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On a superficial level, time/energy. However, I have leisure time/energy I could be investing into other GW games but am investing in tabletop offerings from other companies instead. So the real question becomes, why am I playing those instead of other GW games? That's a bit more straightforward.

-Rules & balance quality. I stopped playing 40k because it was no longer fun for me. If it was just the rules or just the balance/power creep I could manage but both is too much. When that eventually changes, time (and accordingly, money) I currently put elsewhere will go back to 40k.

-Lack of community. I would love to try LotR, I have a fully painted Blood Bowl team ready to go, but there is no local community for those things.

-Price. I do still like 40k enough to play a game once in a while, and there are several GW games that I similarly have enough interest to play here and there. But the prices are too high for me to justify if I'm not playing several times a month.

Slipspace wrote:
It looks like there's now no room in their line-up for a simple one-and-done release.

When GW were working with FFG they made some excellent board games that are still well regarded today. I'm convinced GW terminated the partnership because FFG was making better games than GW and was worried it would pull people away from 40k. Forbidden Stars even has scaled down 40k and BFG models, plays in a fraction of the time of 40k and is a grander scale. It was only just recently knocked out of the top 100 board games on BoardGameGeek, it would probably still be there if it wasn't so hard to find.

Before anything starts, the rules, meta, need to play with painted stuff etc it is the cost. Games kill team and necromunda cost a LOT more then other games. They are only considered cheap, if you play or played AoS or w40k. When someone sees a 499 or 400zl box for kill team, and a 100 something box for settlers of catan, then the whole lore is cool, models are cool etc aspect doesn't even start to kick in. People can play , and most important buy, multiple games for the cost of getting in to a side GW game.

For stuff like kill team, with people that already play w40k, it is often stuff like not having a legal army even when you have 2000pts of w40k, not wanting to learn a different rule set, additional cost. Bonus stuff in the boxs, being nice if you play at home AND have no terrain, making the boxs not so good, if play at store or have a ton of terrain at home.

I got into Titanicus but haven't played in years, mainly due to the relative difficulty getting a game (even in London), but also in my eyes the product output has stalled a little. The FW knights are prohibitively expensive and the rules bloat is getting a little out of hand.

Honestly not interested in Necromunda. I was very much put off by Shadow War and had some pretty crappy games that just ruined my interest in that sort of game alltogether. That, and it seems to be getting a bit of bloat as well.

Was very interested in getting into HH, now it's more accessible in plastic I might give it a go if it picks up traction somewhat.

I'm probably in the "flakiness" camp - due in part to being flaky. The idea you wouldn't find games is the big one.

If a friend told me they'd bought Necromunda, had everything necessary to play, and all I need is one of the gang boxes - then I'd buy it and we'd get some games in. Even if I had my doubts it would be any good. That's why I bought a blood bowl team last year.

But I'd never be the guy to walk around the FLGS going "hey, hey, wanna play some Necromunda, go on". That's just not me.

And if getting started starts being something bigger than a box then concerns about cost, time etc start kicking in.

Gotta say, I play more warhammer underworlds than I do any other gw game.

Don't often have the time or space to play 40k or aos, but I can play three games of underworlds in less than an hour, and it's super easy to transport.

Also, the game is fairly well balanced. I can play any of the 30+ warbands, and I feel I can have a shot at winning any game. Just some warbands have a steeper learning curve than others.

I think the problem with underworlds is that if someone didn't start with first seson and didn't buy all the warbands as they were released it is a bit hard to build some of the decks in an optimal way. Specialy when you starting the idea that you need cards from multiple expensions to play is a bit daunting.

Karol wrote:
I think the problem with underworlds is that if someone didn't start with first seson and didn't buy all the warbands as they were released it is a bit hard to build some of the decks in an optimal way. Specialy when you starting the idea that you need cards from multiple expensions to play is a bit daunting.

Isn't that why they introduced the Restricted Cards List and separate card packs?

I play Blood Bowl and Necromunda, very casually. I don't branch out to AoS since the background is weak, the mini line is uninspiring and the game system seems broken. With 40k the minis and background are great, but the rules bloat is insane. Both AoS and 40k are also too expensive to get into.

Hours Heresy possibly fixes a lot of issues, but I'd need to see something other than Marines for it, Xenos factions would be amazing.

My most likely next big GW game is WH Old World, but I'll be using non-GW minis.

I like the idea of Kill Team and Necromunda, but I can't bring myself to buy the extra books and learn the new rules and all that. Plus, my group is pretty much 40k only at the moment.

