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I'm sure the Black Dragons have reacted with pure joy to the whole Primaris thing

 Irbis wrote:
...

Your posting and discussion culture is really not worth anybody's time.

 Gert wrote:
So they have been confirmed as a Successor of the Fists and they have had their background expanded.
Yeah, the thread is there as a possibility but it's almost entirely down to the name and a little bit the colour scheme.

Sometimes it feels like people here want to argue with you just for sake of arguing. Did I say they are not IF successors? Did I say there is NO background at all? Do we really think color scheme, icon and name are purely chosen at random without even a small nodge towards Fulgrim? Do you think it would say outright that their genes are taken from a traitor Primarch instead of just alluding to, so people can have their own headcanon about it? Did "yeah sure, totally a successor Chapter from xy" not happen in the past canon?

Read again what mrFickle asked and stop posting to try and one-up strangers on the internet. For gak's sake this is annoying.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Did I say they are not IF successors? Did I say there is NO background at all?

You literally said that there was next to no background and that Irbis had "fanoned" their actual background in as much as the people who claim the Sons of the Phoenix are EC descendents.

Do we really think color scheme, icon and name are purely chosen at random without even a small nodge towards Fulgrim? Do you think it would say outright that their genes are taken from a traitor Primarch instead of just alluding to, so people can have their own headcanon about it? Did "yeah sure, totally a successor Chapter from xy" not happen in the past canon?

You must have missed the bit where I said there was still a bit of a thread regarding the Sons of the Phoenix being possible EC, yet with their expanded background it was entirely down to a name and a very very roughly similar colour scheme.

Read again what mrFickle asked and stop posting to try and one-up strangers on the internet. For gak's sake this is annoying.

They asked if the notion that there were Primaris using Traitor Primarch geneseed was a canon thing and it isn't, it's community fanfic derived from one interaction and a Chapter with a name that's close to Fulgrim's title of Phoenician.

mrFickle wrote:
I thought salamanders chose not to have successors. We’re the black vipers created without their consultation because cawl had access to their gene stock

The Salamanders chose not to have a *second founding.*

The later foundings are supposed to be done without the first/second founding chapter’s consultation. The high lords have absolutely no reason to give new chapters an alternative loyalty to terra. That’s how it’s supposed to be, according to the normative description. Many authors have given new chapters some kind of parent chapter for some reason.

Or their understanding of their origin could be wrong or else maybe they were lied to.

5th Ed BA codex had a story of their high executioner coming to an 'ultramarines' successor to deal with their brethren that had fallen to the black rage. They had no concept of it, thought it was some kind of curse or trick of chaos and did everything they could to.hide knowledge of it from everyone.

If course when our guy turned up and explained to a face full of bolters that no, they were blood angels, not ultramarines and yes, this was part of their heritage, it may have blown their minds and started something of an identity crisis.


I like the notion of successor chapters seeing their parents chapter, noping right out of there and doing their own thing. Kind of a thing of interest to me. We always assume, for example space Wolves are axe wielding space barbarian vikings with teef, wolf-nouns and a bit of a thing for personal honour. Csn 'space wolf heritage' be anything else? What if, instead of that they were like the currin (baltic vikings who were rich, famously loved ships, had great gear and were europes last pagans) and were ship based with great artisan gear and were 'professional raiders' with none of the 'personal glory' and basically drew on 'other' aspects of vikings heritage and history. Or else based on Norman culture (which evolved from vikings who settled in France and were famously battle hungry mercenaries).which had petty fiefs and kingdoms all over Europe.

Loads of ideas to play with.

 Gert wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Did I say they are not IF successors? Did I say there is NO background at all?

You literally said that there was next to no background and that Irbis had "fanoned" their actual background in as much as the people who claim the Sons of the Phoenix are EC descendents.

Irbis' claim was the Sons of the Phoenix "being near copy-paste of Black Templars". Let's have a look at the currently known background for the chapter. Five minutes is enough to read it several times over because there is next to no background written about them. Apart from a lot of generic nothing burgers we are told that their Chaplains are leading the constant crusades and pilgrims from Adeptus Ministorum follow their victories. This and MAYBE the part about their pauldrons being "often richly embellished" is the only character defining fluff about them right now. No mention of an Emperor's champion. No mention of the whole chapter being on a crusade. No mention of them being fleet borne instead of having a chapter monastery on a planet. No mention of them possibly being more than 1000 Marines. No mention of them not having Librarians.

Literally a "copy-paste Black Templar" chapter if I ever saw one.

 Gert wrote:
They asked if the notion that there were Primaris using Traitor Primarch geneseed was a canon thing and it isn't, it's community fanfic derived from one interaction and a Chapter with a name that's close to Fulgrim's title of Phoenician.

