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I'm still on the fense with Dragons. They still feel like a one shot and done type unit. I think I can get better mileage out of other units, even though they do less damage per turn (but may last longer).

In former editions, I never went out without 2x5 Fire Dragons.
They never let you down and get the job done if necessary.

I think there might be a few semi competitive builds I'm working on 2 now. One alpha strike and one ignore Los list or combo. Other than that I don't really see what all the hype is for. It seems pretty bland, restricted, so so so many nerfs and so few meaningful buffs. Tons of useless strats, or way too specific to ever come up strats.

Even still it's good to talk about ways we can take advantage of what we do have.

 kingheff wrote:
Beating GSC and Sisters on the way to getting dumped on by T'au in the final but even there they lost whilst getting the most points so that's the tiniest crumb of comfort I guess...

Ummm most points in tournament? Or in game? In game if they got most points that would be win so more than tiny crumb?

tneva82 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Beating GSC and Sisters on the way to getting dumped on by T'au in the final but even there they lost whilst getting the most points so that's the tiniest crumb of comfort I guess...

Ummm most points in tournament? Or in game? In game if they got most points that would be win so more than tiny crumb?

Most points from a losing position, the craftworlds probably did give the T'au the hardest game, even more than Custodes, but they still got crushed because the T'au resilience is rediculous.

Had my first game on Monday vs Drukhari

Eldar got off to a phenomenal start, their reliable damage from shooting is just so nice to have. I certainly won't miss having to roll D6 for my bright lances!

At the end of turn two it looked like Eldar were going to wipe the floor but then things started to get into combat and the list I built was largely built around firepower.

Tables quickly tipped back in the favour of Drukhari with the end score being 80 - 61 in their favour.

Honestly I was happy to lose though. It was a super fun game, i feel like the new book plays them exactly how you would expect them to be.

The auto-wound within 9" on Fire Dragons is disgustingly good though, I must admit. Especially if you can get guide on them. Alongside bringing down a raider early on, they shot at a large unit of grotesques which normally can only be wounded on 4+ but not having to roll at all just bypassed that ability entirely.

List building is certainly tricky now - it's easy to get carried away with weapon upgrades and exarch abilities on aspects - they points can add up very quickly.

Basic windriders at 20 points a model are actually very viable now with their 18" twin shurikens. I took a unit of 5 for 20 shots and because of the new AP-1 shuriken ability they were very effective.

Couple of things i LOVED about the new book was the 1cp strat to perform a psychic action and still cast. That's going to make psychic secondaries much more viable (and it did in this game). The will of asuryan power is also awesome for giving obsec to non-obsec units. Big fan.

List I played was 2 patrol detachments to minimise troops (at the moment i only have guardans tabletop ready) and open up some extra elite / heavy support slots.

 Crafter91 wrote:
Had my first game on Monday vs Drukhari

Eldar got off to a phenomenal start, their reliable damage from shooting is just so nice to have. I certainly won't miss having to roll D6 for my bright lances!

At the end of turn two it looked like Eldar were going to wipe the floor but then things started to get into combat and the list I built was largely built around firepower.

Tables quickly tipped back in the favour of Drukhari with the end score being 80 - 61 in their favour.

Honestly I was happy to lose though. It was a super fun game, i feel like the new book plays them exactly how you would expect them to be.

The auto-wound within 9" on Fire Dragons is disgustingly good though, I must admit. Especially if you can get guide on them. Alongside bringing down a raider early on, they shot at a large unit of grotesques which normally can only be wounded on 4+ but not having to roll at all just bypassed that ability entirely.

List building is certainly tricky now - it's easy to get carried away with weapon upgrades and exarch abilities on aspects - they points can add up very quickly.

Basic windriders at 20 points a model are actually very viable now with their 18" twin shurikens. I took a unit of 5 for 20 shots and because of the new AP-1 shuriken ability they were very effective.

Couple of things i LOVED about the new book was the 1cp strat to perform a psychic action and still cast. That's going to make psychic secondaries much more viable (and it did in this game). The will of asuryan power is also awesome for giving obsec to non-obsec units. Big fan.

List I played was 2 patrol detachments to minimise troops (at the moment i only have guardans tabletop ready) and open up some extra elite / heavy support slots.

Eldar is not a cc-oriented army. You need to keep the enemy at arm's length which is not always possible, especially against Drukhari.
But its good to see that different armies (Drukhari, Tau) pose different threats to the new Eldar that need to be considered.

I'm looking for an opinion from the seer council . How much is too much Fire Prisms ? I really like the unit but investing into heavy support vehicles always feels like a gamble to me, even if I can magnetize them to double duty as Night Spinners.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
I'm looking for an opinion from the seer council . How much is too much Fire Prisms ? I really like the unit but investing into heavy support vehicles always feels like a gamble to me, even if I can magnetize them to double duty as Night Spinners.

