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I disagree that laziness is the factor, but rather, it is society changing and the target customer demographic evolving.

Most people don't have the time to dedicate hours to a hobby once they are past childhood.
Heck, I think the last time I even played a game was December because it was the last time the schedules of our group aligned properly.
Painting and building sure but when a game can take upwards of two hours that's just time a lot of people don't have anymore.

The advent of Combat Patrol and Vanguard as properly supported systems with their own missions and free rules is probably the best thing GW has done in recent years to make their games more accessible.
Sure the lists are static but then when you're only playing 500ish points the games are quick and you have time to even swap armies to do more games.
You could expand into getting a standard 2-3k 40k/AoS army or you could grab a few different smaller armies instead and it actually be worthwhile to do so.

What's important is that the other options are also still there. You can do the standard 2k games of 40k/AoS along with TOW/HH for more advanced games, Kill Team/Necromunda/Warcry for mini-RPG sort of games, Underworlds for super quick competitive games, and Legions/Titanicus/Aeronautica for small-scale mass battles.
Then there's Blood Bowl for some truly goofy fun and MESBG for playing a universe that isn't Warhammer.

jim30 wrote:
Great thread!

One Q I've always had - was/is Kirby a gamer? I never got the sense he was part of it in any big way.

He was a roleplayer. Did some (one?) supplements, GM'd a bit. Dropped all that when he found management more interesting. Not into wargames.


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 Gert wrote:
I disagree that laziness is the factor, but rather, it is society changing and the target customer demographic evolving.

Most people don't have the time to dedicate hours to a hobby once they are past childhood.

But also as a kid, what did I mostly do? Pour over models, magazines, and army lists. Got to play the games i wanted to maybe 6 times a year. I ironically get more games in now I am in my 40s!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rowntree also took what I presume to be a calculated risk in bringing back side games, after Kirby had shuttered Specialist Games entirely.


I’ve no doubt those games make only a modest profit each. But I’d guess the philosophy there is “it’s new money, and a decent chunk we’d have missed out entirely, as we’re catering to those uninterested in, or unable to afford, a 40K or AoS army”.

Chatting to the old SG staff a fair bit, essentially what Kirby and management saw was the SG stuff cannibalised sales from larger lines. The one always quoted was a soft re-launch of BFG in the states. Total sales were up, but 40k sales dropped. While they had a greater turnover their overhead increased with more SKUs and work needed to support it, so profit was down. GW has normally been laser focused on % profit. They have always wanted to be a highly profitable company, not one with a high turnover but low profit. Who remembers the model redesigns for 40k and epic that got rid of most of the earlier detail to save wear and tear on moulds (and boasted about in the annual report).

I think the new management realised they were letting their competitors grow in the market segments they had abandoned, so profit was no longer the driving incentive.

You can not overlook the first to market advantage.

It is a well-known and well-documented benefit in business literature and theory.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
But also as a kid, what did I mostly do? Pour over models, magazines, and army lists. Got to play the games i wanted to maybe 6 times a year. I ironically get more games in now I am in my 40s!

Interesting indeed that our experiences are very different.

From the ages of 11-19 I was getting at least one game in a week, sometimes two split between a local GW and friends houses.

Kid situations varied a lot generation to generation - I got very few games in part because I lived in a fairly rural area so getting to any major town as a good hours drive to get there. Furthermore the Warhammer hobby wasn't really a thing in my school generation at all (nor was MTG); they were more things the older students got into and whilst there was the odd club here and there, they were never that well attended.





That said on the subject of models here; rules there; other stuff over there - honestly its not lazy for customers to want 1 ecosystem of easy purchases all under one roof. It's easy, its quick, its low barrier, low confusion entry. The more hurdles you put in place the more people burn out and just wander off for something easier to get to grips with. Esp if they are having to do their own research on things to find out what is what.

I know I've passed on games or model lines just because it seemed that it took forever to find anything.


Another is company interest - wargames are "slow" product lines. Gamers want games that have a sense that they'll be around in many years time. So firms that show disinterest ;poor websites; very few updates and so on can often have that air.

