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I'm all for seeing them as a unit, perhaps a special retinue for Chaplains or Sanguinary Priests. Having them in every single battle is just as unfluffy as never having them. 5th edition codices have seen the end of 0-1 and required units so presumably they'll end up selectable rather then required.


Jack

I think i remember reading somewhere the the DC were jervis' favorite pet unit, that he created the idea of them and loves them like his own child.

I seriously doubt they will suck.

I agree that *always* having them is just as unfluffy as *never* having them.

A Chaplain retinue is a good idea. It puts them in the HQ slot and wouldn't take an Elites spot. As mentioned, something like Chaplain and 5 DC retinue and +1 per Tac/Dev/Assalt squad. It could also be setup so if you take a Chaplain you must take the 5 man DC retinue.

Blood Angel Chaplains are primarily there to shepherd the Death Company, correct? So having a Chaplain on his own wouldn't make much thematic sense. I'm in favor of the Death Company and Chaplain forming a unit with minimum # of members, + more that can be bought depending on how many other eligible units you've taken. That way there isn't any equipment/ transport issues, each squad doesn't have to be doomed to lose a member, squad sizes are predictable and combat squadding is still possible, and the Blood Angels get to keep their signature unit with it's signature unit size method.

Railguns wrote:Blood Angel Chaplains are primarily there to shepherd the Death Company, correct? So having a Chaplain on his own wouldn't make much thematic sense. I'm in favor of the Death Company and Chaplain forming a unit with minimum # of members, + more that can be bought depending on how many other eligible units you've taken. That way there isn't any equipment/ transport issues, each squad doesn't have to be doomed to lose a member, squad sizes are predictable and combat squadding is still possible, and the Blood Angels get to keep their signature unit with it's signature unit size method.

I say make them a normal unit purchase (with a high model per unit limit if you like) and not bother with any sort of special rules for building the squad. Again player choices are neither fluffy nor unfluffy, and the rules should be balanced on their own merits, and special unit construction rules add only needless complexity.

Jack

There is the issue of keeping the character of the unit. The silly unit composition rules are a direct representation of the nature of the Blood Angels curse; that the eve before battle when they are in meditation, some of them are overcome with visions of their Primarch's death. Taking that away would degrade the character of the Blood Angels. It isn't like we aren't already playing a complicated game. I'm not asking for 2nd edition here.

Yeah I heard about a " 'dex "

I just read a book about the blood angels, i kinda of want a BA army now

I know this is on the edge of heresy.
Set them up like Old Wolf Guard, 1 Elite Choice gives you 3-10 that you can break into smaller uses or attach them to other squads. Every so many give you a “Special Weapon”. Then if you take Character “B” you can take them as Troop Choices.

My idea would be to count them as the Chaplain ( or corbulo's) retinue. minimum unit 5, then allow the player to add +1 extra death company for every infantry or jump infantry unit in the army. Jump packs and special melee weapons can then be paid for like a veteran squad (perhaps). Keeps the unit optional and means each model is paid for, but ties it into the existing fluff.

Thats just how i'd do it though.

I would like for a chaplain to automatically be part of the DC. So you would automatically have a chaplain if you field the DC. I also think DC should have two wounds per Marine and be able to take wargear such as power weapons and power fists. Finally I think the DC should count as 0 killpoints.

G

(Wishlisting on my part)

Death Company

Stats: Same as Vanguard Vets

May take a unit of 5 for 125 points if you include a Chaplin in your Army.

May take an additional death company at a cost of 25 per model. Maximum 10.

Special Rules:

Feel No Pain
Rage (unless accompanied by a Chaplain, confers Rage to any other character that joins the unit)
Furious Charge
Preferred Enemy
Rending
(A special rule worded exactly like the Lone Wolves rules concerning kill points).

One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.



Done. Just make them a unit good enough not to pass up, and you will see them often enough to be fluffy.

DC should just be a unit choice like they used to be. I think that they should get 2 wounds, FNP, Rage, and FC. Rending is slowed and they should be allowed 2 special CCWs. Special rules should be: Same rules mechanic with KPs like Lone Wolves. A chaplain has an option to take them as a retinue. That way you have the option of fielding them as an elite slot...or you can have them in the HQ slot with a chappy.

That way you have the option of fielding them as an elite slot...or you can have them in the HQ slot with a chappy.

You know they will do one or the other, not both.

The more I think about it, the more I think they should a straight elites choice, and let what the chaplians give to that unit be enough incentive to field the combo.

I would also like to see a higher "level" of chaplains in the BA dex, something that combines Chaplains with the stats and wargear allowance of Captians in the current Marine dex.

