Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 LunarSol wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Why would you want to have to buy a second book to play your faction?

Because marines do, so it's a good idea /s.

Not just Marines did/do. GSC have had to buy Guard. Ynnari, anyone using Imperial Agents, etc.

Ynarri datasheets are now in the Eldar codex, correct? Generally speaking I think that's a preferable trend. Brood Brothers could definitely just be in the GSC dex for example. Agents I have.... ideas on, but as unique design space its not the worth thing to exist (even if it was implemented terribly).

Ynarri were? always in the Eldar codex but you had to get the Dark Eldar codex for the full benefit. I'm of a split opinion. If I played all the (sub)factions in the book, I'd want them all combined into one slightly cheaper book. If I only played one subfaction like Aeldari but not Ynarri, I'd be a little annoyed at having to buy a bigger codex with higher price.

Breton wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Ynarri datasheets are now in the Eldar codex, correct? Generally speaking I think that's a preferable trend. Brood Brothers could definitely just be in the GSC dex for example. Agents I have.... ideas on, but as unique design space its not the worth thing to exist (even if it was implemented terribly).

Ynarri were? always in the Eldar codex but you had to get the Dark Eldar codex for the full benefit. I'm of a split opinion. If I played all the (sub)factions in the book, I'd want them all combined into one slightly cheaper book. If I only played one subfaction like Aeldari but not Ynarri, I'd be a little annoyed at having to buy a bigger codex with higher price.

Right, that's why I said now. The new Eldar Codex has the Drukhari datasheets in it now. Definitely a trend I'd like to see continue.

I don't know, I miss when Ynnari could be any combination of Eldar (barring a few excluded units).

Now they're just another Craftworld subfaction with all the flavour carefully stamped out. In a book that's already eaten Harlequins and Corsairs. Plus a third of the DE codex.

Though, at this point, I'm of a mind that we should just feed the entire DE codex to the Craftworld one and put them out of their misery.

I have mixed feelings about this as an Ork player. On one hand, I can see this is as a way to flesh out klanz a bit more than what our book currently covers and a potential way to reflect further nuances than some of the stereotypical depictions for how the Klanz work (e.g. Evil Sunz are all bikerz/speed freeks, or all Blood Axes are kommandos) and maybe even get a special character or two for each klan since we've lost quite a few in the transition to having only plastic models. However, given how poorly GW's track record is in terms of doing spin off subfactions in the past, even when it was just subfactions within the Ork codex, there were some clear "haves and have-nots".

People overwhelmingly played Deffskullz in 8th because they had the best subfaction rules across all models, whereas Blood Axes were barely seen since it was the most situational and it didn't really fit their fluff either of being the most tactical.

I remember the old WAAAAGH! forum having fan codices for each klan and I think what worked the most was that they went outside the box and made adjustments to existing units that better suited to the Klan's prediliction for certain types of warfare without literally making them just spam one type of Ork unit. This included allowing Meganobz to swap our their Power Klaws and Kombi Weapons for Heavier, Snazzier guns for Bad Moons and proper Looted vehicle rules for Blood Axes. This was alongside changes in the FOC and new wargear for HQ models.

However, with GW's current design philosophy of "no model, no rules", this is basically never going to happen and they have a tendency to have to make entirely new units to justify the subfaction (e.g. look at 8-bound being introduced instead of giving devourers or red butchers). I would really rather avoid more bloat and Ork armies are typically ecletic enough in a WAAAGH! that having only one Klan in a fight is pretty rare, so I think differentiating the type of army with detachments is better for now and a lot of the issue for adequeate representation of certain armies (e.g. Speed Freeks) is more due to the weakness of datasheets for units like buggies/bikes than anything else. The main things we're missing for Orks at the moment is an Armoured Krumpany style detachment or a Grot Revolution one, though those are largely due to lack of model support since FW has been gutted ruleswise. Would love to see grot snipers and more grot oriented units.

Basically, I don't want a marine subfaction knock off situation all over the place where GW gives half-hearted support and then forgets to properly support it until they just cut their losses and fold them back into the main book again anyways. The 2nd WAAAGH! Ghazghkull supplement remains to this day one of the worst Ork codex add-ons in the entirety of Orks rules in 40k.

I do think it could be worthwhile to split Orks into two different dexes:

* Blood Axe Klan
* All the rest

This would give more design freedom for game devs for giving further distinction to Blood Axes, who imitate Imperial war machines and tactics, from the rest of the Orkoids, who, IIRC, treat the "umie lovin, drillin and paradin" Blood Axes with suspicion

This way, I could also get Tin Boyz back, as well as rules for looted Imperial vehicles in Blood Axe lists

Why wouldn't any other Klan have looted vehicles?!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why wouldn't any other Klan have looted vehicles?!

Because looted vehicles have always been exclusive to Blood Axes.

