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 Crimson wrote:
But this does not show that mutation is any more likely on a successor chapter. It is just that those few peculiar cases are worth mentioning whilst the hundreds of chapters with perfectly functioning geneseed are not. Besides, the parent chapter geneseed has mutated as well. Before the Primaris project a lot of first founding chapters had malfunction in their geneseed. All the organs did not function, for example over the millennia Imperial Fists had lost the Betcher's Gland, and the Sus-an Membrane. And as these ceased to function sometime over the ten millennia, it is perfectly possible that there are IF successor that split before they were lost, which still had these organs.

Right, but the point is that it seems associated by Chapter. That is what I was responding to, the idea that geneseed "knows" what chapter it is in.

The Flame Falcons all began catching on fire, something no other Chapter of their lineage (nor Chapter at all) has been known to experience. I don't know what the in-universe mechanism is, but there seems to be something that sees a flaw appear in specific chapters of a particular lineage, spread through the entirety of that Chapter, and appear nowhere else, hemmed in only by that particular barrier despite geneseed only being transferred vertically (ie, there should be no direct way for a mutation to spread from a Marine to another Marine of the same age, only from a Marine to a future Marine set to inherit his geneseed). It should make transmitting the mutation to the whole chapter impossible, and yet it affects all of them regardless.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
But this does not show that mutation is any more likely on a successor chapter. It is just that those few peculiar cases are worth mentioning whilst the hundreds of chapters with perfectly functioning geneseed are not. Besides, the parent chapter geneseed has mutated as well. Before the Primaris project a lot of first founding chapters had malfunction in their geneseed. All the organs did not function, for example over the millennia Imperial Fists had lost the Betcher's Gland, and the Sus-an Membrane. And as these ceased to function sometime over the ten millennia, it is perfectly possible that there are IF successor that split before they were lost, which still had these organs.

Right, but the point is that it seems associated by Chapter. That is what I was responding to, the idea that geneseed "knows" what chapter it is in.

The Flame Falcons all began catching on fire, something no other Chapter of their lineage (nor Chapter at all) has been known to experience. I don't know what the in-universe mechanism is, but there seems to be something that sees a flaw appear in specific chapters of a particular lineage, spread through the entirety of that Chapter, and appear nowhere else, hemmed in only by that particular barrier despite geneseed only being transferred vertically (ie, there should be no direct way for a mutation to spread from a Marine to another Marine of the same age, only from a Marine to a future Marine set to inherit his geneseed). It should make transmitting the mutation to the whole chapter impossible, and yet it affects all of them regardless.

Ah I see. It must be that the mutation occurs in earlier stage, and remains dormant, and then the geneseed gets copied and copied again, until a majority of that chapter carries that mutated geneseed. But if the chapter's geneseed is not used for creating another chapter during that dormancy, the mutation remains contained in that chapter. But it certainly is rather strange that an entire chapter would become afflicted that way.

And of course many of these unusual chapters, such as Flame Falcons and Black Dragons, are not result of a random mutation, but rather the condition is a result of intentional tampering of the geneseed. Both are 21st ("Cursed") founding chapters with experimental geneseed, thus it makes sense that the whole chapter would be affected. Granted, spontaneous combustion sounds like a hella unlikely genetherapy flaw!

I would guess that in practice GW just thought of a chapter like a reproductively isolated population of animals and forgot that space marines don't have any sort of genetic interchange with each other.

Unless they do, through psychic mumbo jumbo? The death of Sanguinius caused all geneseed derived from him to retroactively mutate, so the exact rules are fuzzy. If mere proximity to a mutation can cause it to replicate itself in similar geneseed that would explain the outcome (and I guess explain why space marines are so afraid of mutation).

Oh yes, from a Doylist perspective this is obviously just a desire to make each chapter be strongly themed and carrying it all the way to dramatic physical traits.