Heck even GW had that problems for years - Sisters of Battle being a prime example of an "ignored" army. As soon as that happens the sales drop and its a death spiral because even those who are interested worry that the models will be gone in a year or less so why bother even starting.

Self promotion is probably the biggest factor. In the UK they had the stores, but for people around my age (40s) they may also remember the WHFB and 40k box sets in the Argos catalogue. Back in the late 80s/early 90s that was basically how a lot of kids wrote their Christmas lists - pick stuff out from the Argos catalogue. Having the main game boxes in there was huge exposure, as was Hero Quest and Space Crusade being in toy shops across the country. The models helped with self-promotion as well. They were generally better than the competition, readily available and GW put a lot of effort into presenting them in the best light with professional in-house painters. The 'Eavy Metal in old WDs might look a bit comical now, but it made a difference back then.

GW were among the first to really push the pick-up game approach too. That was a big change from historical wargames and even other fantasy and sci-fi games. Being able to collect an army independent of other people's collections and show up to a club or GW store and play anyone really helped grow the game. Then, once you have critical mass, the whole thing just keeps going, steamrolling a lot of competition before they can even get off the ground.

I think White Dwarf played a large role in cementing Warhammer in the market.

I remember waiting for the next issue to learn what was coming out, what new rules or stories were going to be included, or even a free model, vinyl record (Bolt Thrower, anyone?), or even a Codex (Codex Assassins got me to buy my first WD).

Sure there were Wargaming Magazines, but a lot of them were way over my head as a kid... and some of them still are.

But White Dwarf was fun, and it made me want to get involved.

Also? White Dwarf.

A readily available monthly magazine in newsagents big and small. Whilst not Beano cheap, it was never outside of most pocket money, and it looked like nothing else on the shelf.

Even a single copy could be that first, damning Doobie on the road to a full blown plastic crack addiction.

The articles were actively entertaining, with personalities coming across the page, and importantly? Genuine Enthusiasm. The people writing it loved the hobby and what it offered, and wanted to share that with others. Conversions! Scratch Builds! ‘Eavy Metal! Battle Reports! Short Stories! Interviews! Genuine Sportsmanship!

And within its pages? New release catalogue pages and, crucially I’d argue, a store directory. Even if your town didn’t have one, there’d be one in a decent shopping area it wouldn’t be too hard to persuade your parents to visit.

And, at least during my era, all GW goods. All of it. Cheaper than advertising, paid its own way through copies sold, and amazing market penetration.

Never underestimate a White Dwarf’s ability to catch someone’s eye, and then their pocket.

OHH How could we go for 2 pages and forget White Dwarf!

Esp back in the 90s when it was the era of the mighty Fat Bloke in charge! Yes I recall reading and re-reading many many issues of White Dwarf. You might not be able to afford big armies when you were young, but a monthly magazine was well within reach of most pockets and yeah it was everywhere.

Magazines were also big back then too - it was the pre-internet dominance era so magazines in general were written very differently. Fewer ads/adpages; more meaty articles and in general more energy about them.

WD was also a lot of "fun" under Fatbloke, there was a wild charm that just captured the imagination and drew you into the world and setting.



It's waned in impact over the years - sometimes because GW tried gutting it to a shell of its former self; sometimes just in style; but it's always been there on the shelf.

Even now I noticed that whilst a lot of magazine racks have pulled back on all the wargame hobby magazines that burst back onto the shelves around the Pandemic and just after; White Dwarf is still on pretty much every rack.

Sure we are in the days of the internet and that is a powerful tool in its own right, but the Magazine is still a big draw and focus.


Honestly its a shame no other independent firm or company has managed to really pull the same trick with a 3rd party magazine for everyone else. At least for fantasy and sci fi - Historicals seem to have a better edge on it even if they drift in and out of appearing or just being direct order only .

Also rules for new units. Often, but not always (cries in 2nd Ed Epic) eventually published in a collected volume. Enough reason there to pick up a monthly copy, and keep your eyes fixed on the propaganda.

The battle reports were also pretty aspirational. Not just “man, painted armies look good battling it out”, but often the size and scale of games.

