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Idle pondering on this.

Do the Alpha Legion serve as evidence of The Imperium’s wasted potential? Not just in the modern day setting, but all the way back to the Great Crusade?

It was the comment above by Iracundus, about them showing how they do it, and bringing a world into compliance with greatly reduced Imperial casualties, yet Guilliman, someone I normally think of as embodying the potential, and his 500 Worlds a tantalising glimpse of how it could’ve been, just seeing it as taking too long. And in doing so, showing that The Imperium has always been wasteful in its sheer brutality.

We tend to think of Astartes as a pretty blunt instrument, whether used enmasse as per the Crusade and Heresy era, or with greater precision in the modern era. They go in, they make an unholy mess, and if all goes well leave the enemy’s command structure gutted, and its military forces in disarray. And that’s done fairly heedless of friendly casualties.

But, the Alpha Legion went about it in a different way. The result was the same as in the modern era, just achieved by more cunning means, and for the Imperium, relatively bloodlessly.

How different would The Imperium have been if their approach had been more widely accepted and emulated?

To me, it adds a new level of terror about Astartes. Sure The Alpha Legion are the masters of it, but they still stand to show any Astartes force could do the same.

It’s also something where the Astartes physiology comes into play. Being able to put just half of their brain to sleep, they can maintain a constant vigil over whatever surveillance devices they have. Their armour feeding them and taking care of bodily waste likewise extends the time they can spend in the field observing.

It wasn't just the speed of the XXth's conquest, it's that by the end of it the planet had no government, no materials, and no infrastructure.

Yes, the Legion had conquered the world with relatively little bloodshed but it then had no use as a world in the Imperium. It couldn't produce goods, provide troops, or be left to acclimate to its new rulers because the planet was in complete chaos.

I haven't read any of these books, but I'm not sure how that is necessarily worse than a planet that has been bombed into submission. If anything, its better as the infrastructure and stuff is still there, it just requires a new administration to step in and assert control.

Because during the Crusade most worlds weren't bombed into submission.

The Legions acted as the speartip to take out the main points of opposition while the various other Imperial forces would act in support roles directly linked into the chain of command.

Yes, there were times when the World Eaters, Death Guard, or Dark Angels were needed to enact compliance through brute force but these were more often against Xenos-occupied worlds than humans.

The entire campaign on Tesstra Prime was the XXth showing off because the other Legions didn't like their tactics. The whole campaign was an exercise in the Legion getting mad that their egos weren't being fed by anyone but Horus. The XXth basically announced their presence, landed openly, waited for the enemy to dig in, and then a week later the opposition had taken 90% casualties and surrendered. Yes, it was impressive but the compliance should have been a one-and-done job because the Crusade couldn't afford to get bogged down when other options presented a more efficient solution.
Alpharius even said that he chose those tactics because the other options were too easy.

The XXth weren't the only Legion to face censure for their slow pace of conquest either. The Word Bearers got it from Big E himself with Monarchia.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I think this highlights one of the core issues of the Horus Heresy series, which is essentially one big exercise of explaining the noodle incident.

This is the problem with more than just the Horus Heresy. I'd say it applies to pretty much every attempt at GW to expand upon historical lore, and how they approached introducing new lore.

The broad strokes approach that 40K had to lore for the vast majority of its lifespan created the impression of a vast, rich world. The reader fills in the gaps themselves and as a result are thinking about the world as they do so, the lack of concrete detail makes it feel like a puzzle for you to solve, to engage with. As GW has gone back and backfilled everything with ever more mundane details, that world has shrunk as there are less gaps for you to actually think about yourself, rather you are instead just told everything.

It's the wikification of a fictional world, where every detail must be accounted for to up the word count on the relevant pages. A large part of it has been driven by the fans themselves clamouring for more of these details. It's the meme from the good place about how human it is to make something you love worse just so you can have more of it.

I think a good example of this is the rampant speculation on, and clamoring for, details on the two lost legions. Anything GW comes up with and publishes will likely be far worse than whatever you’re thinking, or expecting, in regard to them. It’s one of those things better left as a bit of lore, than fleshed out. But I have a feeling GW will likely do something with it in my remaining lifetime. They just can’t help themselves, and fans can be just as bad.

 Gert wrote:
Because during the Crusade most worlds weren't bombed into submission.

The Legions acted as the speartip to take out the main points of opposition while the various other Imperial forces would act in support roles directly linked into the chain of command.

Yes, there were times when the World Eaters, Death Guard, or Dark Angels were needed to enact compliance through brute force but these were more often against Xenos-occupied worlds than humans.

The entire campaign on Tesstra Prime was the XXth showing off because the other Legions didn't like their tactics. The whole campaign was an exercise in the Legion getting mad that their egos weren't being fed by anyone but Horus. The XXth basically announced their presence, landed openly, waited for the enemy to dig in, and then a week later the opposition had taken 90% casualties and surrendered. Yes, it was impressive but the compliance should have been a one-and-done job because the Crusade couldn't afford to get bogged down when other options presented a more efficient solution.
Alpharius even said that he chose those tactics because the other options were too easy.

The XXth weren't the only Legion to face censure for their slow pace of conquest either. The Word Bearers got it from Big E himself with Monarchia.

It again seems to come down to what the Emperor wanted from his Legions: speed of conquest at a certain acceptable casualty rate and let others pick up the pieces and clean up the mess later.

The Word Bearers took their time indoctrinating those they conquered before moving on. The Alpha Legion took time in order to more efficiently annihilate the enemy with fewer losses.

