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Thanks for posting that Killkrazy,

I'm still meh about the model but would buy it in plastic if they were jetbikes. Having a FA choice or troop choice that can boost 24" getting 3+ coversaves for a rapid re-deployment is very much how I view the Tau being philosophically.

If the unit is troops then keep the pulse rifles.

If its a FA then I could see the bikes having a single rail rifle if the squad size is kept to 6 or under.

I don't know what squad upgrades that the unit would get unless it was the markersystem. But, I'd hope that came included as part of the squad.

Kilkrazy wrote:This is a Tetra.



http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/tetra.htm

It's got two pulse rifles under the nose and a markerlight on top of the roof/tail bit. This would probably work as a twin-linked pulse rifle, which doesn't strike me as being a very useful armament for a vehicle, but would distinguish it from a suit. The markerlight would need to be fire on the move. I could see it rolled out as a kind of heavy bike in squadrons of 1-5. Depending on point value, it could replace Pathfinders.

I think it's a nice looking vehicle and would make a great polystyrene kit. The Forge World cost is £30 for two resin kits.

Thanks heaps Kilkrazy for the Tetra picture. Your my new Tau friend *hi fives kilkrazy* ^_^

I could see the markerlight working with the position and setup.

Hmmm... focusedfire, your right. It's not a good looking model. I would prefer the drawn up one from eailer up - https://share.acrobat.com/adc/adc.do?docid=8c308186-dbfd-11dc-a7df-2743035249fa

focusedfire wrote:
As to the jetbike and what I think it will be:

WS2 BS4 S3 T3(4) W1* A1 I2 Ld8 Sv 3+
Unit type: Jetbike(Not the eldar one)
Weapons: Twin-link Pulse rifles*
Squad size: 6-12*

* If the bikes end up being 2-man Tetra types then the bikes will have 2 wounds, a secondary markerlight weapon and the unit size will be 3-6.

I'd love it if they got rail rifles but if GW didn't take the common sense approach and allow stealth teams to take the rifle drones when they introduced them. Then I don't think there is anyway that a Jetbike with the Eldar move 12" and always assualt any direction 6" will evr happen.

If the bikes only have pulse rifles they never will get used. The tau need more S5 AP5 shots in the army like they need a fifth finger. If anything give them burst cannons and allow for better weapon upgrades. Thanks to the prevaliance of pulse rifles, pulse carbines, SMS systems, and burst cannons, the bikes need to carry something different. Heavy 2 ion cannons would be uber cool (half range of course because they are mounted on bikes).

If the bikes are troops and not overly expensive they'd be very useful with the pule weaponry. The ability to rapidly redeploy and to laydown accurate S5 fire should not be underestimated.

I, also, believe that if the Tau get jetbikes that GW will not let them out gun the pirahnas. (A moment of pleading to the game designers)Please, Let the Tau get Fusion Cannons as options for the pirahnas and other tanks. Also, please let the devilfish get the long barreled burstcannon with it 36" range and strength 6 ap 4 goodness.

focusedfire wrote:If the bikes are troops and not overly expensive they'd be very useful with the pule weaponry. The ability to rapidly redeploy and to laydown accurate S5 fire should not be underestimated.

I, also, believe that if the Tau get jetbikes that GW will not let them out gun the pirahnas. (A moment of pleading to the game designers)Please, Let the Tau get Fusion Cannons as options for the pirahnas and other tanks. Also, please let the devilfish get the long barreled burstcannon with it 36" range and strength 6 ap 4 goodness.

Really? At what point costs, 25 points each, 150 points for 6? You think 6 S5 shots are going to matter? The only things at AP5 is all that useful at killing like to bring 20 or so of their buddies to the party. Suddenly you wish you could trade those 6 shots in for the 15 shots from an equal points of fire warriors.

The only advantages they being troops is the obvious doesn't take up a fast/elite slot (which is huge) and the last turn objective grab run. And with random game length, its not all that great when they get there and your opponent magically has another turn to kill them. Remember, these are not SM bikers. T4 is not T5, LD 8 is not a sure thing against any sort of return fire moral check and or tankshock. Worse, they will still drop like flies if anything charges them.

Making them troops puts a huge target on their heads. Most things (with the obvious exception of meltas) that can take out 3+ armor save can also take them down at range equal to or greater than the 30" of the pulse rifle. Add in the larger size that most bike models are and the new TLOS rules, these guys won't be around very long.


As for the Pirahna, I expect that when the Tau get reworked eventually, we can expect possilbly great changes. Just like the IG got a ton of new weaponry, so may the Tau. Our current Pirahna may magically get better weapon options than just our current lowly burst cannon or fusion blaster.

@ Jayden,
Actually, 25 pts for six extra highly mobile markerlights on the field that can move and shoot?