And almost all of it centre on Being A Good Sport. Which is why, when I first hit the interwebs back in….probably 1997? I had a bad reaction to the Tournament Crowd. It was just a mindset I’d never encountered, and so my idiot mind saw it as a corruption of the hobby.

Have much chilled out since then though!

WD and store staff from GW in the UK 100% sold that "this is a fun hobby come join in" aspect heavily.

Say what you like for GW and accept that the Kirby overseas hiring was almost entirely different and more salesman driven - but their UK side has always had this strong edge of making the hobby appear fun, welcoming and something you want to engage with

I do feel privileged to have played my past role as a GW Till Monkey.

I’ve said many times before, to see a shy kid get involved, and often pretty rapidly develop social skills and become comfy in their hobby safe space is a very cool feeling. To know that whatever crap they’re subjected to at school is offset by a few hours of gaming a week, in an environment where they’re welcome, and where they make friends just feels great.

It also means parents are surprisingly willing to spend. Models, paints, books, all of it. It’s not necessarily hundreds a month, but there’s usually something new bought.

Also, that UK Structure? There aren’t really any other stores like it. Is it all done chasing greater profits? Yes. Let’s not be silly. That is the desired goal. But the interest in seeing that kid grow and develop within the hobby is also genuine. Parents pick up on that.

I think GW did a lot of little things right, and certainly created a high quality product, at least compared with the other offerings of the time. But the long term success I do think has to come down to the complete vertical integration. GW owns it's IP, writes it's lore, creates it's own art, designs and manufactures its own products, and often sells them directly to customers. it also provides support in the form of the magazine, social media, events, tournaments, etc. GW is never one bad deal away from a massive set back.

The second thing that GW did was not just constantly improve, but remake old models in the new style. This allows them to continue to sell new product without having out of control range expansion.

It is startling that how many consultants would recommend a company have its own factories, writers, stores, magazine, etc. today. I suspect it would be seen as a rather archaic way of organising a manufacturing company.

Also? They really got the imagery right in the early days. Was like an interactive heavy metal album cover. Cool as hell.

Polonius wrote:I think GW did a lot of little things right, and certainly created a high quality product, at least compared with the other offerings of the time. But the long term success I do think has to come down to the complete vertical integration. GW owns it's IP, writes it's lore, creates it's own art, designs and manufactures its own products, and often sells them directly to customers. it also provides support in the form of the magazine, social media, events, tournaments, etc. GW is never one bad deal away from a massive set back.

The second thing that GW did was not just constantly improve, but remake old models in the new style. This allows them to continue to sell new product without having out of control range expansion.

True and its something that I think Warmachine fell down on. Granted they had tried but also done it moving to plastics which backfired at the time. But it not only helps control range expansion but also lets you keep old-customers. The ones who aren't spending but are playing; are running the clubs; are organising events and such.

The_Real_Chris wrote:It is startling that how many consultants would recommend a company have its own factories, writers, stores, magazine, etc. today. I suspect it would be seen as a rather archaic way of organising a manufacturing company.

In a sense it is - but then again a lot of modern business is very short term focused. You go for those big investors and loans to allow for a really rapid expansion into the market before any competition can get going; then you maximise on profit and keep an eye on when you have to bail out. I think in some ways being in a very niche product market that never really attracted BIG firms gave GW a shield. No one like Hasbro or Disney came to really try and take the market away from GW. So GW were allowed to keep steadily growing; expanding; making investments; making mistakes and all. There wasn't a big golden-firm pumping investor money in like mad to steal talent; dominate the marketing; drive prices down and so on.
It might be very different if some really big firm had muscled in and had driven the prices way down on investor money with huge marketing campaigns; powerful IP connections; celebrities and so on and so forth.


Heck There's another one - GW has never devalued their own product. They don't even do regular sales - sure we get discount boxes but they are all 100% volume controlled by GW and of limited runs. Otherwise never a single discount period for them. Which likely really helps their steady sales rate because they aren't now stuck in the "no one buys anything out-of-sale" which is SUCH an easy trap for a company and industry to fall into*


*just look at all those big-box stores that are almost in perpetual sales now.

