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So, catching up with different factions/codexes and whatnot, and I notice that factions like world eaters, deathguard, and whatnot have codex when I never would have imagined they'd have enough of their own units/stuff to warrant a codex, so that got me thinking.

Orks have a lot of clans, I know they're all kinda been blended into a generic "gorka morka" clan, but GW could revitalize the blood axes, evil suns, goffs, snakebites, bad moons, and other clans into their own codex if they wanted to. What do you think? Should they?

I don't play Orks, and I'm not super knowledgeable about their lore, so I'll leave it to Ork players to say whether or not they feel separate books would be an improvement.

But I will say that I thought the game was more interesting for everybody but Marines and Chaos back in 9th when subfactions meant something for the other factions in the game.

Dex splitting does provide design space and incentive to model subfaction specific units, and the Ork range might be large enough that subfaction specific units are all that's left to add. It does come with some drawbacks too: a common complaint from folks is that dex splitting leads often leads to core unit exclusions.

I've seen little evidence that Orks Klans are so different as to make separate Codexes a good way to express the faction. It is not like the Four Chosen Chaos Legions who have very strong thematic elements and long standing unique units that make them operate differently from the other Legions.

Either EVERY faction should get Supplements based on subfactions, or none should.

I'm in the latter camp-have robust generic and customizable rules, not lots of bespoke and unchanging rules.

No. Definitely not. We don't need to waste paper making it more expensive to get your ork rules in one place.

If anything, there should be fewer books out there. All loyalist marines other than Grey Knights and maybe Death Watch can be pretty easily rolled into a single marine 'dex.

Daemons should be rolled in with their god's specialist marines in god-specific books, and those books should *probably* have access most of the generic CSM units. Not letting Death Guard take predators or World Eaters take havocs feels like a hollow attempt to justify splitting them out into their own books.

A 5th chaos undivided book can house the rest of the CSM and provide detachments for themes that aren't tied to one specific god. So your generic chaos champions/mutation detachment, your veterans of the long war, your generic brand chaos worshippers, etc.

While GW continues to favorite marine chapters people will continue to ask for their own subtraction books.

For Orks I would see speed freaks, beast Boyz and freebootaz as separate books rather than one per clan. But even then, there are trillions of bad moons and 1000 blood angels so the idea is not ridiculous.

If I were condensing them all down I'd do them by species faction:

Codex imperium
Marines, sisters, mech, guard, agents

Codex Orks
Speed freaks, beast Boyz, freebootaz, clans

Codex Tyranids
Vanguard, invasion, cults

Codex tau
Cadre, Kroot, auxiliaries

Codex chaos
Daemons, cultists, marine cultists

Codex necrons
Slaves of the ctan, dynasties reborn, flayer cult, destroyer cult

Codex Eldar
Craftworlds, corsairs, exodites, ynnari, Harlequins

Codex votann
Leagues, the diaspora, ironkin

Codex Scum and villainy
Dark Eldar, alien mercenaries, rebel marines



Otherwise I'd do a codex for each subheading.

The thing that irritates me about the marine codexes is that they're not even subfactions - they're SUB sub factions. Codex Dark angels is the equivalent of codex alaitoc shadow scorpion shrine. Or codex cadians - that would at least represent fighting forces of a size not removable with one good capital ship barrage.

Imperium is the faction, marines are one arm of imperial forces and one chapter is but one part of that.

There's no fluff reason why any of the Kult Legions shouldn't have access to most stuff from the CSM Codex, so splitting them already comes with downsides. It was ridiculous in earlier editions when CSM threw away their Drop Pods and Speeders when joining Chaos, it's even more ridiculous when DG throws away their Chosen, Possessed and Vindicators.

Also, Ork tribes and Waaaghs often appear with mixed Klans and at the same time any Klan uses any unit. Putting all the buggies into Evil Suns, all the Beast Snaggas into Snakebites, all Lootas to Deathskullz and all Kommandos to Blood Axes would just leave 6 Ork factions that are worse off than before and with restrictions that are against the fluff.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There's no fluff reason why any of the Kult Legions shouldn't have access to most stuff from the CSM Codex, so splitting them already comes with downsides. It was ridiculous in earlier editions when CSM threw away their Drop Pods and Speeders when joining Chaos, it's even more ridiculous when DG throws away their Chosen, Possessed and Vindicators.