Chaplains should be to the BA as Rune Preists are to the SW and Librarians are to the SM.

Mahu wrote:One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.

Other then your cost on jump-packs that looks good to me (although I could see giving them a larger then normal unit size), I think a flat unit cost of 30 might be best personally.

Mahu wrote:
Chaplains should be to the BA as Rune Preists are to the SW and Librarians are to the SM.

That's an odd point of view...Chaplains are Chaplains....and most closely equivalent to Wolf Priests not rune priests.

Jack

I am referring to "must-have" HQ's.

A Chaplain version that has 3 wounds and an extensive wargear list, and maybe feel no pain, would go a long way to encourage their use.

Chaplians and Wolf Priests now are nice but tend to be overshadowed by Librarians and Rune Priests.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

Jack

If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

Love your sig.

G

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

That'd be great- it'd fit with the fluff really well too, considering DC are meant to be sent on missions to die (better that than go slowly insane, right?). Make them worth using but carry the KP rule with them. This should encourage BA players to steamroll them into enemy lines

Given the tendency toward 'uber' units in the last few codices, I'd say it's plausible to have DC with 2 wounds each. Expect a full retinue of 10 with a chaplain + packs to run about 500 points, though. =)

I'd take a full size squad of these guys in just about every game, regardless..

I'm very interested to see what they do with BA characters and HQ choices.

Mahu wrote:(Wishlisting on my part)

Death Company

Stats: Same as Vanguard Vets

May take a unit of 5 for 125 points if you include a Chaplin in your Army.

May take an additional death company at a cost of 25 per model. Maximum 10.

Special Rules:

Feel No Pain
Rage (unless accompanied by a Chaplain, confers Rage to any other character that joins the unit)
Furious Charge
Preferred Enemy
Rending
(A special rule worded exactly like the Lone Wolves rules concerning kill points).

One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.



Done. Just make them a unit good enough not to pass up, and you will see them often enough to be fluffy.

The DC should have not too much special rules.
This would make the unit too expensive and possibly a huge point sink.

BA dont need an update
i really dont want to have to re-do my army to change it when the new dex nerfs BA

To be honest, i think the PDF is fine, only suggestion i would make is that the DC get a chappy with them that does not use up a HQ slot
oh, and give the DC back atleast a powerfist

So you enjoy a codex with 0 fluff, extremely few useful options, out of date wargear

and.. captain tycho?

Im glad youre not in the majority.. I want a real codex thanks

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

After coming up against space wolves and their lone wolves I can say that I really would not like to see this. In my opinion the encouragement to run at the enemy would come from excelling at CC. I don't think a person should be worse off for killing their opponent. Fluff or not, the enemy shouldn't want them to survive.

Gridge wrote:I don't think a person should be worse off for killing their opponent. Fluff or not, the enemy shouldn't want them to survive.

I agree, it might make more sense to have them not count as a kill point at all (i.e. only the sane guy leading them counts) and the Death Company itself doesn't matter one way or the other.

Jack

JD21290 wrote:BA dont need an update
i really dont want to have to re-do my army to change it when the new dex nerfs BA

To be honest, i think the PDF is fine, only suggestion i would make is that the DC get a chappy with them that does not use up a HQ slot
oh, and give the DC back atleast a powerfist

Yeah, we need a real codex.
The 3rd ed codex was much better.
On the other hand, BA needs no gimmicks.

The new dex will hopefully not invalidate any changes that people made to their old lists to accommodate that WD army list turd.

15 pnt assault marines please!

What changes do you speak of? Death company are the same models.. honor guard are the same.. veteran assault marines I suppose were *added* with new options

devs same
tacticals same
transports same
assault marines lost flamers but i dont see how that made anyone remodel anything

terminators same
bikes are the same
all vehicles are the same

TYCHO STILL THE SAME!!!! (please invalidate my tycho, make him useful)

Really the only big change were the vets due to lots of options.. but I imagine theyll still be able to use weapons :p

Rather than units contributing models to the DC, have it so the maximum unit size of the DC is attached to the number of other units in the army.

i.e. Chaplain = X points. Comes with 3 DC. You may add one additional DC for every Tactical, Assault, Dev etc unit in your army to a maximum of 10 additional models, for +Y points per model.

There. Reflects the curse of the blood angels, but also doesn't force you to take them, and still gives you some control over unit size. It also stops people taking a massive DC and very little else.

All I can say is hell no to FNP and 2 wounds combined. Unless your talking 600 plus points for the entire unit (including Chaplin).

If you want to get points down and still keep the above, then DC can never go to ground or claim any sort of cover save. Everybody knows how tough it is to get rid of nob bikers. We don't need another mistake like that again.