Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Jarms48 wrote:
I don't think they're dead. GW is just bad at managing all their rules. They probably didn't even realise they have no valid rules now.

This is probably sadder than neglect honestly, there rules so mismanaged that they really don’t have a clue what’s going on.

They probably think there isn’t a rush since, only a small fraction of players run inquisition

Dudeface wrote:
The assassins rules expire in June, there's a slew of imperial hangers on out in rogue traders, arms men, arbites coming up etc. It would be easy to see a imperial agents book sometime soon.

Codex Imperial Agents is a traditional way to end an edition after all.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The assassins rules expire in June, there's a slew of imperial hangers on out in rogue traders, arms men, arbites coming up etc. It would be easy to see a imperial agents book sometime soon.

Codex Imperial Agents is a traditional way to end an edition after all.

Which is a shame, as I love the concept.

The Imperium has so many little scraps of factions that are cool and flavorful, but really shouldn’t be a full fledged army with a codex. Having them collected into a codex is a good way to keep the rules available, but not a silly stand alone book for 1-3 units. WD is not a bad option, but you run into issues with access when it’s out of print. Ideally the rules would be free PDFs, but GW is too hooked on the sale of books to step away from that model.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just attach roll them into the DW, the Sisters, or the GK, depending on Ordo. Xenos, Hereticus, Diabolis. Done.

Which is where we were in 3rd edition. Everything comes back eventually.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just attach roll them into the DW, the Sisters, or the GK, depending on Ordo. Xenos, Hereticus, Diabolis. Done.

Which is where we were in 3rd edition. Everything comes back eventually.

Not sure why Fezzik is inventing an Ordo there, though - Malleus is the Ordo that deals with Chaos, not Diabolis.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just attach roll them into the DW, the Sisters, or the GK, depending on Ordo. Xenos, Hereticus, Diabolis. Done.

Which is where we were in 3rd edition. Everything comes back eventually.

Not sure why Fezzik is inventing an Ordo there, though - Malleus is the Ordo that deals with Chaos, not Diabolis.

Sorry, forgot the name and gave it a try.

It was a good try. I mean, Hereticis for Heretics, Xenos for Aliens and Malleus... for Hammers?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a good try. I mean, Hereticis for Heretics, Xenos for Aliens and Malleus... for Hammers?

AHEM!

The existence of Daemons is a closely guarded secret and the existence of Daemon Hunters even more so. So the Holy Ordo conceals its very existence with its name. Even among the few who know of the existence of the Ordo Malleus they only know of it as an Ordo that polices the Inquisition itself from within. It's true role is a secret hidden within an enigma.

And yes. This is canon.

Given how popular Inquisition is amongst fans of the background, it is truly baffling that they continue to undersupport it.

I swear I thought I just listened to a Cain Audiobook where one of the rogue Inquisitors that has duped the Sisters on the planet being attacked by Nids, defined himself as a member of that Ordo. That's where I was thinking when I said it. I've completely forgotten the name of the Inquisitor, but he's evil, and in a sidebar conversation with either Amberly or Jurgen, Malleus pops up. I have to go back and listen now. Again, I admit fault, but I want to actually verify what I heard.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a good try. I mean, Hereticis for Heretics, Xenos for Aliens and Malleus... for Hammers?

Hey, when you're a hammer...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a good try. I mean, Hereticis for Heretics, Xenos for Aliens and Malleus... for Hammers?

Sorry I can resist.

Named after the historical book Malleus Maleifacrum, or Hammer of Witches. Well in the public domain these days, as is Matthew Hopkins’ literary drivel. Both worth a read if you fancy laughing at it ignorance.

One can only hope they get squatted.

Revised and released as a whole new invigorated line.

But maybe not wait 25 years this time...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a good try. I mean, Hereticis for Heretics, Xenos for Aliens and Malleus... for Hammers?

Sorry I can resist.

Named after the historical book Malleus Maleifacrum, or Hammer of Witches. Well in the public domain these days, as is Matthew Hopkins’ literary drivel. Both worth a read if you fancy laughing at it ignorance.

Which is of course why the Ordo Malleus has nothing to do with witches, since that's the Ordo Hereticus.