Well, there's actually pretty darn good fluff reason for the Thousand Sons.

That said, I would have to imagine that - if we're to believe the fluff - all Chaos Legions should be able to field much more in terms of Primaris tech, what with all the raiding and looting.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There's no fluff reason why any of the Kult Legions shouldn't have access to most stuff from the CSM Codex, so splitting them already comes with downsides. It was ridiculous in earlier editions when CSM threw away their Drop Pods and Speeders when joining Chaos, it's even more ridiculous when DG throws away their Chosen, Possessed and Vindicators.

Well, there's actually pretty darn good fluff reason for the Thousand Sons.

That said, I would have to imagine that - if we're to believe the fluff - all Chaos Legions should be able to field much more in terms of Primaris tech, what with all the raiding and looting.

I like to imagine that the repulsor has keyless ignition with stop/start and the poor chaos guys have got so used to driving manual with a key, they cant figure out how to start it.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There's no fluff reason why any of the Kult Legions shouldn't have access to most stuff from the CSM Codex, so splitting them already comes with downsides. It was ridiculous in earlier editions when CSM threw away their Drop Pods and Speeders when joining Chaos, it's even more ridiculous when DG throws away their Chosen, Possessed and Vindicators.

Well, there's actually pretty darn good fluff reason for the Thousand Sons.

And yet, Thousand Sons USED TO have access to a greater range of units than they do now. Curious...

It…depends.

First and foremost, the background has long established that any size of Ork force can be comprised of different Clans. They’re just not as separated as other variants in the game.

It’s common for one Clan to be dominant though, so with 40K being a snapshot, there’s nowt wrong with just fielding a single Clan.

The next question is how distinct would they be in the board? Going back to 1st and 2nd Ed, Clan allegiance mostly influenced unit upgrade options. The Boyz themselves didn’t tend to have fancy rules.

With that in mind? I don’t think that approach provides sufficient distinction in modern 40K.

So how to add sufficient distinction, especially in a system with no FoC? Do we limit or exclude certain units from different Clans? Provide special rules to encourage certain builds for each Clan?

BanjoJohn wrote:
I never would have imagined they'd have enough of their own units/stuff to warrant a codex,

GW have added and subdivided things to pad them out into codex size, along with a move over the years/decades from warband structures to chapter structures.

Orks don't have any clan specific units - they are like eldar in the sense that one clan may like bikes more but all clans have bikes, etc.

You can generally make any style of Ork army out of the book with little issue. The various detachments cover the general vibe of each klan well enough that it doesn't require additional codexes. There's also no Klan specific units, only units that klans prefer. For example there's no reason that you couldn't take warbikers, or a big mek, or flash gitz in any given klan, but each Klan will prefer to have more or less of those units.

If there was a Klan that had its bespoke units, and played so drastically different from the rest of them, and couldn't be built out of the regular book, then they'd need their own codex. But for now it's fine in one book.

Pepperidge Farms remembers when Black Templars didn't have any super special unique snowflake units either...

Other than the Crusader. And their Ablative Wound Scouts. Before that, they were a paint scheme rather than a variant Chapter.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other than the Crusader. And their Ablative Wound Scouts. Before that, they were a paint scheme rather than a variant Chapter.

To be fair, if you go back far enough all marines were the same, just with different paintjobs.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It…depends.

First and foremost, the background has long established that any size of Ork force can be comprised of different Clans. They’re just not as separated as other variants in the game.

It’s common for one Clan to be dominant though, so with 40K being a snapshot, there’s nowt wrong with just fielding a single Clan.

The next question is how distinct would they be in the board? Going back to 1st and 2nd Ed, Clan allegiance mostly influenced unit upgrade options. The Boyz themselves didn’t tend to have fancy rules.

With that in mind? I don’t think that approach provides sufficient distinction in modern 40K.