A D**N site better than what we got now. The range 30 always(even when moving) is just icing on the cake.

All that mobility and extra toughness for less than what you buy a Pathfinder team for now.

Just my opinion mind you.

No, they'd get used and the Taus opponents would cry velveeta(cheese)

If they can somehow take markerlights, then their usefulness increases, but they would have to go the attack bike route (in which case they probably wont stay a troop choice) and get a marker light for a secondary weapon. The forgeworld Tetra's have an armor value, thus troop or not makes them automatically non-scoring. And if they stay bikes, alla all other bikes, they wont be getting markerlights.

I also expect Pathfinders to get reworked as well. Too expensive and fragile for how things work in 5th ed.

Thats what would make it distinctive enough to be Tau.

GW changing the FW stats is not that unheard of. The gundrones used to not deploy at the same time in the old FW pirahna rules.

The Tau don't really need another skimmer but making themthe Tau equivalent to the Eldar Guardian jetbikes wold be cool.

A two man team would could fire both or a single man team could/would if the bikes had access to crisis suit multi-trackers(Making the squad even more Tau like.

Hmm... so a 2 man jet-bike using tau jet-pack rules with twin-linked pluse rifles and markerlight. Seems to fit a nice Tau niche very nicely. Needs to be a tad more costly than pathfinders less no one would take them now, wouldn't they?

Wait... scrach what i said. Just read the rest of the post ;p

Focusedfire is right... the tau DON'T need another skimmer (we got tons already, thanks)

@Jayden63, not just pathfinders need a rework. Fire warriors need some survivability fix as well. Kroot need to get their rules fixed and with at least I4

Heh... We also can't forget the focus with apoc rules these days. Every man and his dog love to field those crazy super weapons. Other than the stuipd dino thingy, what else we got?

The Tiger Shark, Barracuda, and the Manta. Tau Apoc heavies come in the form of Flyers.

Though, I wouldn't mind it if they made a superheavy version of the hammer head with twin-linked heavy railguns

Superscope wrote:

Railguns wrote:Manta. Carries the whole hunter cadre.


I don't have a problem with the jetbike idea proposed. As it is the sniper drone team may be overcosted but an ultra-mobile version with twin-linked and a higher bs option should cost about the same(or slightly more) if it doesn't get the stealth protection.

Your right about the sniper drone team being overcosted, but stealth protection with them mean little.

The Stealth generator forces the shooting unit to take a night fighting test which as we all know is 2d6x3. Sadly a stealth generator is hardly useful in most times it's been used. With that roll people can see between 9" and 54" which more than 50% of the time it's enough for pretty much any unit to see and fire basic weapons at them (24" for ya boltgun). Sure, it could save you from some really far ranged weapons, but considering that the USER's weapons are often gimped by their own range restriction (12 or 18 for stealth suit, 36" for sniper drones) and thanks to everything able to move futher than before thanks to running the stealth generator has lost alot of appeal...

If stealth generators were to be "useful" they need to be 2d6x2, not 2d6x3. Oh, and the stealth generators bonus of "counting as in cover" doesn't work if enemies use frag genrades.. which i believe is pretty much becoming standardized for each army.

I seem to recall back in 4th edition that stealthsuits were great because they could fire at 18 inches then jump back six, putting them at about 24 and thusly enemy units had about a 50% chance to see them at all. Has this changed in 5th? I would expect a unit that fires 12" even farther out would definitely ttake advantage of stealth.

Sniper drones can't shoot and move since they're not Jetpacks, they're Infantry (same as the controller). And, if the unit takes 4 wounds, you have to put one on the controller, which means it's a 50/50 that the whole unit goes away - if a drone controller is killed, all drones assigned to him are also removed.

The problem is that sniper drone teams are 80 points, or about the cost of two crisis suits or three stealth suits. They're not horrible on their stats, which are OK, but they're bad based on point cost and taking up a valuable Heavy Support choice.

They can work, and some people swear by them. But, they're not OMG great. Also, with the increase in 4+ cover saves in Fifth, the AP3 is not nearly as attractive as it was in fourth.

I'm not advocating sniper teams, I know they suck. I'd rather they act like detachments that deploy in support of Firewarrior teams as one large troops choice that acts as two units.(and cost less points) They don't offer any real competition to Broadsides or Hammerheads so fit them where they work best.

I think Sniper Drones work well at low-points games. They can give you a lot of good AP3 shots for cheaper than a Hammerhead, and their stealth fields make it hard for them to get shot at.

It's the only unit that stealth fields work in full effect, mainly because it weapon is at a good range unlike stealth suits

Said it before and will again. Sniper drones need to be controlled by a stealth suit so they have mobility.

The sniper teams work almost OK but their inability to move and fire kills it for me.