Inquisition never should have been a stand alone faction to begin with.
It would be like trying to build a whole faction out of assassins.

Rogue traders makes more sense as a stand alone faction to me.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
Inquisition never should have been a stand alone faction to begin with.
It would be like trying to build a whole faction out of assassins.

Rogue traders makes more sense as a stand alone faction to me.

Inquisition forces exist in sizes that the table of 40k provides, and people want to be able to play cohesive and usable forces that replicate that.
Often the biggest issue is even attaching them to a force is more difficult and rules intense for what they can provide the game, GW should work out what they want to do with them and work towards making it work.
Even if it’s just a book that gives them a special IG regiment force, that lets them bring in a unit of DW marines, grey knights or sisters easy and without weird or silly hoops that ad little to the game.
That’s really what I think a lot of people would be happy with.
And a special rule that lets them tag along with those forces as well in a natural way.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
Inquisition never should have been a stand alone faction to begin with.

Why?

johnpjones1775 wrote:
It would be like trying to build a whole faction out of assassins.

Except it's not. Clearly. Demonstrably so.

It would be really cool to have a "Codex: all the random small factions" tbh. There are a few small factions introduced with kill team and necromunda that could go in there too and just add the faction key word to it. And just think GW can make a ton of money selling all players a book that each person only needs one or two sheets from......(well except the Protagonists)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:
Inquisition never should have been a stand alone faction to begin with.

Why?

johnpjones1775 wrote:
It would be like trying to build a whole faction out of assassins.

Except it's not. Clearly. Demonstrably so.

Because they are a Secret Police that commandeer local resources, not a garrison force. They should have a Data sheet or two designed for working with various variations of IMPERIUM forces. I mean a few sheets tailored for Guard synergy, a few for Marines/Deathwatch and/or Sisters Such that when they're the Warlord/HQ these tactics/doctrines/whatever apply to represent their leadership as opposed to the home faction leaders.

Breton wrote:
Because they are a Secret Police that commandeer local resources, not a garrison force.

Not they're not. And yes they are. And sometimes they are. And sometimes they're not..

The Inquisition are not centralised. There is no set way to be an Inquisitor. Some of them are lone investigators, working in secret, saving worlds without anyone ever knowing they are there. Others are firebrand zealots that demand the resources of entire sectors to meet their goals, leading personal armies into battle after battle.

There is every reason to have Inquisition on the field of battle, leading armies.

If they "shouldn't" be doing that, then Marines armies should be tiny and Custodes shouldn't be something you can take at all. But they are, and we can, so why would Inquisitors be any different?

There's dozens of books where Inquisitors lead armies ranging from a few hundred to a many thousands.

They have a unique role different from IG officers squinting at maps or SM commanders waving oversized swords and screaming.

And they're fun!

I think the whole idea of how Inquisitors start as Puritans who would never touch Chaos and end up as Radicals with their own pet demons and howling rune swords is actually brilliant and would love to see a way to simulate it on the table.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Breton wrote:
Because they are a Secret Police that commandeer local resources, not a garrison force.

Not they're not. And yes they are. And sometimes they are. And sometimes they're not..

The Inquisition are not centralised. There is no set way to be an Inquisitor. Some of them are lone investigators, working in secret, saving worlds without anyone ever knowing they are there. Others are firebrand zealots that demand the resources of entire sectors to meet their goals, leading personal armies into battle after battle.

There is every reason to have Inquisition on the field of battle, leading armies.

You just made the same point I did to disagree with my conclusion. "Demanding the resources of entire sectors" Leading armies. They should be a partial list that slots into other armies as replacements for the leadership/keynote units that then cause those base units to play differently.

Breton wrote:

You just made the same point I did to disagree with my conclusion. "Demanding the resources of entire sectors" Leading armies. They should be a partial list that slots into other armies as replacements for the leadership/keynote units that then cause those base units to play differently.

The issue here is that the 500-3k points that we see on a battlefield often represent a slice of the "army" - so if a command section of Inquisition is coordinating action between 2 companies of one chapter, one of another, two regiments, three missions and a preceptory, perhaps the models that we see in some of the of the battles fought are JUST the Inquisitorial slice of the combined force.