So how to add sufficient distinction, especially in a system with no FoC? Do we limit or exclude certain units from different Clans? Provide special rules to encourage certain builds for each Clan?

I'm a hybrid choice. I don't think Orks lend themselves to the mono subfaction as well as others - I think the orc subfactions should have some bespoke units (Black, Lootas, Beast, etc) and I think your Warlord faction should do some juggling as he's better/happier commanding some units than others. Just making up an example here - but say your In-Their-Face Goff warlord doesn't really have the right instincts for Lootas - so if your warlord is Goff then boyz and nobz type stuff get frenzied while the Flash Git and Loota types are already demoralized by having a leader who doesn't value them - what that means in the rules I don't know, but the theme was what I was after.

Every subfaction of every faction should have some minor variations for theme. A Blood Skulls WAAAGH should play different than a Bad Moons, than a Snakebite and so on. But that doesn't mean it should be done by lifting and dropping Space Marine Chapter rules onto Orks or Nids just because it may work for Necrons or Tau.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Either EVERY faction should get Supplements based on subfactions, or none should.

I'm in the latter camp-have robust generic and customizable rules, not lots of bespoke and unchanging rules.

This.

Especially when the 'bespoke' rules are 50 different variations of 'Sustained Hits' and 'fight after dying' stratagems, just with increasingly silly names.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Either EVERY faction should get Supplements based on subfactions, or none should.

I'm in the latter camp-have robust generic and customizable rules, not lots of bespoke and unchanging rules.

This.

Especially when the 'bespoke' rules are 50 different variations of 'Sustained Hits' and 'fight after dying' stratagems, just with increasingly silly names.

That's not an arguement for or against anything but kicking GW in the pants until they finally take advantage of their USR + Keyword system. They could do so much more with that than they do.

A.T. wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I never would have imagined they'd have enough of their own units/stuff to warrant a codex,

GW have added and subdivided things to pad them out into codex size, along with a move over the years/decades from warband structures to chapter structures.

Orks don't have any clan specific units - they are like eldar in the sense that one clan may like bikes more but all clans have bikes, etc.

Back in 2nd edition, was the last time I remember clans being a big deal, there were "clan units". Evil Suns were the only real warbike unit. Snakebites were the only unit able to ride boars. Goffs were the only ones with Scarboys. New units could be invented/created based on their differences.


I will say, off the top of my head the "Blood Axe" clan is the one clan I could see getting its own list/codex because of all the access to human equipment and human auxiliary/mercenary units that they should have access to. Blood Axe boys with bolters, Imperial Rhinos, Land Raiders, and human merc units who are basically the equivalent of guard platoons, but some differences could be made.

Why would you want to have to buy a second book to play your faction?

 LunarSol wrote:
Why would you want to have to buy a second book to play your faction?

Because marines do, so it's a good idea /s.

 Hellebore wrote:
While GW continues to favorite marine chapters people will continue to ask for their own subtraction books.

For Orks I would see speed freaks, beast Boyz and freebootaz as separate books rather than one per clan. But even then, there are trillions of bad moons and 1000 blood angels so the idea is not ridiculous.

If I were condensing them all down I'd do them by species faction:

Codex imperium
Marines, sisters, mech, guard, agents

Codex Orks
Speed freaks, beast Boyz, freebootaz, clans

Codex Tyranids
Vanguard, invasion, cults

Codex tau
Cadre, Kroot, auxiliaries

Codex chaos
Daemons, cultists, marine cultists

Codex necrons
Slaves of the ctan, dynasties reborn, flayer cult, destroyer cult

Codex Eldar
Craftworlds, corsairs, exodites, ynnari, Harlequins

Codex votann
Leagues, the diaspora, ironkin

Codex Scum and villainy
Dark Eldar, alien mercenaries, rebel marines



Otherwise I'd do a codex for each subheading.

The thing that irritates me about the marine codexes is that they're not even subfactions - they're SUB sub factions. Codex Dark angels is the equivalent of codex alaitoc shadow scorpion shrine. Or codex cadians - that would at least represent fighting forces of a size not removable with one good capital ship barrage.

Imperium is the faction, marines are one arm of imperial forces and one chapter is but one part of that.