Part of this reason is I spend a lot of time agains armies that move 12" and still shoot. SM/BT landspeeders with their scout move+12"move means that they can usually see the snipers in first turn.

Now with stealthsuits they could be placed furthe back and moved forward and on some crazy missions I might deep strike them.

I think the mobile rail-rifle platform may be best served with the pathfinder-bike and not drones. The concept of sniper drones is a solid one; it just isn't implemented well.

I'm not totally familiar with the Tau codex, but I've played games with Tau players. I like the fact that they're strictly shooty, but I feel that with all their firepower (S5 basic battle rifle) that the basic Firewarrior squads are underpowered due to their lack of CC abilities. I know that's why the Kroot are there. Being as how I always envisioned Tau tactics, what if you had the option to not take kroot and still survive assaults? I'm not talking about giving them a better WS, but rather giving the fully upgraded leader an ability option that allowed the stand and fire rule regardless. It's a sick rule, so it would have to be somewhat costly, and it doesn't give FW's any capabilites for their own assault phases. But defensively speaking it would make other units think twice before assaulting them head on. Allow them to rapid fire so they all basically get two WS3 S5 attacks ONCE when assaulted. After the FW unit is locked in CC they lose this ability so they're still vulnerable to secondary assaults. Opponents can change tactics to negate this too by assualting first with cheap units to soak the casualties, and then assaulting with more specialized units after they're engaged.
You have to pay for it, it can be worked around by other players, and it keeps the FW's tactical role in the back field the same. I like the idea.

In general, they need to lose Drone Controllers and just have Drones assigned to the unit. That way, you don't have to take off 20-60 extra points for losing one model. I'd be okay with having drones removed if all 'tau' models in the unit are gone, but I don't think it's game breaking if the drones stick around (but are maybe only Ld 5 or 6). I'd also be okay if drones had a 'mindlock' rule, maybe they stay Ld 7 but need to pass a Ld test if there are no Tau in the unit.

For Sniper Drone teams, just change it to be 1-3 controllers in the unit, and for each controller, the unit can have up to 3 sniper drones added for +X points. You'd have a total unit size of up to 3 controllers and 9 drones.

I don't know about that. Even then as a HS choice its not better or as good as the other options.

I really feel, especially with whats coming out for the IG, that the codex emphasis will be on making the army more of what it currently is starting first at the troop level and working up.

This would mean manuveable shootiness. This is what makes me think of a jetbike scoring unit.

It's funny that after playing both Tau and Eldar how much The mechdar army plays like the tau used too. The tactics with the waveserpents and dire avengers plays just like fish of fury. Fire Prisms are very close to Hammerheads. Its like Tau guns are 1 point stronger and the army is one step slower than the Eldar. The Tau just don't have the strong midrange weaponry of the Eldar. So Fire Warrior jetbikes tie in with the sorta like Eldar theme, IMO.

Its also funny how you can pick up clues just from reading the new BRB rules on Jet-packs.
Marker lights will be almost a guaranteed option if not standard. I also see the possibility of the rail rifles coming in as an option just due to the amount of ap3 goodness GW is handing out in 5th ed.

Considering that about 1/2 of the Tau army units that are used in the average game (XV8,XV25, drone sqauds) have relentless, perhaps we will see alot more heavy weapons applied to them?

I've came up with a brain-storm btw ^_^

XV25 Stealth suits - Option to switch ALL burst cannons for fusion blasters, not just every 1 in 3, with a free emp grenade for the XV25 shas'uve, Stealth Generator rolling rule is now 2d6x2. That would give them great flexability compaired to the poor limitations now. From what i've seen, almost everyone fields a stealth suit unit with 6 burst cannons. >.>

XV8 Crisis suits - Ability to count twin-linked weapons as a single weapon (mainly because the costs of some of the crisis weapons are way too pricey, plasma rifle for example) and can be weilded in a way the Forge World Tau hero can. Grenade launcher (mini frag-projector) weapon option (Same as the IG version, twin linkable)

XV88 Broadside suits - Ability to switch to twin-linked plasma rifles at no cost.

Fire Warrior teams - Photon Grenades for free (optional, player may choose NOT to take them if he/she wishs), 1+ BS

Kroot Carinvor Sqauds - Fieldcraft removed, Given Stealth, move thu cover and Fleet. Kroot gain I4 (Kroot are NOT standing melee troops btw)

Pathfinder teams - May take Sinper drones (1-2), 1+BS, removed the requirement for a devilfish troop transport.

Hammerhead gunship - Slight point cost reduction

Skyray gunship - Slight point cost reduction

Devilfish Troop Transport - Slight point cost reduction, may be a dedicated transport to a unit.

Shield Drones - cost increased, yeilds the unit attached to the drone a 4+ invunable save however if wounds are scored on the unit the drones MUST take the wounds first. (Gives infanty units a chance to shoot/fight before getting shot to peices on turn 1-2)

Etheral - Bodyguard unit no longer costs extra, gains 1+BS and +1T, however the unit no longer counts as scoring.