Just as we've always been at war with Eurasia.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why wouldn't any other Klan have looted vehicles?!

I'm just writing conjecture, but, the blood axes probably repair/restore vehicles that might have been damaged/destroyed, to the point where its basically the same function as the original vehicle, where as other clans would be more likely to take the husk of the vehicle and convert it into something like a battle wagon or a trukk or some other ork vehicle.

The only Subfaction book of Orks I'd want is Grot Revolution.
Give us Grot HQs, Grot Tanks, big guns, Grot Infantry with proper guns, Snotlings as swarm units, pump waggons and all the Red Gobbos.

 tauist wrote:
I do think it could be worthwhile to split Orks into two different dexes:

* Blood Axe Klan
* All the rest

This would give more design freedom for game devs for giving further distinction to Blood Axes, who imitate Imperial war machines and tactics, from the rest of the Orkoids, who, IIRC, treat the "umie lovin, drillin and paradin" Blood Axes with suspicion

This way, I could also get Tin Boyz back, as well as rules for looted Imperial vehicles in Blood Axe lists

I don't think it should be a hard split. I think this part should be like the Space Marines - a core Codex with Clan Supplements - including special Bosses, and a few other characters, some units, and some rules to flip and flop army design around between a little and a lot depending on the Clan.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The only Subfaction book of Orks I'd want is Grot Revolution.
Give us Grot HQs, Grot Tanks, big guns, Grot Infantry with proper guns, Snotlings as swarm units, pump waggons and all the Red Gobbos.

This makes the most sense.

Obviously not.

There should be crusade rules for every clan. No one else gives a damn about playing anything but the most powerful army bonus anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:
Obviously not.

There should be crusade rules for every clan. No one else gives a damn about playing anything but the most powerful army bonus anyways.

Additional miniature support and fiction/merch are also a part of being a separate faction. The amount of choice marines have to model exactly what they want using a dozen model lines is unparrelleled. Having even half of that in other factions would be awesome and imo absolutely fair.

There's no reason that variant models and variant rules should necessarily be linked though.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
There's no reason that variant models and variant rules should necessarily be linked though.

It would be more accurate to say there's no GOOD reason, but GW definitely considers there to be reasons.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
There's no reason that variant models and variant rules should necessarily be linked though.

It would be more accurate to say there's no GOOD reason, but GW definitely considers there to be reasons.

Framing any of these discussions based on what GW would/will do is pointless - they're never going to be swayed by any argument presented here, and are always going to go with whichever course of action wrings the most cash out of the game/setting/players.

We should want and demand more than that.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Obviously not.

There should be crusade rules for every clan. No one else gives a damn about playing anything but the most powerful army bonus anyways.

Additional miniature support and fiction/merch are also a part of being a separate faction. The amount of choice marines have to model exactly what they want using a dozen model lines is unparrelleled. Having even half of that in other factions would be awesome and imo absolutely fair.

GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

 Jidmah wrote:


GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

I don't have the Marine dex or any of the supplements, so I can't say for sure, but there are things in this post which aren't consistent with the way I've understood the rules based on Warcom and Forum posts.

IF your army includes only base SM units that are not restricted by a supplement, you can call them whatever you want and use any SM detachment- even the ones from the supplements. So in this case, YES, different factions DO provide more options for detachments, but fewer options for models.

IF your army includes modelss of a specific subfaction, it can use regular SM detachments as well as those from its own supplement. But it can't use SM models forbidden by its own supplement, nor can it use subfaction models of other subfactions. In this case, it's possible that the number of models you get access to for choosing your subfaction may be smaller than the number of models you are prevented from using, but it's by no means a guarantee.

So your example of Deathwing Termies, Sanguinary Guard and Thunderwolves working together with Guilliman is thing that, as I understand it, can't happen. And in truth, fluffwise, it probably shouldn't.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

I don't have the Marine dex or any of the supplements, so I can't say for sure, but there are things in this post which aren't consistent with the way I've understood the rules based on Warcom and Forum posts.

IF your army includes only base SM units that are not restricted by a supplement, you can call them whatever you want and use any SM detachment- even the ones from the supplements. So in this case, YES, different factions DO provide more options for detachments, but fewer options for models.

IF your army includes modelss of a specific subfaction, it can use regular SM detachments as well as those from its own supplement. But it can't use SM models forbidden by its own supplement, nor can it use subfaction models of other subfactions. In this case, it's possible that the number of models you get access to for choosing your subfaction may be smaller than the number of models you are prevented from using, but it's by no means a guarantee.

So your example of Deathwing Termies, Sanguinary Guard and Thunderwolves working together with Guilliman is thing that, as I understand it, can't happen. And in truth, fluffwise, it probably shouldn't.

If you are meta chasing and don’t want to repaint everything, you can share a paint scheme, and just use the allowed units in one specific list.