I have plenty of stuff laying around for KT and 'Munda should we ever decide we're going to do it, like my various Ork Kommandos or my not-quite-renegade Guardsmen.


But when Old World arrives I'll be dusting off the old Tomb Kings for sure.

The price. That is the number 1 problem, and it is always the number 1 problem with GW products.

I wonder if GW made a game that had an entry and exit cost around 100-200$, with a simple and enjoyable rule set which wouldn't imply it having a balance or in depth one. Would such a game be popular for GW wanting to run it for more then a single release.
If they lets say made a horus heresy board game or a game about w40k space ships. It could maybe be fun. But then again, it may as well just die on day one with no one wanting to play it.

Karol wrote:
I wonder if GW made a game that had an entry and exit cost around 100-200$, with a simple and enjoyable rule set which wouldn't imply it having a balance or in depth one. Would such a game be popular for GW wanting to run it for more then a single release.
If they lets say made a horus heresy board game or a game about w40k space ships. It could maybe be fun. But then again, it may as well just die on day one with no one wanting to play it.

I thought kill team would be a box that was about £40-£50 with rules templates books etc and then a more expensive one with minis. Besides that new kill trams would be released just as boxed units and you could bring minis from 40K into the game to make your own kill team. I would have bought that.

Karol wrote:
I wonder if GW made a game that had an entry and exit cost around 100-200$, with a simple and enjoyable rule set which wouldn't imply it having a balance or in depth one. Would such a game be popular for GW wanting to run it for more then a single release.
If they lets say made a horus heresy board game or a game about w40k space ships. It could maybe be fun. But then again, it may as well just die on day one with no one wanting to play it.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/63543/horus-heresy

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/175155/forbidden-stars

Ah. Well assuming I never heard about those, the question anwsered itself.
By the way did GW ever make a 15mm scale game, because XVIIth century historicals of that scale are very popular around here. I know there is titanicus, but it has no infantry in it, just the big walkers and knights. W40k would probably not fit the scale, but AoS could be really nice with all of its medivel/fantasy inspired units.

Not specifically 15mm but they have done games at a dramatically smaller model size.

Warmaster was a 10-12mm game set in the warhammer fantasy world. And it's Ancients spin offs was a historical bent.

Epic 40k or epic armageddon were 6mm games in the 40k setting.

GW made Epic in 6mm, but their last 15mm game was Laserburn, written by Bryan Ansell in 1980.

They cast and sold 15mm minis for the Traveller RPG, but again that was in the early 1980s, before 40k. Those figures are now sold by RAFM in Canada.

Vanguard makes 15mm not-Marines, Guard and Orks. There is also a very active 15mm community for 40k on Facebook - they 3D print all the vehicles.

You're right - 15mm is very popular for Sci-fi gaming (also historical gaming), as its the scale that combined-arms forces of infantry, walkers, vehicles and support aircraft really start to work well on a 6x4 table.

There are huge ranges of 15mm figures and vehicles, figures start around £0.50 each, vehicles are £4-10 (some big ones cost as much as a Land Raider).

You can paint your force in a day, and a 40k-sized army might cost £50 in total. The low cost of figures and relative ease of making them means that the range of choices is vast.

Shout-out to GZG, Khurasan Miniatures and Rebel minis for Sci-fi 15mm ranges.

Some 15mm rulsets are very highly regarded - Stargrunt II does infantry combat well, Gruntz has rules for building any vehicle or troop you want, Tomorrow's War has a good reaction system.

Generally its the poor quality of the rules that puts me off branching out into other GW games. There was a heyday when GW seemed to produce quality games at quite the frenetic rate. I suspect that this was because, Originally, GW was a games company run by games nerds, for games nerds. Some of the stuff produced during the late 80's and 90's was bonkers crazy, but there were more hits than misses.
GW solidified its position in the market by having a store in pretty much every town and city in the UK, and having games that filled every niche, Skirmish, Company scale, Army scale, Space combat, naval combat, plus board games that covered an entire theater.
Nowadays, with the birth of the Interweb, which GW is starting to begrudgingly acknowledge exists, Players can look at whats available on the market, and find games that they like the look of, and try them out. Whether a game is OOP or not is becoming irrelevant because everything can be found on the internet, and 3D printing lets you produce the minis you want, or let someone else do the printing for you. The only limits to what you can play, are what you want to play.