Commander Farsight - XV8 Suits count as scorable units and may also be taken as a troop choice. Removed prefered enemy - orks. All units gain +1WS, +1T and +1I. Can not take any non-tau unit (Kroot, vespid) or etherals. May take crisis teams in 1-5 instead of 1-3. Bodyguard unit size unchanged. May take Power Blades with crisis suits (Farsight's crisis teams only weapon ^_^). Breakaway faction rules still apply. Cost increased.

Aun'va, master of the undying spirit - 2 Etheral Bodyguards are also reinforced with a elite fire warrior team of 24 with 1+ BS over the norm. Aun'va, in the shooting phase, may give a "Empowering Speech" to a single unit(Not his own!) within line of sight (he uses the unit's comm link to speak with them if the unit is really far). Til the start of the player's next turn, the unit's armor saves become invunable saves, gain stubbon USR and +1 to all stats other than wounds. Paradox staff rules unchanged. Cost greatly increased.

Commander Shadowsun - Given a twin-linked missile pod with a advanced multi-tracker/target lock setup (Ability to fire 3 weapons a turn, each at different targets). Drone options unchanged. Command-link drone range is now 24". Stealth generator rolling is now 2d6x2. Cost increased

Major idea for a Tau titan btw ^_^

Fluff first up

"The tau empire has expanded greatly over the last short milenina, however when the imperium of man deployed large super-heavy units the tau had been dumnfound at such overwheilming power. While the fire caste, with assistance of the air caste, managed to defeat such giants but at great costs. After several stealth teams attempts at recovering infomation, they learnt that the greatest of these weapons the imperium fielded was a huge walker called a "Titan". The earth caste, having been transmitted this infomation, began designs of a titan for the greater good. Incorperating the basic idea of many different types and variants of suits, the XV100 "Catastrophe" was born. A Giant 4 legged walker. The XV100 is to be used on battlefields with prolong engagement (50 to 150 days, the tau can not field the tactic of attriction) where any type of static base was ineffective. Because of this, the XV100 is used as a large mobile base with overwhelming firepower to devestate incoming targets with added light production abilities to repair the many suits of the tau empire and to build many small arms for the fire caste"

XV100 "Catastrophe" moblie base titan - 650 points

Structure points - 3

BS - 4

AV 14 / 14 / 11

Crew - 5 fire caste pilots, 15 earth caste engineers and 6 fire caste medics

Transport - May Hold upto 6 XV suits, or 24 normal passangers

Hatches - A single large door on the rear for XV suits to enter and deploy.

Comes with Transport bay, Battlefield Engineering bay, a twin-linked "Rail Devestator" ( 140" range, Str D, ap 1, Heavy 2) and 6 long barrelled burst cannons (3 mounted on the left and right sides each)


You may replace both the transport bay and the battlefield engineering bay for a Plasma Shield Generator for 50 pts

You may replace the the following with it's counterpart listed below at no cost.

Battlefield Engineering bay <--> Drone bay
Transport bay <--> Multi-Seeker missile Launchers
Twin-Linked Rail Devestator <--> Fusion Devestator.


Special rule - Battlefield repair - During the movement phase, any tau unit with a XV suit inside the XV100 may attempt a repair on a roll of a 4+, fixing damage on the suit while the pilot receves fast treament for any injuries. A sucessive repair roll restores 1 wound. The suit then may deploy from the XV100 but will be unable to move (this result is regardless if the unit passed or failed, he may still make his assasult move if the model is equipped with a jetpack however)

Upgrades and features

Drone bay - The Engineering bay's space is used to hold a bay of deployable and rebuildable drones. At the start of each turn, roll a die. On a 3+ you may deploy a gun drone sqaud of 8 models on the left or right of the XV100 (the drone hatches are under the XV100's body).

Mutli-seeker missle launchers - A Interior bay of Seeker missiles with missile launching ports set on the top of the XV100. The Multi-Seeker missile Launcher counts as a normal seeker missile using the following profile (str 7, ap 4, Heavy 6) and is fired by the used of a markerlight. The missile bay holds 12 missiles at the start of the battle and will restock 1 added missile at the start of your turn (To the max of 12)

Plasma Shield Generator - A massive Plasma powered reactor and reflector generator is installed into the XV100. This grants the XV100 a Void shield.

Fusion Devestator - A fusion blaster, just on a much larger scale. This weapon basicly creates a mini-sun. Apon inpacting the ground, it will detonate with tremendous force and range. (72" range, str 8, ap 2)


And That's it for now, tell me what you all think (I know a few things need fixing, need some constructive input)

okay, I'm coming in on this late... and I really don't feel like backtracking 10 pages. in general does the thread think tau need fixing? if yes, what are the MAIN reasons people are stating.