The main issue I see with prisms is that the strat requires the tanks to be within 12" and visible to each other. Judicious use of fire and fade or vectored engines can lessen the problem but, depending on the terrain, it could be quite tricky to set this up since you want to keep behind cover with both tanks wherever possible. If you can magnetise them you'll be very happy since spinners are great and prisms are good with the caveats I mentioned. I seem to remember someone saying that they're not easy to magnetise but I might be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of close combat id argue that it's the area where we've got the biggest improvement. Banshees, spears and scorpions are up with the best from pretty any codex. They are expensive and fragile but they hit hard with some decent trickery too. Some of the phoenix lords are absolute beatsticks now too. The list Brad Chester got to the art of war RTT livestream tournament made good use of banshees scorps, karandras and Jain zar.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
I'm looking for an opinion from the seer council . How much is too much Fire Prisms ? I really like the unit but investing into heavy support vehicles always feels like a gamble to me, even if I can magnetize them to double duty as Night Spinners.

I wouldn't invest in HS vehicles (other than Falcons), but in Dark Reapers (2x5).

 kingheff wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
I'm looking for an opinion from the seer council . How much is too much Fire Prisms ? I really like the unit but investing into heavy support vehicles always feels like a gamble to me, even if I can magnetize them to double duty as Night Spinners.

The main issue I see with prisms is that the strat requires the tanks to be within 12" and visible to each other. Judicious use of fire and fade or vectored engines can lessen the problem but, depending on the terrain, it could be quite tricky to set this up since you want to keep behind cover with both tanks wherever possible. If you can magnetise them you'll be very happy since spinners are great and prisms are good with the caveats I mentioned. I seem to remember someone saying that they're not easy to magnetise but I might be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of close combat id argue that it's the area where we've got the biggest improvement. Banshees, spears and scorpions are up with the best from pretty any codex. They are expensive and fragile but they hit hard with some decent trickery too. Some of the phoenix lords are absolute beatsticks now too. The list Brad Chester got to the art of war RTT livestream tournament made good use of banshees scorps, karandras and Jain zar.

There is a lot of torque due to the long prism, but they are not that hard to magnetize. Just need the right supplies.

 Nevelon wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
I'm looking for an opinion from the seer council . How much is too much Fire Prisms ? I really like the unit but investing into heavy support vehicles always feels like a gamble to me, even if I can magnetize them to double duty as Night Spinners.

The main issue I see with prisms is that the strat requires the tanks to be within 12" and visible to each other. Judicious use of fire and fade or vectored engines can lessen the problem but, depending on the terrain, it could be quite tricky to set this up since you want to keep behind cover with both tanks wherever possible. If you can magnetise them you'll be very happy since spinners are great and prisms are good with the caveats I mentioned. I seem to remember someone saying that they're not easy to magnetise but I might be wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the subject of close combat id argue that it's the area where we've got the biggest improvement. Banshees, spears and scorpions are up with the best from pretty any codex. They are expensive and fragile but they hit hard with some decent trickery too. Some of the phoenix lords are absolute beatsticks now too. The list Brad Chester got to the art of war RTT livestream tournament made good use of banshees scorps, karandras and Jain zar.

There is a lot of torque due to the long prism, but they are not that hard to magnetize. Just need the right supplies.

Thanks for the info !

wuestenfux wrote:
Troop tax is an issue if you field a battalion.
Rangers can occupy the backfield and perform actions.
20 Guardians can be a shock-and-awe unit but at smaller tables its not easy to find a spot for deep-striking them.

Is it still an issue? I got the sense Rangers have improved and Guardian's weapon options as well. I don't think 2x5 Rangers and 20 Guardians is that much an issue as just a choice.

Crafter91 wrote:The auto-wound within 9" on Fire Dragons is disgustingly good though, I must admit. Especially if you can get guide on them.

What is the combo that grants auto-wound? I heard Autuarch but I haven't had the time to dive in yet with a deep read.

popisdead wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
Troop tax is an issue if you field a battalion.
Rangers can occupy the backfield and perform actions.
20 Guardians can be a shock-and-awe unit but at smaller tables its not easy to find a spot for deep-striking them.

Is it still an issue? I got the sense Rangers have improved and Guardian's weapon options as well. I don't think 2x5 Rangers and 20 Guardians is that much an issue as just a choice.

Crafter91 wrote:The auto-wound within 9" on Fire Dragons is disgustingly good though, I must admit. Especially if you can get guide on them.

What is the combo that grants auto-wound? I heard Autuarch but I haven't had the time to dive in yet with a deep read.