This is especially important given that 9th ed 40k was designed to be a game where 500 point battles are just as important as 2k battles. A 25-50 PL Inquisition Crusade is a pretty cool little narrative force; it needs a dex to support it. When it commandeers other Imperial forces, they should be able to join as additional detachments if that's how the player wants it done, or the Inquisition forces should be able to join as Agents if that's what the player wants. Currently, neither of these options work as well as they should- the Inquisition list isn't good enough as is to build a decent detachment due to a lack of troops and transports; furthermore an Inquisition detachment breaks the purity rules of allied detachments. It's possible for a single Inquisitor to join as an Agent without breaking purity, but said Inquisitor can't bring any other Ordo units along when they join this way.

Breton wrote:
You just made the same point I did to disagree with my conclusion.

No, because that's not all they do. You're attempting to put the Inquisition into a single box, which is a fool's errand, and with that box say that they shouldn't be their own faction.

I'm saying that they're far more expansive than you're giving them credit for, and there's no reason they couldn't lead their own faction. I mean, that's what the Chambers Militant are for...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Breton wrote:
You just made the same point I did to disagree with my conclusion.

No, because that's not all they do. You're attempting to put the Inquisition into a single box, which is a fool's errand, and with that box say that they shouldn't be their own faction.

I'm saying that they're far more expansive than you're giving them credit for, and there's no reason they couldn't lead their own faction. I mean, that's what the Chambers Militant are for...

As a problem that is easily solvable, nothing prevents us having several tiers or ranks of Inquisitor represented by different rules on the tabletop, you can easily have something like an itinerant/undercover/travelling inquisitor with a retinue as a choice somewhere between support character, elite squad or killteam, and something like inquisitor militant / lord inquisitor as a figurehead or commander of a larger force. If you want to you can work stuff like Outcasts, Radicals, Puritans and so on into it, with specific options locking out others and so on, no Demonhosts if you have Grey Knights etc. etc.

PenitentJake wrote:
; it needs a dex to support it. When it commandeers other Imperial forces, they should be able to join as additional detachments if that's how the player wants it done, or the Inquisition forces should be able to join as Agents if that's what the player wants. Currently, neither of these options work as well as they should- the Inquisition list isn't good enough as is to build a decent detachment due to a lack of troops and transports; furthermore an Inquisition detachment breaks the purity rules of allied detachments. It's possible for a single Inquisitor to join as an Agent without breaking purity, but said Inquisitor can't bring any other Ordo units along when they join this way.

Yes, it does need a Dex, but not a full Dex. They don't need to have their own big lumbering walkers, heavy weapons infantry, Tanks, Transports, and so on. It should have HQ's, Elite characters, potentially a smattering of squads that would then dovetail/modify existing squads from other dexes. It should work as either an Inquisition led force with a couple-few HQ's, and Elites then a bunch of Squads from X-Watch, or other chapters/Regiments, or an Inquisition supplemented force of a Marine chapter or Guard Regiment with a couple Elites and maybe an HQ. There should be some rules that allows the Inquisitor Led force to take stuff from another Dex, and everyone gets a faction keyword, with then triggers a Faction Keyword Detachment which THEN triggers a Faction Doctrine/whatever set. Much like the way GSC works/worked with borrowing Guard units as a guide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Chambers Militant are for...

The Chambers Militant already have their own Dex - and I've already pointed out they or the AM Codex should be where much of the Inquisitor led army should come from.

The Siege of Vraks is a great example. By the conclusion of the siege, the Inquisitorial forces present upon the planet consisted of dozens of Inquisitors and their retinues, including the most senior Inquisitor within the sector, proctor-general Hector Rex. They brought their personal gear, such as Landraiders. Several companies of Inquisitorial stormtroopers were deployed (under direct Inquisition control). Multiple companies of the Red Hunters Astartes Chapter were deployed (also under direct Inquisitorial control through ancient pacts). Millions of DKoK guardsmen from the 88th Siege Army had been inducted via Inquisitorial Mandate and were under the direct control of the Inquisition, with Inquisitors leading units at multiple levels, Hector Rex being commander in chief. The Grey Knights were deployed to the siege as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, under the overall leadership of Hector Rex.