*sigh*... lazy bugger...

yea, Tau do need fixing. I will give ya MANY reasons ^_^

- Tau gunline tactic is extremely unreliable in 5e
- Kroot get slaughtered before they can get their job done, they need I4
- Tau troops have extremely poor survivability, this doesn't help in 5e as assasult troops can run right up and kick the crap out of them
- Tau overall for a shooting based army are inacurrate
- Tau Hero units are pretty much gak. Space pope can't do anything but hover on the spot while farsight is gimped to hell with only able to take 1/2 of the tau army as 0-1. Shadowsun is ok, but a few tweaks here and their...
- Tau lack blast template weapons
- Tau fire warriors are overpriced
- Tau crisis suits JSJ tactic is pretty much gak now thanks to "true line of sight"
- Tau Stealth suits have slowed weapons for their job
- Vespid........ need i say more?
- Tau lack a "Real" Super-Heavy for apoc. We got a kroot super-heavy and several tau air units but no giant tank or walker?
- Deep Striking enemies pretty much destroy tau, hell a strong wind could most likely inflict alot of damage..
- Our Railguns don't do enough damage damn it!!!! RAWRARAWR1111111oneeleventyone11!!! XD

I Like the Tau, alot. In fact I have never, ever achieved more than a tie against them. Mayber the Tau players in my area are amazing gods of 40k but I doubt it. You make a couple of the classic arguments that are pure crap, and some good ones too. When they do "fix" Tau, I will probably cry with nerdrage, and so will you. F'ing GW.


++Quoted from superscope++
++yea, Tau do need fixing. I will give ya MANY reasons ^_^++

++- Tau gunline tactic is extremely unreliable in 5e++

Yeah, I'd agree that Tau as "gunline" isn't the strongest, but then neither is IG. They both shoot the crap out of their targets (at different ranges for the high yield killing) but neither has a decent BS. Tau really should have a 4, but I question weather it's a want or need. if fire warriors had bs4 they would cost as much as space marines and deservedly so. bs4 s5 30" rapid fire guns with a 4+ save?! no. not for under 14pts at the very lowest.

++- Kroot get slaughtered before they can get their job done, they need I4

I liove kroot. If they were I4 they would be nasty as hell. they pwn spess marines as is if they have a full squad. I know it's more spendy but you are paying for the utility to have cc (that can outflank, right?) in a shooty army.

++- Tau troops have extremely poor survivability, this doesn't help in 5e as assasult troops can run right up and kick the crap out of them++

Their troops SHOULD have poor surviveability in CC, they are shooters. you want marine saves or ws3? dedicated assault troops will always wipe out dedicated shooty troops. what tau NEED... I'll get to that at the end.

++ - Tau overall for a shooting based army are inacurrate++

I get outshot by good tau players, tau's strength is flexability not volume. The troops have 30" range and devilfish so they can GTFO when baddies get close.

++- Tau Hero units are pretty much gak. Space pope can't do anything but hover on the spot while farsight is gimped to hell with only able to take 1/2 of the tau army as 0-1. Shadowsun is ok, but a few tweaks here and their...++

Your heroes do suck! OMG

++- Tau lack blast template weapons++

You have the hammer-thing template. You are not IG. If tau had blast templates they would be an improved IG (3rd ed) in every way

++ - Tau fire warriors are overpriced++

Maybe a little, but they s5 guns, a 30" range and a 4+ save. Did you expect 8pts?

++- Tau crisis suits JSJ tactic is pretty much gak now thanks to "true line of sight"++

No, just no. They simply used to abuse the rules. Now THEY HAVE BEEN FIXED.

++- Tau Stealth suits have slowed weapons for their job++

Great drop troops for anti tank duties... not that tau need it. I will use stealth suits against guard players spamming LRBT's very soon. (I borrow tau armies alot, they are fun) they are good against non meq armies, right?

++ - Vespid........ need i say more?++

vespids... I have a friend (a tournament player and DAMN solid with tau) who swears by them against some army types. I dunno, their statline is gak and I don't know how to make em useful.

++- Tau lack a "Real" Super-Heavy for apoc. We got a kroot super-heavy and several tau air units but no giant tank or walker?

they do. but if you have the cash you have an excuse to buy a manta! If I owned tau I'd have the excuse

++- Deep Striking enemies pretty much destroy tau, hell a strong wind could most likely inflict alot of damage..

D/S foes are jerks. no real way around that. damn that Zagstruck! Damn those Vanguard Vets, too! just shoot em' when they leave CC, that's what I do... I usually short 3-400 points worth of tanks afterwards though.

++- Our Railguns don't do enough damage damn it!!!! RAWRARAWR1111111oneeleventyone11!!! XD

Agreed! they should have the melta property!