As to the OP, For skirmish i like Infinity, I still play Epic Space Marine from the 90's. I have a Chaos fleet for Battlefleet Gothic. I use my 40k Minis to play Firefight which I find to be much more engaging than 40k. I sometimes play WFB 5th Ed, or proxy my skaven into Kings of War.

Essentially, you can use whatever minis you want, to play whatever games you want, whether they are OOP or not, so long as you have friends you can play against. I'm lucky that i've got a group of friends who have been playing together for 25 years, so we can play anything, and we can try anything.

What stops me playing GW games more frequently, despite the dearth of players, is their games are well, IMO, bad games. Bad game design, poor balance, janky rules. crazy power creep. If i do play 40k, I prefer to play RT rules.

i don't look into GW's other games because i lost faith in the company. I'd rather try games from other companies that end up being cheaper and better than 40k at least.

(there probably is some good GW games but 40k really has soured my opinion of them)

Karol wrote:
Ah. Well assuming I never heard about those, the question anwsered itself.
By the way did GW ever make a 15mm scale game, because XVIIth century historicals of that scale are very popular around here. I know there is titanicus, but it has no infantry in it, just the big walkers and knights. W40k would probably not fit the scale, but AoS could be really nice with all of its medivel/fantasy inspired units.

As I said earlier you never heard of them because GW axed their partnership with Fantasy Flight Games, the company that developed and produced them, despite almost every game made by that partnership getting good reviews and being popular in the board game community. Forbidden Stars was in the aggregate Top 100 board games of all time up until recently and Chaos In The Old World is still in the top 200. Bloodbowl Team Manager also gets a lot of praise and is still sought after.

They quit the collaboration quite soon after Forbidden Stars was released before it could get any expansions (and judging from the box size they were planning on putting out all the factions eventually) and as I previously said, I think they were threatened by FFG making mechanically better games than GW.

There is now no chance of them being released again unless GW approaches FFG because GW own the IP and FFG owns the game designs. The designer of Forbidden Stars has been teasing people with a retheme of the game for a while now though so it'll be interesting to see how that works out.

Man, that is really sad. It sounds like the whole star wars/star trek thing, where the quality and fun from a setting gets sacrificed to get an iron grip on the IP, by new owners.

Lack of painting time is the main reason for me not doing anything.

Karol wrote:
I think the problem with underworlds is that if someone didn't start with first seson and didn't buy all the warbands as they were released it is a bit hard to build some of the decks in an optimal way. Specialy when you starting the idea that you need cards from multiple expensions to play is a bit daunting.

Not really, as the card pool is only the latest two seasons, plus you can play rivals, which is very beginner friendly (and fun). I own probably only half the warbands, and I do not believe that has been a detriment at all to my playing. If you just start with the latest season, you can do very well in the game, and don't really need anything older at all. My binders of season 1-4 cards are just collecting dust for the most part, as I find the current warbands a lot more interesting, and the older cards are not valid for championship.

 jaredb wrote:

Karol wrote:
I think the problem with underworlds is that if someone didn't start with first seson and didn't buy all the warbands as they were released it is a bit hard to build some of the decks in an optimal way. Specialy when you starting the idea that you need cards from multiple expensions to play is a bit daunting.

Not really, as the card pool is only the latest two seasons, plus you can play rivals, which is very beginner friendly (and fun). I own probably only half the warbands, and I do not believe that has been a detriment at all to my playing. If you just start with the latest season, you can do very well in the game, and don't really need anything older at all. My binders of season 1-4 cards are just collecting dust for the most part, as I find the current warbands a lot more interesting, and the older cards are not valid for championship.

A friend of mine quit Underworlds because there was just too many card to keep up with. He was really into it as well and has several trophies from winning tournaments.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ah. Well assuming I never heard about those, the question anwsered itself.
By the way did GW ever make a 15mm scale game, because XVIIth century historicals of that scale are very popular around here. I know there is titanicus, but it has no infantry in it, just the big walkers and knights. W40k would probably not fit the scale, but AoS could be really nice with all of its medivel/fantasy inspired units.

As I said earlier you never heard of them because GW axed their partnership with Fantasy Flight Games, the company that developed and produced them, despite almost every game made by that partnership getting good reviews and being popular in the board game community. Forbidden Stars was in the aggregate Top 100 board games of all time up until recently and Chaos In The Old World is still in the top 200. Bloodbowl Team Manager also gets a lot of praise and is still sought after.