And I never said that it was canon. As it is often with 40k lore, there are bits and pieces that are left ambigious to make things more interesting and open up the possibility for idividual head canon, instead of stating things outright. To my knowledge there is no "reliable narrator" mention anywhere that Cawl never used traitor Primarch geneseed for his Primaris experiments. But we do have that short interaction where Cawl discusses it with Guilliman, where it indicates that Cawl has the possibility and he argues for using it.

 Gert wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
In light of the conversation prior, Sons of the Phoenix is exactly the kind of chapter mrFickle is asking for.
The color scheme, the name and the chapter symbol are all pointing to Emperor's Children.

Given there is next to no fluff about them yet, saying they are "near copy-paste Black Templars" is as much of your own fanon injected into them, as the EC theory.

That is untrue. On page 68 of the 9th Ed Marine Codex, the Sons of the Phoenix are identified as an Imperial Fists Successor Chapter and they are described as follows:

Spoiler:

Faithful to the Emperor and ritualistic in their battle cant, the Sons of the Phoenix pride themselves on plunging into the flames of battle. Their crusades are so impressive in spectacle they pave the way for the Imperial creed to spread, and hence are followed by a great many holy men and women. The Chapter fleet was scattered by the opening of the Great Rift, and now the Sons of the Phoenix crusade to gather their forces back as one.

So they have been confirmed as a Successor of the Fists and they have had their background expanded.
Yeah, the thread is there as a possibility but it's almost entirely down to the name and a little bit the colour scheme.

They have been confirmed as designated as an Imperial Fists Successor. But GW loves to do the Are They Or Aren't They even more than a coed buddy cop show entering their fourth season. Did Cawl dabble with the geneseed that he dare not speak its name(especially in front of Bobby G)? Did the two missing Legions get absorbed by the Ultramarines? If so, did any of their successor chapters trace their geneseed back to the missing primarch instead of Bobby G? Also Page 68 doesn't say they're a Son of Dorn. It's implied because the ones above are, and the next one is on the next page as a son of Corax. But there is no specific delineation between the end of Dorn and the beginning of Corax, nor even any confirmation the successor chapters are grouped together in such a manner.

 Irbis wrote:
I like that one Salamander successor chapter that took one look at ISIS-like Promethean creed and decided 'screw this, we're outta here'. And when Salamanders sent chaplain to forcibly convert them to it anyway he 'mysteriously' disappeared

That's not quite how it went.
The Black Vipers were identified as a Successor Chapter of the Salamanders, at which point the Salamanders sent a Chaplain to teach them the ways of the Promethean Cult. This Chaplain disappeared while the Vipers themselves actively shun contact with other Imperial forces. However, they are often found to be present in warzones where agents of Belisarius Cawl are also operating.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:
No mention of the whole chapter being on a crusade.

Actually there is: The last two lines about their Crusades being impressive yadda yadda, and the next one that says the Chapter Fleet was scattered, and they now crusade to get "the band" back together so to speak.

Breton wrote:
They have been confirmed as designated as an Imperial Fists Successor. But GW loves to do the Are They Or Aren't They even more than a coed buddy cop show entering their fourth season. Did Cawl dabble with the geneseed that he dare not speak its name(especially in front of Bobby G)? Did the two missing Legions get absorbed by the Ultramarines? If so, did any of their successor chapters trace their geneseed back to the missing primarch instead of Bobby G? Also Page 68 doesn't say they're a Son of Dorn. It's implied because the ones above are, and the next one is on the next page as a son of Corax. But there is no specific delineation between the end of Dorn and the beginning of Corax, nor even any confirmation the successor chapters are grouped together in such a manner.

I have explicitly agreed that it is a possibility that Cawl has used non-Loyalist geneseed. What I have not agreed on is that GW has made it explicitly canon that Cawl has done so, which is what the OP actually asked.
As for groupings of Successors in that section of the Codex, reading it in any other way is actively looking for a silly reason to justify a point. The Ultramarines section has all its Successors grouped together and then the other First Foundings have theirs grouped later. It's not rocket science.
And yes, sometimes Chapters change what Founder they had depending on changing background. The Black Dragons in the Codex are presented as an Unknown Founder but recently they were confirmed as Salamanders Successors. Likewise, the White Templars used to be of Imperial Fists descent but have now been reclassified as an Unknown Founder Chapter.

Wait, Blood ravens have a chapter of PRimaris? How? I thought no one knew anything of their chapter's lineage, as it was "lost".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, Blood ravens have a chapter of PRimaris? How? I thought no one knew anything of their chapter's lineage, as it was "lost".