I think that tau need the ability to upgrade the weapons in their squads, and they need it badly. They could also use a good tarpit unit. that would buy them time to get in their fish and swim to another place to shoot from. aside from that we agree on the special dudes. I bet that vespids will be amazing in the next iteration of the tau book, but they aren't going to bump the BS and they aren't going to bump the CC much either. Maybe I'm off base because I can never beat tau with an all-comers list (they are my achilles heel) but I don't know any tau players who want the book to change. most of them are fearing a nerf hammer in my area.

@ Superscope,

I like your enthusiasm but will disagree on some of your Tau fixing analysis. If you don't mind, with the OPs permission, I'd like to open a debate on the strengths and weakness in hopes that we may find the areas that really need addressing with the Tau. If this becomes a problem I'll be happy to move the discussion to another thread.

I'd first like to give my responses to your thoughts on what needs fixing and then express why I think such.

Then I'd like your rebuttal, seeing things through others thoughts helps gain insight to the bigger picture.

So now I'll begin:

IMHO
1)I disagree about the gunlines. Yes gunline tactics are unreliable as are many other builds. I think the problem here is that the Tau were in concept never intended for a truly static fire base. They were intended to appear to be static as a means of a lure. Now this still works fairly well but I feel the fundamental problem is that the basic Tau infantry lack the mobility they need to fight their high-tech guerilla warfare. A large part of this problem came in the form of the 5th ed run and the coversave rules that effectively halved the shooting effectiveness of the basic fire warrior against basic troops.

2)I'm unsure with giving kroot I4. Kroot are mostly fine just as they are statswise. If they are getting slaughtered I usually find that they are not being used as designed. I don't care for this current tourny tactic of making them 10 man squads. They are meant to be a mini-horde and are most effective as such(Leadership/moral tests). It seems that a lot of poeple don't use the hounds because it breaks the 10 model unit tourny rule, or they don't shoot, or makes the squad have to large a footprint.
They are I5 S4 with 2 attacks without assaulting and only cost 6pts. Try running the unit at 17-20 models strong, 6-8 of them are hounds, use cover and look at what your opponent has in his army. If he has a bunch of flamers then use outflank if your going second(something I often opt to do), going first then infiltrate to support a pathfinder squad or something creative that doesn't just hand them to your opponent. When your squad comes under a shooting attack, put the wounds on the regular kroot first. In hand to hand the hounds normally go first, so take the wounds on them after they swing.

The fixes for the Kroot I would suggest are first a 1pt price drop and rudimentry charge grenade that would help them in HTH. Second, fix their fieldcraft rules by giving them USR move/shoot through cover. Third, for 21+ points the shaper better give them furious assault. The shapers lack of anything other that a +1 leadership bump is laughable.

3)I disagree about Tau survivability. The Tau had very good survivability before their guns were wimped out by the coversaves and the run rule. A 4+ armour save is still pretty good for the basic foot soldier. The real weakness here is the lack of variety and the lack of mobility for the Tau infantry. I've suggested before the idea of gundrones moving to troops to help these two issues. Any other help for the Tau basic infantry needs to come from the rest of the army. I can see and have had ideas about differnet things but really feel tha they are good as they are. Maybe a smallpoints shift, include grenades, weapons profile tweek that slows an enemy down, or upgrade special weapon drones as elective equipment. But nothing over the top, just refining.

4) I can see and agree with why you feel the way you do about the Tau Ballistic Skill. I just don't think it's going to improve until they stop trying to ram underpowered, overcosted, illogical markerlights as the defining theme for the Tau down our throats. Now if they fixed the underpowered and illogical, then refined the markerlight rules they'd be worth the points. The underpowered and illogical part is, "Why can only one squad see a marker light hit?". Refine the rules to where they have a LIMITED armywide effect for the marker counter expended, make all markers networked and I'd be happy to pay 15-20pts for each.

5)I agree about the Tau Special charcters. Yes, the Tau Special characters are very special in a little yellow bus kinda way. Thing is, it seems that the designers think a Tau superhero is kinda against the concept of the army. I think that if they are good enough to work their way up through the ranks, then their generals should be fairly nasty. I've proposed a few ideas before and will again if someone asks. I feel that the Tau will keep some existing leaders with improvements and will get an improved Ahngkor Prok for the kroot, A vespid special character, and I hope Aun'shi returns with some improvements.

6) I disagree about the Blast weapons. There aren't a lot of blast weapons in the Tau and it needs to stay that way unless everyone thinks they are the Imperium. This is not a big deal for the Tau. The Tau are about precise strikes as opposed to collateral damage. I see them with maybe a total of 3-4 blast weapons max, and that the markers remove a scatterdie or allow a reroll on blast weapons. Nothing more than that or you dilute the Flavor of the Tau. Now, I do see them getting higher rates of fire on a lot of their weapons.