Per the leaks it was an exarch power.

Yeah it's a 25 PT upgrade, the exarch gets the normal exarch upgrade plus the auto wound ability. Not going to happen from deepstrike but it's strong.

Very useful when they jump out of a Wave Serpent

I think the webway fire dragons are tempting because they are a nice deterrent. It's good to make your opponent wary of charging forward with something powerful because you're threatening with them in the webway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a powerful counter threat is going to be very important for craftworlds since our medium to long range shooting is very potent but can be shut down like in the drukhari match earlier in the thread.

 kingheff wrote:
I think the webway fire dragons are tempting because they are a nice deterrent. It's good to make your opponent wary of charging forward with something powerful because you're threatening with them in the webway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a powerful counter threat is going to be very important for craftworlds since our medium to long range shooting is very potent but can be shut down like in the drukhari match earlier in the thread.

I think a melee threat is a stronger deterent in the webway.

Firedragons remain having the problem of just 5 shots. Even if they all get to hit and wound, most of the game is taking 2.5, or at best, 3 of those thanks to invuls.

They are particularly bad into tau where the drones will eat it and laugh.

So ive been looking through the codex. Is it me or do we not get a supreme commander?

Also. Are wraithseers -1d?

 Argive wrote:
So ive been looking through the codex. Is it me or do we not get a supreme commander?

Also. Are wraithseers -1d?

We don't have Primarchs, so no Supreme Commander for us, lol.
And I'm sure Wraithseers will get -1d once FW stuff gets updated, but not until then.

-

D-cannons are almost ok because of 24" range, but are still a bit too good. I dont think they should have Dd6+2. Makes them over the top.

Wraithseers currently have ignore AP-1 which will likely get updated to -1D. I'm a bit worried they'll get moved to Elite like Wraith Lords though, that slot is already packed for me.

stratigo wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I think the webway fire dragons are tempting because they are a nice deterrent. It's good to make your opponent wary of charging forward with something powerful because you're threatening with them in the webway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a powerful counter threat is going to be very important for craftworlds since our medium to long range shooting is very potent but can be shut down like in the drukhari match earlier in the thread.

I think a melee threat is a stronger deterent in the webway.

Firedragons remain having the problem of just 5 shots. Even if they all get to hit and wound, most of the game is taking 2.5, or at best, 3 of those thanks to invuls.

They are particularly bad into tau where the drones will eat it and laugh.

Fire dragons do have that weakness but traits like Biel tan or an autarch will help. According to mathhammer a squad of six with no support shooting a T7 3+ 5++ vehicle or monster does 11.4 damage, 17.1 if they lack the invulnerable. Pretty respectable for a 108 PT unit. They are a trading piece since they will almost certainly not survive until the next round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
So ive been looking through the codex. Is it me or do we not get a supreme commander?

Also. Are wraithseers -1d?

If only we had some kind of Living embodiment of our God of war...

 kingheff wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I think the webway fire dragons are tempting because they are a nice deterrent. It's good to make your opponent wary of charging forward with something powerful because you're threatening with them in the webway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a powerful counter threat is going to be very important for craftworlds since our medium to long range shooting is very potent but can be shut down like in the drukhari match earlier in the thread.

I think a melee threat is a stronger deterent in the webway.

Firedragons remain having the problem of just 5 shots. Even if they all get to hit and wound, most of the game is taking 2.5, or at best, 3 of those thanks to invuls.

They are particularly bad into tau where the drones will eat it and laugh.

Fire dragons do have that weakness but traits like Biel tan or an autarch will help. According to mathhammer a squad of six with no support shooting a T7 3+ 5++ vehicle or monster does 11.4 damage, 17.1 if they lack the invulnerable. Pretty respectable for a 108 PT unit. They are a trading piece since they will almost certainly not survive until the next round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:
So ive been looking through the codex. Is it me or do we not get a supreme commander?

Also. Are wraithseers -1d?

If only we had some kind of Living embodiment of our God of war...

The issue being that's not a super common profile in competitive. You're mostly shooting toughness 5/6 with a 4 plus invul and 4/5 wounds. And the guns just don't cut it into the things you really need to shoot at to win games (Eg, crisis suits and vertus bikers).

I think shuriken cannons plus jinx are probably our best bets against those targets. They're not perfect against them but unfortunately not much is, hence why they're such a problem in the meta.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dragons popping out of falcons can do good work against devilfish allowing us to get to the squishy contents though, so they can do stuff against T'au.

 kingheff wrote:
I think shuriken cannons plus jinx are probably our best bets against those targets. They're not perfect against them but unfortunately not much is, hence why they're such a problem in the meta.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dragons popping out of falcons can do good work against devilfish allowing us to get to the squishy contents though, so they can do stuff against T'au.