The only units deployed that were not directly controlled by the Inquisition, but instead operated under voluntary cooperation, were the Red Scorpions and Angels of Absolution Astartes deployments and the Legio Astorum titans.

We have also seen specialised Inquisitorial units like D-99, an augmented unit of IG veterans under permanent Inquisitorial control.

An Inquisitorial force extends in scope from a lone operative, through kill teams and combat patrols, to entire indentured combined-arms forces millions strong. On the scale of a 40k battlefield, it is easy to have a solely-Inquisition force.

 Haighus wrote:
The Siege of Vraks is a great example. By the conclusion of the siege, the Inquisitorial forces present upon the planet consisted of dozens of Inquisitors and their retinues, including the most senior Inquisitor within the sector, proctor-general Hector Rex. They brought their personal gear, such as Landraiders.

Because of how I'd do the alternate Codex recruiting, I would be inclined to include a Land Raider data sheet with a touched up Transport section - I had forgotten about Inquisitors in Terminator Armor who might be with Guard who would not be <CHAPTER> infantry.

Several companies of Inquisitorial stormtroopers were deployed (under direct Inquisition control). Multiple companies of the Red Hunters Astartes Chapter were deployed (also under direct Inquisitorial control through ancient pacts). Millions of DKoK guardsmen from the 88th Siege Army had been inducted via Inquisitorial Mandate and were under the direct control of the Inquisition, with Inquisitors leading units at multiple levels, Hector Rex being commander in chief. The Grey Knights were deployed to the siege as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, under the overall leadership of Hector Rex.

Direct Control is not the same as Codex of Origin for lack of a better term. Marneus Calgar ran the defense of Vigilus which included some Space Wolves, but that didn't make them Ultramarines. It made them Space Wolves that took orders from an Ultramarine. Just like the DKOK were still DKOK who took orders from the Inquisition. The Red Hunters were not Inquisition troops, they were Adeptus Astartes who took orders from the Inquisition.

The only units deployed that were not directly controlled by the Inquisition, but instead operated under voluntary cooperation, were the Red Scorpions and Angels of Absolution Astartes deployments and the Legio Astorum titans.

We have also seen specialised Inquisitorial units like D-99, an augmented unit of IG veterans under permanent Inquisitorial control.

An Inquisitorial force extends in scope from a lone operative, through kill teams and combat patrols, to entire indentured combined-arms forces millions strong. On the scale of a 40k battlefield, it is easy to have a solely-Inquisition force.

As even you've just pointed out its not a solely-Inquisition force, its an amalgamated force that is led by the Inquisition. The Inquisition Dex should be all about the two different ways to add/make the Inquisition force, and then the mechanics for the various options to do it - be it Deathwatch or Catachans or Sisters of the Bloody Rose or whatever. I think the Inquisition led force should have to pick one codex to pick from in addition to their own - Space Marine, Sisters, AM - and there should be a set of Doctrine/whatever for if they're led by an Inquisitor and pull from whicever. I think there should be anoter section for when they're Imperial Agents assisting an OTHER force, with some sort of force multiplier or some other benefit based on what the OTHER faction is. But we don't need a book with Inquisitorial DKOK squads, or Inquisitorial Deathwatch Redemptor Dreads.

I agree that an Inquisitorial codex shouldn't duplicate the other Imperial codices and should have rules to allow easier allying.

However, I think small forces should be entirely doable in an Inquisition codex alone, particularly in games from the 500-1000pt range.

Henchmen are really variable, and should include options like augmented troopers. Inquisitorial Stormtroopers would be the mainstay though- these are distinct from Scions and could be given some interesting special gear.

I'd be very happy to roll in the other Agents of the Imperium as various indentured forces- Naval armsmen, Arbites, Rogue Traders etc. fit well in this role.

Added together and a small force should be easy to build. It would be limited beyond a certain size without adding another force.

For the record, Red Hunters are technically separate, but operate entirely at the behest of the Inquisition. They usually deploy as honour guards to individual Inquisitors and rarely deploy in strengths sufficient for independent operations. I don't think this is common enough to add a Marine honour guard to an Inquisitorial codex, but it does happen.