The mystery is purely Watsonian. The Cursed Founding is suspected to be the result of tampering (though as Crimson rightly noted, a whole chapter catching on fire - fire that only hurts enemies rather than themselves, no less - is a rather extreme alteration) but non-Cursed chapters with other extreme afflictions contained only to them also known, like the Excoriators.


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 Orkeosaurus wrote:
Unless they do, through psychic mumbo jumbo? The death of Sanguinius caused all geneseed derived from him to retroactively mutate, so the exact rules are fuzzy. If mere proximity to a mutation can cause it to replicate itself in similar geneseed that would explain the outcome (and I guess explain why space marines are so afraid of mutation).

In this particular instance, keep in mind that Primarchs are all fundamentally Warp creatures at least on some level which results in all manner of strange abilities. This in mind, it makes sense that their death would afflict those genetically linked to them. Omegon could also sense the death of Alpharius from a vast distance, without even being told, and the Iron Hands were driven to all manner of mania at the loss of Ferrus.

It's interesting to think about what sort of traits would be selected for in geneseed over time.

Geneseed is basically a parasitic organism that subverts the reproduction of it's host to reproduce itself. Once implanted, the host is dead in evolutionary terms, but through harvest and implantation the geneseed propagates itself.

Obviously, the most useful and selected for mutations would not have much to do with the marines, but with the geneseed itself - you'd want geneseed that can survive for a decently long time in a dead marine and that is easily transplanted into a wide variety of hosts. You can see with the bigger chapters in the Heresy that the geneseed that started with these traits is already the most abundant, and it explains why Ultramarine geneseed is so common - it has mutations that make it stable for harvest and transfer.

But outside of that sort of thing, what sort of mutations that impact the Marines themselves would be useful? Parasites in nature sometimes modify the behaviour of their hosts to make them better at reproducing the parasite - the shrimp gammerus is compelled to swim in circles at the top of the water, making it more likely to be eaten by the birds which are it's secondary host.

What would make geneseed more likely to be preserved? Heroism? But there's a trade off because extremely risky behaviour might destroy the geneseed. Could the behaviour influences be so subtle they'd influence heroic and high status behaviour (making the marines take risks to ensure the geneseed was retrieved) while also avoiding dangerous that might destroy the geneseed like incineration? A propensity to heroic duels rather than rushing a plasma cannon emplacement?

Instead of nature vs nurture, we have parasitical influence vs hypnoindoctrination.

We're gonna need more funding from the medical council, I'm pretty sure

Hahahah! I love this sort of stuff. I also love that 40K is messy enough to allow for this kind of speculation.

It definitely doesn’t help that we don’t really know what Geneseed actually is. Oh, we know what it does and what it’s then used for. But not what it is, nor how it was originally created.

And as with all things Astartes, the entire project being an emergency bodge job from the leftovers of the Primarch project? We can’t even say that what it turned out to be is what the original plan was.

It could be that the Geneseed was, originally, be all and end all of creating an Astartes. Take your young boy, implant the Geneseed, and watch it essentially re-write the DNA and that, growing the organs as it goes. Like a second gestation. Maybe the recipient would be put in suspended animation, or just sort of kick about training whilst the magic was worked.

Only speculation of course, but I can see it being that in an Ideal World.

Likewise perhaps it was originally intended that the Geneseed would continuously regrow throughout a Marine’s life. So that, given a few generations? Colossal stocks would be held, neatly insulating any Legion from even the most horrific losses. And indeed allowing extensive recruitment on an ongoing basis.

In-universe, there are only three beings that might know for sure. The Emperor, most definitely. Cawl? Well…possibly. It of course depends upon how extensive the lab notes he inherited are, and whether they extend beyond the Bodge Job. Fabius Bile? Ehhhhh….honestly not sure. He’s a clever cookie, and has been fiddling a bit longer than Cawl. But so far as I know, has never had access to the lab notes. Which could, arguably, mean his work is more deductive, well educated guesses based on century upon century of study.