7) I'm on the fence about the pricing. Fire warriors are ok for now in pricing. But with the way 5thed is going in order to keep up they'll probably give them photons and maybe the bonding knife for free. If they improve BS or weapon profile expect the basic Tau fire warrior to clock in at around 12pts each. Not a mathhammered number but feels right from play experience.

8)I completely disagree with your JSJ analysis. JSJ still rocks. You may just have to wait for true LOS blocking terrain in your area. I, honestly have to admit that my suits get shot up less now that they can park inside a building next to a wall and not worry about the area terrain cheese where a flamer shoots through a solid wall.
The problem I see with the crisis suits is unit size. Two suits can handle the same job that three do. This is good for leaving a smaller footprint for blast weapons but doesn't dish out enough meq killing firepower to make up for the Fire Warrior basic infaantries lack of organic fire support. I would suggest squads of 5 but who could afford it in their lists. I see the need for increased firepower per suit instead. I think drop the twin-linking, make the multitracker fire all weapons system, and making targeting arrays standard would probably do the trick.

9) I disagree about the Stealthsuit weapons but do agree about changing how the squads get armed. Stealthsuits, the burst cannon is ok but the optional fusion blaster has a problem as does the stealthfields visibility range. The unit would be worth it if they restructured the way the squad is loaded out or dropped the spotting distance. I really see the stealth teams dropping down to only 3 man squads but they each take an identical weapon. 3 burstcannons or 3 fusion blasters. I'd be a lot more likely to deepstrike or infiltrate those configurations. The current way of 5-6 stealths for 2 fusion blasters just costs to much. Would still be nice if the stealth field dropped to 2D6x2 spotting like the harlies with shadowseer.

10) Maybe there will be good news about the Vespids in the next codex. I was actually able to make the Vespids work in 4th ed. They weren't optimal but were ok. I've heard rumors about them either getting rending or a poison attack in hth in the next codex. That is only a rumour but would make them viable in 5th ed as long as the points don't go over 18-20.

11) The Tau do have a super heavy. Its called a tiger shark and can be equipped with Titan-killer heavy railguns. I wouldn't hold my breath for a superheavy walker as it just doesn't fit the Tau theme. Anything larger than a broadside is a skimmer or flyer in a Tau army(Not kroot). Not dicounting the Idea of new alien allies that might have a super-walker but just don't see the Tau getting one before......say the Orca dropship getts fitted with a twin railgun turret.

12) I agree about the amount of heavy weapons fire. I think if the broadsides go from twin-link to twinshot that would just about do the trick. I think making the Railgun on the hammerhead a Heavy2 or release a new hammermead with twin weapon mounts for the Ion cannon and Railgun would be nice. They will probably just give us Hammerhaed squadrons instead, though.


Now to recap the high points of what I feel needs reworking, updating, or what was missed.

A)Tau mobility has taken a hit and needs improvement. Especially in the troops area of the FOC. Also their should be no static infantry held heavy weapons. This is completely counter to Tau Tactical philosophy. The only exception to this might be the rail rifle if used as in an Ethereals bodyguard.

B)Tau fire power is about half of what it was. Looking at the trick they are using to up the IG (almost doubling)firepower. I feel the Tau are going to need an effective increase in firepower also. It just needs to happen in a Tau-like way.

C)Tau FOC is in need of restructuring to shift some units where they are needed most. Fast attacks and heavies have to much competition.

D)Markerlights are in desperate need of a rework. Just can't get enough lights in a list without crippling the army.

E)Tau vehicles need more weapon variants

F) The Tau need more history to help define their philosiphy and thus their heros and leaders. This will lead to more effective special charcters. Side note* Make the etherals honorblades +2 strength power weapons or give them a gun to shoot.



Please tell me what you, both, agree and disagree with and your Ideas of what should or probably will happen.

A while back on Warseer I ran some numbers and determined that BS4 fire warriors should be worth about as much as Ethereal bodyguards. Right now 10 points gets you half a hit. At BS4 x points will get you 2/3 hit.

x/(2/3) = 10/(1/2). 4x=30. x is a bit over 13. But that isn't the whole picture. That gives you the same firepower but doesn't help anything else. An equal costing of BS 4 13 point firewarriors dies faster than their BS3 counterpart. Plus some people say fire warriors are overcosted anyway. Drop a point down to 12. This slightly improves Tau firepower per point, but has a couple other interesting effects. First, it hurts the Tau in an attritional shooting match. Each casualty taken robs the Tau of 2/3 of a hit instead of 1/2 as before. Second, it allows the Tau to put more firepower inside a transport. Both are in my opinion in fitting with the Tau design philosophy. Tau are supposed to fail at attrition and do well at mobile shooting.