I agree with a lot of what is already said and would like to also highlight the lasting value of the fluff they created for their game settings. Their staff made a lot of interesting background's for their armies and this carried over into the pages of White Dwarf. Over time, the most interesting stuff became canon and was continued by new staff.

The Black Library kicked this up several degrees and really fleshed out the settings. Even now when I find Warhammer 40K's rules, retcons, prices, and business model (planned obsolescence) repugnant, I still enjoy the fluff and will pay good coin for a book instead of the latest dull codice.

Also? Look to the recent Eldar release. A much needed overhaul, really split over two Codex Editions and three years.

Lots of new plastic models. Lots of refreshed sculpts.

But, Y’know? Someone who moved on at the end of Rogue Trader can, for the most part, dig out their old army, and the models will be perfectly usable. Oh they may want to buy the shiny new. But they don’t really need to.

Space Marines to a lesser degree, Orks more or less so. Nids you could, but you’ll have a pretty bare bones army from it.

Even so. We’re talking about a collection assembled and painted over 30 years ago, still be feasibly usable in the modern day.

Which is largely testament to strength of, and commitment to, GW’s design process.

I was also going to point out model design. I don't play Horus Heresy or Necromunda (no one plays locally), but I keep buying really cool new models.

Games Workshop has got me buying things that I know that I'll never use, just because they are cool looking.

No other miniatures company has had that effect on me.

I can't think of another game system where the "rule of cool," even applies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also? Look to the recent Eldar release. A much needed overhaul, really split over two Codex Editions and three years.

Lots of new plastic models. Lots of refreshed sculpts.

But, Y’know? Someone who moved on at the end of Rogue Trader can, for the most part, dig out their old army, and the models will be perfectly usable. Oh they may want to buy the shiny new. But they don’t really need to.

Space Marines to a lesser degree, Orks more or less so. Nids you could, but you’ll have a pretty bare bones army from it.

Even so. We’re talking about a collection assembled and painted over 30 years ago, still be feasibly usable in the modern day.

Which is largely testament to strength of, and commitment to, GW’s design process.

This is one of those things that isn't, and can't be, the main reason for GWs long term success but woo boy does it help. I was digging through some RT era Orks, and while they are different in size and overall vibe, many design elements are the same, and you could easily build units of shoota boys and kommandos out of the models that I had. As you said, it would be bare bones, but it's there.

Every now and then some models go completely dark, although with legends even that is rarer. But man, that late RT/early 2nd edition eldar range is just fire, and still lines up man for man with current units.

I think the key is that it doesn't burn bridges. Many collector hobbies can often just burn out older customers. Look at MTG - if you want to stick with it there's a LOT of constant buying that you HAVE to do to keep up. Not optional, you straight up have to keep buying to keep up with the current cycle.

Sure you can go to legacy but that has its own issues where it can even be not just constant buying but hunting down rare and exceptionally expensive cards. They aren't bigger nor shinier than regular cards, they are just limited production high demand and you can't just convert another card to proxy them in like you can with a wargame based on models.

You can drift out and drift back into warhammer and indeed many of us have done that (sometimes several times over the years). Sure when you return there are new things to get and all; but in general terms you can still put down a good chunk of your existing models. It removes a lot of that returning sting.

The golden goose is that you don't have to replace your old models but many people choose to anyway. And that's due to the huge investments and increases in model quality.

You could technically use RTB01 marines if you wanted. Even once they squat the tactical squad, you could call them intercessors. but nobody does, because the new models look better.

Not just that; GW was really smart in making "the hobby" part of the appeal. You don't just new models because they look really awesome; but also because you want to try a new paint scheme; or because you honestly enjoy assembling and modelling and such.

Making sure that was part of the hobby and appeal is a great way to help generate sales and interest - heck many of us don't even get half as many games as we do spend time messing with the models themselves.


It's a big contrast to say DnD where models are often viewed more disposably. You get them; use them once; toss them in a bucket of models and that's it.

When you get past the memes and think about it, GW viewing itself as a models company, not a games company, does set itself up for long term success. It makes games, but it's business is mostly the design, manufacture, and sale of the models.