Definitely finding that Hail of Doom shuriken spam is a great tool against T5/6 with auto wounds but if you aren't running Hail then Jinx is still a really solid power to force invul saves. This book definitely feels like it needs to spam shots and force unsaved wounds versus high quality shots.

I dropped my Fire Dragons in a Falcon as I believe them to be a trap, they don't get in half range when they disembark unless you bring a fire pike for the Exarch. They're a situational tool that I think will be sorted out pretty quickly as people learn to screen against a first turn deepstrike to force later reinforcements which I already feel has happened over the course of the games I've played. They either make their points back or whiff quite heavily if the dice don't go your way but in saying that, I tend to save my Fate Dice specifically for them.

I think falcons will require some fitness to use most effectively against savvy opponents. They are almost like a free phantasm. I see them working well if they can find safe places to land turn one and setting up either an alpha strike or a beta strike by keeping something like dragons or banshees safe for use in turn two or three. They can either land in midfield or plugging vacated gaps in the back line vacated by units moving out.

Yeah it isn't the Falcon I have a problem with, it's the contents! I've switched to taking scorpions as they have a much more reliable damage output over Fire Dragons and are cheaper too.

Depending on the terrain set up, the Falcon DS is very much avoidable by your opponent. Especially if you get turn one because all it takes is for them to hide behind ruins etc and you can;t draw LOS to anything worthwhile.

That being said, it's a nice way to guarantee that your falcon and a small unit aren't being shot at if you don't win the turn one roll-off.

I can see this being just as useful from a tactical perspective of landing it on a midfield objective and then jumping out with some obsec troops.

Somebody asked about Fire Dragons - the auto wound is an exarch ability and it affects the whole unit (I expect it will get nerfed to just be the exarch). It is however only on units within 9", so on the turn you arrive from DS, you can't possibly benefit from it because you have to arrive outside of 9".

 Argive wrote:
So ive been looking through the codex. Is it me or do we not get a supreme commander?

Also. Are wraithseers -1d?

It's a biel-tan warlord trait for Eldar.

Should be a generic WT for all armies really, but hey ho.

I modified my initial list that both had scorpions and firedragons and a much bigger dam output to focus more on mobility and scoring. So I ran this yesterday and completely dominated the table




I had 6 avengers with obsec in each falcon. Cheaper, super annoying and good for snatching objectives. Between bladestorm and an auto six for battle focus I found that they can be equally good for clearing objectives, grabbing objectives or delivering a hi intensity burst of dam and then getting out of the way.

the build is optimized for strands and rolls 7d, keeps 5 while rerooling 2. Anyone who says this mechanic is so-so hasn't really felt it in game, id say. It is bonkers. with Ulthwe it grants so much defense as all your stuff has 6++. an example: I threw my wave serpent up the field t1 as I had rolled into 3 auto saves with strands. the ten banshees inside were relatively safe and the next turn I could dominate that flank with their advance and charge threat.

i was afraid the list would lack antitank as I only have like 5-6 high str d3+3 attacks and no super mandiblasters to MW them to death, but it was no problem at all.

Baharatoh was amazing, the warp spiders and hawks too. Felt I had tools for everything. Will of Asyryan is so good with the morale thing too. I couldn't decide what to put on the hawks, though, maybe the cancel actions one?

either way, I got 14 on engage and maxed out RnD and got 13 on wrath of khaine no problem. Last game I had a hard time getting the melee part of WoK, but baharoth was a perfect addition for mopping up remaining marines and similar stuff each turn (he counts an aspect warrior so I presume thats legal). That said, 6spears are amazing for this too, as they function well in both phases.

the banshees underperformed in my last game and I was really torn on whether to take them over the scorpions. I went for banshees (as I wanted mobility and synergy with the wave serpent and strands to keep it alive) and did everything possible to avoid armor of russ as it caused trouble for them last time. they charged 2 outriders and ended up in one of those situations where space wolves kan just heroically into everything. the girls had to tag Ragnar to take away his fight first, and then when they killed him, he fought on death with the strat and he murdered 4 (the mirrosword exarch took out the two doomed bikes on her own). then a wulfen dread that had heroically'ed 6 with the strat took out a few more. Next turn the survivors actually killed the dread too. so he spent 3 cp and lost 2 outriders, Ragnar and the dread.

I thought I would miss the two hardhitters from my first game (scorps, dragons) but honestly, I didnt. This spacewolf list ran 3 dreadnaughts and a war suit. I didn't get the war suit but managed to kill the deads. maybe vs tougher armor ill miss a stronger output. this is still work in progress but im vey happy so far.