So you have purple painted guiliman, TWC, sang guard, intercessors, inceptors. You can only use one of the fist 3 in any given list, but the last 2 are universal. Going purple keeps them from having to paint blue, grey and red versions of them as the meta shfts.

 Nevelon wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

I don't have the Marine dex or any of the supplements, so I can't say for sure, but there are things in this post which aren't consistent with the way I've understood the rules based on Warcom and Forum posts.

IF your army includes only base SM units that are not restricted by a supplement, you can call them whatever you want and use any SM detachment- even the ones from the supplements. So in this case, YES, different factions DO provide more options for detachments, but fewer options for models.

IF your army includes modelss of a specific subfaction, it can use regular SM detachments as well as those from its own supplement. But it can't use SM models forbidden by its own supplement, nor can it use subfaction models of other subfactions. In this case, it's possible that the number of models you get access to for choosing your subfaction may be smaller than the number of models you are prevented from using, but it's by no means a guarantee.

So your example of Deathwing Termies, Sanguinary Guard and Thunderwolves working together with Guilliman is thing that, as I understand it, can't happen. And in truth, fluffwise, it probably shouldn't.

If you are meta chasing and don’t want to repaint everything, you can share a paint scheme, and just use the allowed units in one specific list.

So you have purple painted guiliman, TWC, sang guard, intercessors, inceptors. You can only use one of the fist 3 in any given list, but the last 2 are universal. Going purple keeps them from having to paint blue, grey and red versions of them as the meta shfts.

Or I could have a blue Guillman, SW grey TWC, red Sang Guard & Intercessors etc of ??? Color and get the exact same rules effect....

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

I don't have the Marine dex or any of the supplements, so I can't say for sure, but there are things in this post which aren't consistent with the way I've understood the rules based on Warcom and Forum posts.

IF your army includes only base SM units that are not restricted by a supplement, you can call them whatever you want and use any SM detachment- even the ones from the supplements. So in this case, YES, different factions DO provide more options for detachments, but fewer options for models.

IF your army includes modelss of a specific subfaction, it can use regular SM detachments as well as those from its own supplement. But it can't use SM models forbidden by its own supplement, nor can it use subfaction models of other subfactions. In this case, it's possible that the number of models you get access to for choosing your subfaction may be smaller than the number of models you are prevented from using, but it's by no means a guarantee.

So your example of Deathwing Termies, Sanguinary Guard and Thunderwolves working together with Guilliman is thing that, as I understand it, can't happen. And in truth, fluffwise, it probably shouldn't.

If you are meta chasing and don’t want to repaint everything, you can share a paint scheme, and just use the allowed units in one specific list.

So you have purple painted guiliman, TWC, sang guard, intercessors, inceptors. You can only use one of the fist 3 in any given list, but the last 2 are universal. Going purple keeps them from having to paint blue, grey and red versions of them as the meta shfts.

Or I could have a blue Guillman, SW grey TWC, red Sang Guard & Intercessors etc of ??? Color and get the exact same rules effect....

Rules wise, yes. But aesthetically it’s nice to have your army look coherent.

 Nevelon wrote:
[/spoiler]

ccs wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

I don't have the Marine dex or any of the supplements, so I can't say for sure, but there are things in this post which aren't consistent with the way I've understood the rules based on Warcom and Forum posts.

IF your army includes only base SM units that are not restricted by a supplement, you can call them whatever you want and use any SM detachment- even the ones from the supplements. So in this case, YES, different factions DO provide more options for detachments, but fewer options for models.

IF your army includes modelss of a specific subfaction, it can use regular SM detachments as well as those from its own supplement. But it can't use SM models forbidden by its own supplement, nor can it use subfaction models of other subfactions. In this case, it's possible that the number of models you get access to for choosing your subfaction may be smaller than the number of models you are prevented from using, but it's by no means a guarantee.

So your example of Deathwing Termies, Sanguinary Guard and Thunderwolves working together with Guilliman is thing that, as I understand it, can't happen. And in truth, fluffwise, it probably shouldn't.

[spoiler]

If you are meta chasing and don’t want to repaint everything, you can share a paint scheme, and just use the allowed units in one specific list.

So you have purple painted guiliman, TWC, sang guard, intercessors, inceptors. You can only use one of the fist 3 in any given list, but the last 2 are universal. Going purple keeps them from having to paint blue, grey and red versions of them as the meta shfts.

Or I could have a blue Guillman, SW grey TWC, red Sang Guard & Intercessors etc of ??? Color and get the exact same rules effect....

Rules wise, yes. But aesthetically it’s nice to have your army look coherent.

Maybe that works for you, but I think painting faction specific items some other color just to chase the Meta looks stupid.
I'd simply rather field mixed paintjobs & tell you it represents a joint operation.