They still submit a geneseed tithe. That will be where the material for the creation of their Primaris came from.

mrFickle wrote:
I thought salamanders chose not to have successors. We’re the black vipers created without their consultation because cawl had access to their gene stock

Guilliman purposely had equal numbers of Primaris from all nine lineages made. He states in Dawn of Fire that he does not want the Ultramarine lineage to remain as dominant as it has been. If Primaris successors want to rekindle the culture of their lineage, they're free to do so, or not do so if they wish. The Space Wolves were especially put off by successors at first, stating, "You may be Sons of Russ, but that does not make you Wolves of Fenris." This was eventually reconciled at the Kin-Pack Declaration, where Logan Grimnar
decreed the Space Wolf creed would be upheld across their successors, though not all the SW successors agreed to this or implemented it in their own way. Essentially giving players a nice lore reason to use Codex: Space Wolves with completely different color schemes.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, Blood ravens have a chapter of PRimaris? How? I thought no one knew anything of their chapter's lineage, as it was "lost".

Chapters don't need to know their lineage to use Cawl's tech. It can convert existing geneseed stores into Primaris. All chapters received this tech, not all chapters received Awakened Primaris reinforcements.

 Gert wrote:

Breton wrote:
They have been confirmed as designated as an Imperial Fists Successor. But GW loves to do the Are They Or Aren't They even more than a coed buddy cop show entering their fourth season. Did Cawl dabble with the geneseed that he dare not speak its name(especially in front of Bobby G)? Did the two missing Legions get absorbed by the Ultramarines? If so, did any of their successor chapters trace their geneseed back to the missing primarch instead of Bobby G? Also Page 68 doesn't say they're a Son of Dorn. It's implied because the ones above are, and the next one is on the next page as a son of Corax. But there is no specific delineation between the end of Dorn and the beginning of Corax, nor even any confirmation the successor chapters are grouped together in such a manner.

I have explicitly agreed that it is a possibility that Cawl has used non-Loyalist geneseed. What I have not agreed on is that GW has made it explicitly canon that Cawl has done so, which is what the OP actually asked.
As for groupings of Successors in that section of the Codex, reading it in any other way is actively looking for a silly reason to justify a point. The Ultramarines section has all its Successors grouped together and then the other First Foundings have theirs grouped later. It's not rocket science.
And yes, sometimes Chapters change what Founder they had depending on changing background. The Black Dragons in the Codex are presented as an Unknown Founder but recently they were confirmed as Salamanders Successors. Likewise, the White Templars used to be of Imperial Fists descent but have now been reclassified as an Unknown Founder Chapter.

My point was also that they could either be the last of one chapter or the first of another. They could be the last Imperial Fist, or the first Raven Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, Blood ravens have a chapter of PRimaris? How? I thought no one knew anything of their chapter's lineage, as it was "lost".

They still submit a geneseed tithe. That will be where the material for the creation of their Primaris came from.

I wonder which Chapter emblem was on their Pauldron. That UM guy I was talking about who got shipped off to the Nova Marines from the Grey Legion had the Ultramarines Pauldron. He was not the only one to get shipped to a successor after having a First Founding pauldron.

Not every Chapter got Greyshields. Some just got fully kitted reinforcements in their Chapter colours, while others got just the technology.

Breton wrote:
I wonder which Chapter emblem was on their Pauldron. That UM guy I was talking about who got shipped off to the Nova Marines from the Grey Legion had the Ultramarines Pauldron. He was not the only one to get shipped to a successor after having a First Founding pauldron.

All Greyshields wore the first founding colors of their lineage with a grey chevron over the pauldron. This would be replaced after the Greyshields were broken up to either make new chapters or reinforce others.

jareddm wrote:

Breton wrote:
I wonder which Chapter emblem was on their Pauldron. That UM guy I was talking about who got shipped off to the Nova Marines from the Grey Legion had the Ultramarines Pauldron. He was not the only one to get shipped to a successor after having a First Founding pauldron.

All Greyshields wore the first founding colors of their lineage with a grey chevron over the pauldron. This would be replaced after the Greyshields were broken up to either make new chapters or reinforce others.

That's kind of my point.

Cawl: Next!
Marine: I don't know my founding chapter.
Cawl: Oh. This is awkward. Go stand over there.

Presumably since Greyshields were only created from the genetic material of the nine loyalist Primarchs, and not from specific Chapter geneseed, it would be impossible to have a Greyshield of unknown lineage.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Presumably since Greyshields were only created from the genetic material of the nine loyalist Primarchs, and not from specific Chapter geneseed, it would be impossible to have a Greyshield of unknown lineage.

Possibly? I mean, Cawl being told “don’t use the naughty boy Geneseed” and Cawl not using the naughty boy Geneseed don’t see the same thing.

I’d need to refresh, but wasn’t the Cursed Founding partially blamed on the naughty boy Geneseed being used?

Cursed Founding was a result of the Biologis tampering with geneseed to reduce the chances of mutation and generic aberration.
It resulted in new mutations but many ended up getting purged or turning renegade as they were hunted to extinction. Very few Cursed Founding Chapters remain at this point.

I wanna see some Black Dragons primaris now...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I wanna see some Black Dragons primaris now...

Story about exactly that in the Successors anthology. Story's called, "Bless The Curse."