There were always minor exceptions, but for the most part, people bought Warmachine to play the game, same with Legion. Some lines, like Inifinty or MCP, do have more notable markets of just painters, but nothing like GW has.

Thinking further on the store and market penetration?

Perhaps part of the answer is Formative Years.

Again speaking only for the UK, as that’s my experience? GW is the entry point to Wargaming. So, even if in due course you go off and discover other game which you prefer? You’ll likely have been a Warhammer player first. And thanks to their near universal reach? You’re only one “oh, that’s cool” release from spending a load of dosh.

Even things I hate from them are good business because they obviously don't bother most customers enough to actually move on.

Edition churn - keeps people hyped, keeps people excited for the next starter with reasonable value, and hey, we get to sell you a bunch of books that are mostly reprinted art and background at this point.

Scale increase - increasing the size of the models seems to have gone down well with most people, and lots have accepted replacing collections and so on with the newer, bigger models. I think this is the thing GW have done that annoys me the most, but when I look at the community response I can see I'm really in the minority here and most are happy with the newer, bigger models.

High Prices - people are still paying them! Even I went and picked up some of the Squighog boyz because I just think they're awesome models. I looked at alternatives for a good long while and and went back and forth with myself about it, but in the end I found a place that had them 20% off and picked up a box. And now they're built, I like them even more and am really looking forward to painting them once things calm down a bit.

So although I may grumble about their business practices, they are obviously working and the company seems to be doing better than ever.

Time.

Look at everything mentioned above as to why GW succeeded and it all comes to longevity and time.

Sure, the right time and place in some instances. GW has had the benefit of time to grow and succeed. It has been able to cope with failures and missteps.

Competitors to GW do not have or have not been allowed to have such a luxury to get it right.

And timing I’d argue.

They ultimately kinda created the miniatures market as we know it today. And by the time GW’s efforts had a community large enough to attract competition, they were very well established in terms of shops, casting and sculpting facilities, White Dwarf being easily found in pretty much any UK Newsagent. And it was able to do so by reinvesting the not insignificant profits it had made over what, a decade, maybe more?

That’s a fair while to have the audience more or less entirely to yourself, let alone one you pretty much built from scratch. And it meant for any other company to get noticed, it had to ramp up faster than GW had. Which costs money, and attracts a bigger risk to investment.

And of course, it didn’t stop there. It kept growing and developing.

For all that some corners of the Internet are determined that GW is shoddily run and incompetent? It’s clearly not. Especially in recent years, where its growth and expansion has been frankly incredible.

(The only other company that I can think of that has stayed in the market for a long time is Steve Jackson Games...)

Every other IP I can think of from D&D to BattleTech has been bought and sold and transfered a bunch of times.

And my thought about that is that other companies expand their games into other genres, like card games, and RPGs.

For the most part it appears that Games Workshop just licenses its IP to 3rd parties who develop these other games.

If they collapse, GW has already made its money and can rent out its IPs to another company waiting in wings.

I really don’t think there’s much chance of GW going under, if they stick to their ongoing “don’t borrow to expand” model.

As the 2008 Financial Collapse showed in the UK, its borrowing to expand that tends to do for you. You can still be nominally profitable, but the second you can’t service your debts, that’s when Bankruptcy comes a-knocking. And it needn’t be a long term hiccup either.

That’s what did for many companies. Sharp, unexpected downturn in income, can’t pay off their scheduled debts, and boom, they’re gone, when the prevailing market attitude is No More Lending.

We’ve also seen GW dedicated to constantly monitoring store performance. If a store just isn’t working out? It’s gone. Not in a knee-jerk way, as it can be the staff that aren’t a good fit, or a poor location in a town. But if it can’t pay for itself, they don’t keep it around for terribly long.

Now, that’s not nice if you happen to be the manager trying their best of course. But it is a sensibly pragmatic approach.


Where I think modern GW has wised up is appreciating its Store Model doesn’t necessarily work everywhere. They’ll give it the old college try, yes. But when it doesn’t work out? They don’t keep throwing good money after bad, instead relying on FLGS. And even try adapting it to local preferences and that. Which I think is a Post-Kirby thing, but don’t quote me on that.