Speaking as a Guard player who hates the Tau.

stupid focusedfire, politely disagreeing! You know, you need to learn how to troll a Tau thread... J/k, kinda. not really. JERK. (Don't report me)

Yay @ focusedfire ^_^ Strong constructive talk. Lets go my reply

1) True. For some bizzare reason i always like a tau gunline. Perhaps the long guns of the fire warriors remind me of britsh redcoat gunlines in ages past...

2) I always like capping out a sqaud. Perhaps i need to give kroot another shot with some hounds... then again i'm not a lover of the kroot. The Kroot Sharper upgrade (giving furious charge to the unit) would be GREAT!

3) Yeap, your right about that, only 2 weapon choices for fire warriors. Their armor save and T is fine, it's just that most games i play i get blasted to peices buy crazy space marines with frag and krag missiles. I need to move more (Gotta hurry up and build my devilfish)

4) That would set tau up great. Markerlights are the way, if only they just fixed it up. I would be happy to take BS3 if i could field lots of markerlights at a cost effective price. Perhaps they should change markerlight rules to this:

Markerlight - 10 pts

Any enemy unit hit with a markerlight becomes marked.
- Infanty shooting at the marked unit may re-roll failed to hit rolls.
- Vehicles gain +1BS when shooting at the marked unit.
- A Blast weapon's scattered result is halfed, rounded up.

5)Totaly with ya. Personaly, i love the "Special issue" items that let you custom tailor your commander to suit your needs. Have i told you how much i love the failsafe detonator? While yes, i am quite frustrated with the Tau special charcters being utter junk. The tau is about everybody putting aside personal gains for a greater good.

6)Come to think of it, i have to agree with ya.... I've been reading too much of that IG codex fourm stuff ):

7)To make tau more different than other armies, getting a shas'ui in a fire warrior sqaud should grant the bonding knife, while if your sqaud is at least 1/2 armed with pluse carbines you should get grenades for free.

8) Hmmm... i need more cover in my games then... Now about crisis suits, Yeap, multitracker baseline sounds about right, and since that frees up the support slot for their gear they should be able to equip targeting arrays no problems.

9) 3 man stealth teams sound fine to me (Then i can field them for tank hunting duty XD)

10) That would be interesting

11) Ok, so basicly we have flying super-heavies... FUN

12) Yeap, twin-shot sounds right to me as well. Railguns are great but most of the time they suck hard fighting horde armies.

-----------------------

a) Hmmm.... A sqaud armed with railrifles with a attached etheral? *drools at the idea*

b) GW will most likely screw us over sadly.

c) Indeed it would. Pathfinders to troops and have dedicated transports like what space marines do with their rhinos (not taking a FOC slot) should fix fast attack slots. Heavy units will have a problem...

d) Yeap, they are WAY too costly for a static laserpointer (which in the year 40999, you think they would have a insane version of the laser pointers we use?)

e) YES!! Railheads are tired but true... Give us something new and unpredictable ^_^

f) Total support their. Helps bulk out the codex a ton. While i remember the 3rd editon codex had lots of really cool lore in it and yet the 4th editon codex they just cut like... 1/2 of it out... for no reason!

@Raxmei, Thank you for the mathhammered analysis. If you don't mind I'll be quoting your IG viewpoint to others.

@ Superscope, Thanks for the kind words. Nice to know that I have ideas others can relate to.

Now do me a favour and try to pick my suggestions, arguments, and ideas apart a little. Either what might not work, doesn't seem Tau-like, or if there are other things that are a higher priority as to updating/improving.


@Kungfu, Thanks for the laugh,kinda. No snitching here.
As to your analysis of the Tau there are some interesting ideas and I think talking about where we both agree and disagree might provide some useful ideas at least.


As to deep striking armies and how to handle. I've been really messing the marines up if they deep strike against me.

It does get them into the front lines quicker but at the cost of a solid rear defense and mobility. I usually find that by turn 3-4 the board is flip-flopped. I'm in his deployment zone and he's in mine. If there are objectives I put them out in the open so that they can be shot at while sitting on the objectives.

I find that SM players tend to charge towards the objective early and will drop pod on them to gain cover if the objectives are in the open. I use these tendencies against them.


About the railguns. Do you think that they need the D6 armour penning more or higher rates of fire?
Should it be both by making the tank mounted have the extra d6 penning and making the broadsides count as two railguns as opposed to twin-linked?

Do you agree with the restructured stealth units?
Make them 3 strong with either all carrying fusions or burstcannons.
I think at BS 4 (Built in targeting arrays) it would up the units effectiveness to where 3 burst cannons or fusion blasters would get the job done.
Or would you set the squad at 4 suits?

In your opinion, "What area is the Tau currently most in need of improvement?".