Both did not give what the Emperor wanted: speed. However we saw what happened with the Emperor's focus on speed and grab everything as fast as possible, save the cleaning up for later, approach. The Emperor delayed resolving the contradictions and fault lines within the Imperium and then the Heresy happened.

 totalfailure wrote:


I think a good example of this is the rampant speculation on, and clamoring for, details on the two lost legions. Anything GW comes up with and publishes will likely be far worse than whatever you’re thinking, or expecting, in regard to them. It’s one of those things better left as a bit of lore, than fleshed out. But I have a feeling GW will likely do something with it in my remaining lifetime. They just can’t help themselves, and fans can be just as bad.

I have inside information from the future, and can tell you how the two lost legions will be introduced!

The Emperor will return to life... and open up a new vault!

/duck

Somehow, the Emperor returned

Iracundus wrote:


It again seems to come down to what the Emperor wanted from his Legions: speed of conquest at a certain acceptable casualty rate and let others pick up the pieces and clean up the mess later.

The Word Bearers took their time indoctrinating those they conquered before moving on. The Alpha Legion took time in order to more efficiently annihilate the enemy with fewer losses.

Both did not give what the Emperor wanted: speed. However we saw what happened with the Emperor's focus on speed and grab everything as fast as possible, save the cleaning up for later, approach. The Emperor delayed resolving the contradictions and fault lines within the Imperium and then the Heresy happened.

I think we're losing sight of something here, which is that different primarchs (and presumably, other people in power within the early Imperium) valued different things, but also encountered a wide variety of situations. The Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Ultramarines, Word Bearers, and others would all argue that their methods were superior by citing situations in which their methods got the results they wanted. But I'm sure - propaganda aside - that each of them would have certain campaigns fail. Arguably, what made Horus the Warmaster was that he (and his subordinates) could pivot between being Tacticool Operator, Shock and Awe, Efficient Administration, Inspirational Zeal, etc. etc. as the situation warranted.

Longstrider wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


It again seems to come down to what the Emperor wanted from his Legions: speed of conquest at a certain acceptable casualty rate and let others pick up the pieces and clean up the mess later.

The Word Bearers took their time indoctrinating those they conquered before moving on. The Alpha Legion took time in order to more efficiently annihilate the enemy with fewer losses.

Both did not give what the Emperor wanted: speed. However we saw what happened with the Emperor's focus on speed and grab everything as fast as possible, save the cleaning up for later, approach. The Emperor delayed resolving the contradictions and fault lines within the Imperium and then the Heresy happened.

I think we're losing sight of something here, which is that different primarchs (and presumably, other people in power within the early Imperium) valued different things, but also encountered a wide variety of situations. The Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Ultramarines, Word Bearers, and others would all argue that their methods were superior by citing situations in which their methods got the results they wanted. But I'm sure - propaganda aside - that each of them would have certain campaigns fail. Arguably, what made Horus the Warmaster was that he (and his subordinates) could pivot between being Tacticool Operator, Shock and Awe, Efficient Administration, Inspirational Zeal, etc. etc. as the situation warranted.

Horus didn't favour guerilla warfare though, which is a big part of why Corax fell out with him.

Overall his chief strength as warmaster was his diplomatic skills, something heavily lacking from most of the other Primarchs. Sanguinius was one of the main contenders for the position because he was also diplomatic.

 Haighus wrote:

Overall his chief strength as warmaster was his diplomatic skills, something heavily lacking from most of the other Primarchs. Sanguinius was one of the main contenders for the position because he was also diplomatic.

Unfortunately, it's also quite likely what caused his fall, since the (original - possibly changed?) explanation for his corruption was that he decided to play nice with a world by joining its "warrior lodge". This in and of itself wasn't a problem, and it wasn't the first time that the primarchs had done something like this in an effort to build a relationship with locals and sway them over without fighting. But unfortunately, this particular lodge turned out to be performing rites dedicated to Chaos.

Eumerin wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Overall his chief strength as warmaster was his diplomatic skills, something heavily lacking from most of the other Primarchs. Sanguinius was one of the main contenders for the position because he was also diplomatic.

Unfortunately, it's also quite likely what caused his fall, since the (original - possibly changed?) explanation for his corruption was that he decided to play nice with a world by joining its "warrior lodge". This in and of itself wasn't a problem, and it wasn't the first time that the primarchs had done something like this in an effort to build a relationship with locals and sway them over without fighting. But unfortunately, this particular lodge turned out to be performing rites dedicated to Chaos.

Eh... its been retconned. The warrior lodges were a mechanism by which Chaos spread through the Sons of Horus and other legions, but they were not Chaotic in nature. Overall Horus now falls to Chaos because Erebus engineered a situation (using the lodges) in which he could be stabbed with a Chaos macguffin that corrupts him.

So a soft retcon in content, that is a big retcon in theme.

They were organised by the Word Bearers chief, they were absolutely Chaotic in nature.
Insidious infiltration of the Legions through subversive means to turn them against the Emperor.

 Gert wrote:
They were organised by the Word Bearers chief, they were absolutely Chaotic in nature.
Insidious infiltration of the Legions through subversive means to turn them against the Emperor.

Ah, I must've misremembered. I thought the Word Bearers merely hijacked lodge systems originating from other sources.

There were secret societies within the Legions dating back to their more barbaric roots during the Unification Wars.

The Luna Wolves and Word Bearers copied the Warrior Lodges after Davin's first compliance 60 years before the compliance of 63-19 when Loken came face to face with Samus in the Whisperheads incident.
When the Word Bearers fell, the Lodges were used as a way to spread the influence of Chaos through the Legions as by this time many had taken up the practice or had their own societies co-opted by the Chaplains of the Word Bearers.