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Yeah, the Daemon Codex will be:

The generic one we have right now.

1 for Khorne.

1 for Slaanesh.

1 for Nurgle.

1 for Tzeentch.

1 for Be'lakor.

So if you play Khorne, congrats, the new detachment system gives you one whole army to play whereas everyone else gets multiple.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Daemon Codex will be:

The generic one we have right now.

1 for Khorne.

1 for Slaanesh.

1 for Nurgle.

1 for Tzeentch.

1 for Be'lakor.

So if you play Khorne, congrats, the new detachment system gives you one whole army to play whereas everyone else gets multiple.

I really hope there are no god specific detachments, the whole issue with the faction is people's want to play mono-god, which as identified, is less than ideal in a book seemingly designed to be played as a whole. Then they shove in rules to the contrary to promote people using 1/4 of an army and leave them wondering why they have the options of 1/4 of a normal army.

It's GW. You know they won't be able to help themselves.

It's either that or every detachment looks like the current CSM one, where we get 5 Strats and 5 Enhancements, only one of which you can actually use if you're doing mono-God.

More to the point, why shouldn't people be able to do mono-God?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's GW. You know they won't be able to help themselves.

It's either that or every detachment looks like the current CSM one, where we get 5 Strats and 5 Enhancements, only one of which you can actually use if you're doing mono-God.

More to the point, why shouldn't people be able to do mono-God?

They absolutely should be able to, but GW have on and off tried to treat that as the de-facto way of using daemons, which gives the impression that each should be a stand alone faction, but they simply aren't, hence why they're part of a larger undivided book. The result is a lot of people asking why their army doesn't have many units, but the answer is that GW has duped them into using 1/4 of an army and thinking its complete.

Basically, should be possible, but if someone opts to only use 1/4 of the book, don't be shocked if you have 1/4 the options of most books.

So I just looked at the new 40K app and there are loads of characters that can be your warlord for less than 100pts. Just can’t an undivided one but you can still soup if you have a Khorne warlord

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If….and only if…..Daemon Princes were renamed Exalted Daemon Princes, bog standard, non-giant-Boi Daemon Princes could fit in that role?

That wouldn't really fit the OP's criteria of being "small" and joining units as leaders though, right It would just be an unalligned hq with, presumably, a daemon prince's stats and price.

Dunno. Background wise a mortal elevated to Daemonhood, but now]t powerfully so, can still be a Lt equivalent.

Because nobody ever said the Chaos Gods elevate equally or fairly, or even have a concept of equal and fair.

This is coloured by my reading of the Realms of Chaos books. All that matters to the gifting God is that a gift is given to their champion. Maybe you’ll get something objectively good, like Iron Hard Skin, a Daemon Weapon or Wings. Maybe you’ll get something objectively crap. Like a Silly Voice, Brightly Patterned Skin or Silly Walk. All genuine gifts in that era.

Indeed the difference between Spawn or Daemonhood was one’s own strength of Will. Once you have enough gifts, your body is so saturated with Chaotic Energies you either become a hideous Spawn, or a Daemon.

What I’m proposing is something to represent a sort of middle ground, that you did indeed ascend to Daemonhood, but did so with a bunch of not-terribly-useful gifts compared to a Daemon Primarch, Be’lakor etc.

And yes, it was I that argued we need more God Specific Daemon Units. Because they’ve barely been expanded since Rogue Trader. And I absolutely stand by that assertion, because it’s true. And if you disagree, you’re wrong. In the face.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And there certainly shouldn't be Undivided Daemon Princes.

The Chaos Gods (I almost wrote "GW" there... ) made that mistake exactly once - Be'lakor - and never again.

This is something of a shift though, or at least a narrowing of the lore.

Undivided daemon princes were supported in the rules and lore, and Lorgar and Perturabo fall into this group. In 3rd edition, daemon princes were even treated as a sort of continuum, with champions being considered daemon princes after they accrued enough gifts and inhumanity to be more daemon that not. That could happen gradually or via an apotheosis. It isn't clear who or what grants these gifts for undivided individuals: it may be the raw power of Chaos, it may be specific rewards granted by a god for a specific request with one individual acquiring gifts from multiple gods, it may be gifts from more minor Chaos entities. I don't think it has ever been explored in detail and the lore has since focussed on the big four. If anything, Chaos has become less chaotic and more regimented.

The model range for daemon princes still supports this, with a number of "generic" Chaos builds available to even the new model- god specific heads are also provided.

Be'lakor is unique in being the only daemon prince specifically elevated and blessed by all of the big four. He isn't just undivided, but ascendant like Abaddon.

That’s my reading of Be’lakor as well.

An Undivided follower will enter service for different gods at different times, but never dedicate themself entirely. And they’ll receive rewards for such service.

Be’lakor however had all four deliberately elevate him. A conscious effort, rather than the result of accumulated accolades.

I think you'd easily be able to justify adding mortals to the chaos daemons book. In particular the Dark Commune, Cultists and whatever those mutated Cultists are called. It would make sense for a daemonic incursion to have a presence in the materium through worshippers before they jump out of the warp to start killing people. You could also add things like Furies for other unaligned but markable units.

However whether people would agree with all of that is a different matter.

Speaking of needing a small generic HQ, when did Chaos lose furies? They've got plastic in Age of Sigmar, and there's are a few other models that could be pulled across if they needed to fill out "undivided lesser demons".

 solkan wrote:
Speaking of needing a small generic HQ, when did Chaos lose furies? They've got plastic in Age of Sigmar, and there's are a few other models that could be pulled across if they needed to fill out "undivided lesser demons".

It looks like they lost them in 9th as Whahapedia lists them for 8th.
And by lost them, I mean GONE. They don't even have 9e legends stats.