FWIW, GW treats the game as having 4 factions:

Space Marines
Imperium
Chaos
Xenos

Splitting the sub factions under those headers makes the divide make a lot more sense.

In particular, seeing Chaos Legions divided out makes a lot more sense when you realize its more making a codex for each god rather than just the marines now.

Honestly, it's weird to me when marine players defend having their faction split up into so many books, and extra weird when other people want their own army to be treated the same way. Like, the Blood Angels codex is a handful of datasheets and a detachment. And half those datasheets are just +1 versions of generic units.

I absolutely do not want eldar to get that treatment. We don't need to spend an extra $50 for Codex Supplement: Ulthwe so that we can have slightly more expensive guardians with the deepstrike rule. And we certainly don't need bespoke Black Guardian kits that you have to buy to use them. You can just... give units rules that fit their fluff and accept that your dudes don't need to be more extra special-er than the other subfaction's dudes.

The only exception I would make is a grot revolution book. Give me Da Red Gobbo! It would be too much fun to turn down.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, it's weird to me when marine players defend having their faction split up into so many books, and extra weird when other people want their own army to be treated the same way. Like, the Blood Angels codex is a handful of datasheets and a detachment. And half those datasheets are just +1 versions of generic units.

I absolutely do not want eldar to get that treatment. We don't need to spend an extra $50 for Codex Supplement: Ulthwe so that we can have slightly more expensive guardians with the deepstrike rule. And we certainly don't need bespoke Black Guardian kits that you have to buy to use them. You can just... give units rules that fit their fluff and accept that your dudes don't need to be more extra special-er than the other subfaction's dudes.

Becuse it results in a huge amount of miniature support they don't otherwise get. Marines can draw from a huge catalogue of miniatures for all sorts of things because they invest in making all sorts of units for each sub faction. There are 2 autarch models.

Becuse it results in more fluff and background support. Every additional marine codex adds to marines as a whole across all aspects of the hobby, not just an army list.

Army rules are just one small part of the greater general support it offers

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Honestly, it's weird to me when marine players defend having their faction split up into so many books, and extra weird when other people want their own army to be treated the same way. Like, the Blood Angels codex is a handful of datasheets and a detachment. And half those datasheets are just +1 versions of generic units.

I absolutely do not want eldar to get that treatment. We don't need to spend an extra $50 for Codex Supplement: Ulthwe so that we can have slightly more expensive guardians with the deepstrike rule. And we certainly don't need bespoke Black Guardian kits that you have to buy to use them. You can just... give units rules that fit their fluff and accept that your dudes don't need to be more extra special-er than the other subfaction's dudes.

I'm technically kinda on your side with this, but I thought this was worthy of discussing because I saw a post about the Exodite Eldar and people wanting a codex for them. I think loyalist marines could be wrapped into one codex, I think all chaos (all 4 gods and undivided and demons and chaos marines and chaos traitor guard) could be one codex, all eldar could be one codex. I think GSC could be put back in the same codex as tyranids. And oh I dunno, but I would do a lot of consolidating.

But I got thinking, Orks do technically have a bunch of internal factions, ork clans, they had a lot of flavor and seperate miniatures in 2nd edition, many of those minis still were used in 3rd-4th, so why not see if anyone else would want new lists/units exploring those clans?

Definitely agree with Wyldhunt - even though they go back as far as the idea of codices, the decision to make individual marine books was a mistake and remains a mistake.

Dudeface wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Why would you want to have to buy a second book to play your faction?

Because marines do, so it's a good idea /s.

Not just Marines did/do. GSC have had to buy Guard. Ynnari, anyone using Imperial Agents, etc.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Why would you want to have to buy a second book to play your faction?

Because marines do, so it's a good idea /s.

Not just Marines did/do. GSC have had to buy Guard. Ynnari, anyone using Imperial Agents, etc.

Ynarri datasheets are now in the Eldar codex, correct? Generally speaking I think that's a preferable trend. Brood Brothers could definitely just be in the GSC dex for example. Agents I have.... ideas on, but as unique design space its not the worth thing to exist (even if it was implemented terribly).