Yeah I'd rather have/allow multi-faction marine armies/combined arms or whatever instead of painting them all to look the same. Kinda makes sense anyways too since you're supposed to more commonly see multiple smaller chapter/companies in the same engagement instead of more than one company of the same chapter.

I just paint my Ultras blue and leave other chapter specific stuff to other players. Meta be damned. But I’m just a casual.

Just giving some insight on why people paint chapter special units in non-chapter schemes.

I'll paint everything black with a silver arm no matter what chapter its from, but that's kind of the point of the Deathwatch.

 LunarSol wrote:
I'll paint everything black with a silver arm no matter what chapter its from, but that's kind of the point of the Deathwatch.

Spoiler:

Beautiful painting, but the idea of every marine being drafted into the deathwatch is kinda funny hehe. "Sorry Marneus, the deathwatch needs you, you too Dante and Azrael.Logar, believe it or not, deathwatch"

BanjoJohn wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I'll paint everything black with a silver arm no matter what chapter its from, but that's kind of the point of the Deathwatch.

Spoiler:

Beautiful painting, but the idea of every marine being drafted into the deathwatch is kinda funny hehe. "Sorry Marneus, the deathwatch needs you, you too Dante and Azrael.Logar, believe it or not, deathwatch"

I just tell people that Leandros keeps catching Guilliman with Yvrainne.

Also always fond of the mission briefings. "Men, today's mission will be lead by Captain RuffRuff, so I hope you've all been practicing your howls"

 Jidmah wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Obviously not.

There should be crusade rules for every clan. No one else gives a damn about playing anything but the most powerful army bonus anyways.

Additional miniature support and fiction/merch are also a part of being a separate faction. The amount of choice marines have to model exactly what they want using a dozen model lines is unparrelleled. Having even half of that in other factions would be awesome and imo absolutely fair.

GW essentially just tricked marine players into thinking that having buy three books is a privilege, when the real gain is just not being able to put units with the <Blood Angels> keyword in the same army as units with the <Dark Angels> keyword.

Today competitive marine players have painted their Sanguine Guard, Deathwing Terminators and Thunderwolf Cavalry in the same paint scheme as their Guilliman, so they can have the best army for the current meta.

Space Marine chapters aren't extra choices, they are extra restrictions.
More models are extra choices.

They are extra choices that come with extra restrictions.

But the point is GW only create the kind of variety of models marines have when they also have factions to go with them. Whether they should is a separate question.

Those extra models offer not just different play options, but conversion and creativity options. More miniature options that can be used by all factions that use that kind of model. You have unparalleled customisation no other faction has. And with HH an entire game devoted to providing EVEN MORE options.

Whether you use sanguinary guard as that unit, or just the models to mode some cool unit if your own, the mere presence of the models gives you more than their absence.

ccs wrote:
Maybe that works for you, but I think painting faction specific items some other color just to chase the Meta looks stupid.
I'd simply rather field mixed paintjobs & tell you it represents a joint operation.

First of all, you are pretty much the opposite of a competitive player. Which is absolutely fine and probably even a more happy place to be. In competitive games, miniatures are just game pieces, neither them nor the game being played is trying to represent any part of the lore.

Second, especially larger events require your army to be painted in a coherent paint scheme in order for your army to be considered as fully painted. This was introduced to prevent people from fielding an incoherent mess of borrowed unit and last minute ebay purchases. The consequences might be anything from losing points to you being forced to remove those units.

Third, it isn't just to chase the meta. If you already own thousands of points of red marines, why would you rebuy/reprint, rebuild and repaint all those units just because you want to try some wolf marines or green/black/white marines for a change? No one else is rebuying their entire army for adding a small handful of highly specialized units either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:
But the point is GW only create the kind of variety of models marines have when they also have factions to go with them.

That's clearly not the case. We had these subfactions for all armies in the past and it did not change the fact that marines still got significantly more models than anyone else.

In any case, this thread's question is not whether there should more models, but if there should be be separate codices. The answer is no. More codices do not generate more releases - if you don't believe me, just check the releases for the three legions split off the CSM codex compared to the CSM codex itself. There is no reason to believe that GW would handle orks any different.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why wouldn't any other Klan have looted vehicles?!

They would, but they'd be Orky vehicles (buckets of tin made from scraps with 'uge amounts o dakka). For Blood Axes, you could basically use imperial vehicles as is, same stats etc

I would personally like to see Blood Axes kind of like GSC, in the sense that they can have IG militia and imperial vehicles. Other Ork clans would never be into apeing the IoM, much less be interested in using their vehicles as-is.

This is why I see Blood Axes as the most divergent of all Ork clans. In my headcanon Blood Axes have as much common with IG as they have with Orks. This is unique, and their stats, army lists / strats / etc should reflect that