lines of soldiers. This is a tendency that most Nobz either encourage or are powerless to stop.

When moving a unit of Boyz pick a single model to move, this model may move or run as normal for a model from this unit. Once this model has been moved place all other models in the unit within 6" of it but not closer to any enemy unit than the lead model. If it is not possible to place models in this fashion place those models anyway but the unit may not charge this turn as they get tangled up in a rush to reach the enemy.

This isn't templated propely but you get the idea.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






I mean really it was an unspoken rule between players. It was like wobbly model syndrom, everyone just accepted it as normal.
Or just get movement trays, it helps out a lot.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's frankly a miracle that the new T'au book didn't also have some kind of melee focussed crisis suit entry in it.


It's a tragedy actually. Hopefully kroot can carry Tau's melee (and that not taking kroot as Tau means you're hamstringing yourself and will generally lose games), otherwise we'll have another boring binary mono-phase army that either has the shooting to blow most armies off the field to make up for their inability to play the missions and be unhealthy, or they can't and they'll just be dogshit. If those are my choices I'm hoping Tau are dogshit.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The best way to make affordable horde armies, if GW doesnt and it will not lower prices, is to add replenishement mechanics to that kind of armies, so people can feel the horde gameplay without having to buy 200 miniatures.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Backspacehacker wrote:
No lol how we did it back when we had to move 120+ models
Find the farthest forward model, move it to the desired distance.
Then procced to move every other modle in the unit behind that furthest moves model.

It was not hard, moving 120 models you could easy move a model in under a second or definity under 2 seconds


Measure and move for "front rank" of models. Then use your hand like a bulldozer blade to shove the rest of the mob into position behind the front rank of boyz.
   
 
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