They quit the collaboration quite soon after Forbidden Stars was released before it could get any expansions (and judging from the box size they were planning on putting out all the factions eventually) and as I previously said, I think they were threatened by FFG making mechanically better games than GW.

There is now no chance of them being released again unless GW approaches FFG because GW own the IP and FFG owns the game designs. The designer of Forbidden Stars has been teasing people with a retheme of the game for a while now though so it'll be interesting to see how that works out.

That's a commonly accepted speculation, but one I believe is entirely false. If it were even remotely true GW would have cut-n-run over Star Wars: X-wing and Armada.

The reality is; FFG is a bunch of toss pots whoring out whatever IP they can get the rights to. FFG is notorious for obtaining the rights to an IP, milking it, and then abandoning the game and its fans entirely once the IP loses popularity or the spotlight moves to something else. FFG's games are subjectively mediocre at best; relying on an IP fan bias to gain players.

I believe GW cut ties with FFG because... 1. FFG's abysmal reputation and 2. FFG was the subject of an acquisition by Asmodee who's underlying agenda was to position themselves to sell to the larger Embracer Group. In fact Asmodee gutted FFG after the take over because of how terrible they are. Most of the FFG staff were let go. FFG is an iconic example of the rise and hard fall of a game company.

On topic...

Primarily, time. W40K is a massive time investment for me because of how deeply I am invested into it.

 jaredb wrote:

Karol wrote:
I think the problem with underworlds is that if someone didn't start with first seson and didn't buy all the warbands as they were released it is a bit hard to build some of the decks in an optimal way. Specialy when you starting the idea that you need cards from multiple expensions to play is a bit daunting.

Not really, as the card pool is only the latest two seasons, plus you can play rivals, which is very beginner friendly (and fun). I own probably only half the warbands, and I do not believe that has been a detriment at all to my playing. If you just start with the latest season, you can do very well in the game, and don't really need anything older at all. My binders of season 1-4 cards are just collecting dust for the most part, as I find the current warbands a lot more interesting, and the older cards are not valid for championship.

See that is the problem. You say you only have "half" the warbands and can easily play. And a lot of people would want to play one warband. When you have to rebuy multiple warbands each seson, it feels too much like regular w40k or AoS.

I got into board games a while back thanks to a local board game cafe and they just tend to be better games than GW stuff: easier to play, better experiences, stuff my partner would be willing to play, and so on.

For me, the difference between Necromunda and Kill Team is quite stark, especially at the moment, this being the reason I picked up one and not the other.

For Kill Team, were it it's own thing that I would probably never play much and just wanted the 40k models for, yeah I'd probably pass. However, I play most of the armies in the game, so the models are almost always useful to some degree, and the terrain is nice enough. Doubling into 40k, which I play more, really helps here as even if I'm not playing Kill Team a lot, I can still use everything I paid for. In addition, so long as you're playing relatively casually, I think the game is a lot more balanced than 40k and I find there are a lot of interesting tactical decisions to make. Each new set comes with 9 custom missions, most of which feel unique and aren't just "go sit on x objectives for the longest time". Lastly, you can knock out a game in 45min or so once you've got the hang of it, which with 3 kids is sometimes all I've got time for in an evening. So, with all that, despite the price point, I think Kill Team is quite worth it.

Now compare the cost of that with the cost of the Necromunda kit that just came out. I was super stoked for Ash Wastes when I saw the models and finally thought I might take the plunge, both sides looked really cool... but then I saw the price point. You get about as many units and terrain as you do for Kill Team, but at nearly double the price! Or compare it to the new HH box set at the exact same price. The amount you get in that set is a firesale by comparison. Already being into one skirmish game, there's no incentive for me to get into a second, especially at that price. On top of all that, you can't even directly use them in 40k like KT or, the other comparison HH can. Just feels like you're paying way more for way less.

Money, Space, Time. And being a flake.

To many times I've gotten over the price to get into a GW game/faction, spent the time assembling and painting only to find out after a couple of games it's not as good as I thought it was going to be. I'd dump the product, but now it's got time and money involved in it, so it's taking up space until I find good use for it - and I'll be damned if I let myself get suckered into doing the same thing again.

Between garbage pricing and knowing they'd Squat any system that isn't 40K proper without losing a second's sleep I have no motivation to get anything GW current.


I'm sticking with Classichammer WFB and possibly chasing down some BFG. I have 40K stuff and do infrequently play 3rd Ed. but haven't been motivated to pick up another army for that system in a VERY long time.